Cancelling IFR

TheGolfPilot

TheGolfPilot

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Golfpilot
I think I am really overthinking this one.

I was flying on an IFR flight plan in severe VMC weather. As I started to approach the airport I asked for the RNAV with the intention of flying it at around cruising speed, then slow down during my circle to land. As I got near I was asked to slow to 120. It was a 40 knot reduction but I did it anyway just because. Then the controller asked me to turn for spacing. There was a 172 doing a practice approach in front of me. Being inpatient and in a hurry, I responded with "cancel IFR, I am not waiting for this slow guy"
He acknowledged the IFR cancellation and I turned to fly parallel to the approach and pass the 172 on the right. Upon receiving the acknowledged cancellation I literally disregarded every instruction the controller had given me, altitude heading and speed, I am no longer operating under IFR, that is the reason I cancelled.
I was in class E at the time but I got to thinking would it be any different if I was in Class C or Class B. If the controller wanted me to continue following one of those restrictions/clearances would they have to give them to me again as a VFR target. I guess what I am asking is what, and when (if any), does an IFR instruction carry over to VFR once the IFR cancellation is received?
 
In class B & C the controller is still going to give you headings for spacing,not going to do you much good to cancel.
 
I have two thoughts...first is that canceling IFR does not mean you can disregard an ATC instruction. If you are in communication with them, you are obligated to follow the instruction IFR or VFR. Personally I would have clarified my intentions....but I guess you kinda did with "cancel IFR, I am not waiting for this slow guy"

Now, cancelling IFR gives the controller a lot more flexibility as they are no longer bound to maintain the minimum separation as they would if you are IFR. I have had several flights in severe VMC where I basically let the controller know that I could cancel at any time if it helps him with sequencing and gets me in faster...and they have often taken me up on that.

...that is also why I almost always request a visual approach in VMC and just wanna get in.
 
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TheGolfPilot said:
...I responded with "cancel IFR, I am not waiting for this slow guy"
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How crass. I can't believe you said that. You were going to shoot the approach at 180 160 kts? Then slow down in an overhead break, er, I mean circle to land maneuver? What kind of plane were you hot dogging anyway?

dtuuri
 
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Once I acknowledge cancellation of IFR, I do not expect the pilot to follow instructions I issued. My responsibilities for providing radar services end, unless I offer them in the form of flight following. Occasionally, I'll let the pilot know about aircraft in the vicinity.
 
@Shawn If those instructions are in relation to radar approach services, then yes. The tower still calls sequence on the runway regardless of status of aircraft (IFR or VFR).
 
I was "hot dogging" in a 182RG. I was running late with a cashier's check. It's possible the controller wasn't aware I was trying to get somewhere. The slow plane was going like 90 knots from more than 10 miles out and ended up going missed as I was shutting off the radios, parked. The guy had a right to be there and I didn't mind breaking off and passing him on the right, I just had somewhere do be. If I was practicing, being sequenced would have been interesting.

Shawn and Mark thanks for your input! Cool to get input from a controller, mark :)
I felt that I was very clear to the controller i was breaking off and continuing vfr I'm just curious as to what legally from the IFR instructions is carried over through the cancellation.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
What was the need to be in such a hurry and get past the aircraft ahead of you?
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So we should all be flying Cubs? No need to ever go faster than that, right? I mean if at least one person likes to be in Cubs fly that slow, no one should ever be expected to want to go faster than that, right?
 
Well, you didn't do anything illegal, at least nothing that anyone cared about. But I hope the experience triggered some alarm bells about needing to be on the ground in a hurry, so much so that you can't deal with a 172 in front of you. 10 miles at 90 knots would have wasted a whopping 3 minutes of your time. For that 3 minutes, you risked errors due to the hurry. Not good in a retract, especially so far above Vle.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I was "hot dogging" in a 182RG. I was running late with a cashier's check. It's possible the controller wasn't aware I was trying to get somewhere. The slow plane was going like 90 knots from more than 10 miles out and ended up going missed as I was shutting off the radios, parked. The guy had a right to be there and I didn't mind breaking off and passing him on the right, I just had somewhere do be. If I was practicing, being sequenced would have been interesting.

Shawn and Mark thanks for your input! Cool to get input from a controller, mark :)
I felt that I was very clear to the controller i was breaking off and continuing vfr I'm just curious as to what legally from the IFR instructions is carried over through the cancellation.
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They're not IFR instructions if you've canceled. You still have to comply with ATC instructions while VFR in controlled airspace. Chief Counsel clarified this years ago in a letter.

Now, whether or not a controller has the authority to issue you instructions in airspace that doesn't have any separation standards is a whole other issue.
 
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TheGolfPilot said:
I was "hot dogging" in a 182RG. I was running late with a cashier's check.
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It's a good thing there WAS a controller. Doing that at an uncontrolled field, you might have flown right up the guy's exhaust stack before you even saw him.

dtuuri
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I think I am really overthinking this one.

I was flying on an IFR flight plan in severe VMC weather. As I started to approach the airport I asked for the RNAV with the intention of flying it at around cruising speed, then slow down during my circle to land. As I got near I was asked to slow to 120. It was a 40 knot reduction but I did it anyway just because. Then the controller asked me to turn for spacing. There was a 172 doing a practice approach in front of me. Being inpatient and in a hurry, I responded with "cancel IFR, I am not waiting for this slow guy"
He acknowledged the IFR cancellation and I turned to fly parallel to the approach and pass the 172 on the right. Upon receiving the acknowledged cancellation I literally disregarded every instruction the controller had given me, altitude heading and speed, I am no longer operating under IFR, that is the reason I cancelled.
I was in class E at the time but I got to thinking would it be any different if I was in Class C or Class B. If the controller wanted me to continue following one of those restrictions/clearances would they have to give them to me again as a VFR target. I guess what I am asking is what, and when (if any), does an IFR instruction carry over to VFR once the IFR cancellation is received?
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What was the destination airport?
 
Shawn said:
I have two thoughts...first is that canceling IFR does not mean you can disregard an ATC instruction. If you are in communication with them, you are obligated to follow the instruction IFR or VFR. Personally I would have clarified my intentions....but I guess you kinda did with "cancel IFR, I am not waiting for this slow guy"

Now, cancelling IFR gives the controller a lot more flexibility as they are no longer bound to maintain the minimum separation as they would if you are IFR. I have had several flights in severe VMC where I basically let the controller know that I could cancel at any time if it helps him with sequencing and gets me in faster...and they have often taken me up on that.

...that is also why I almost always request a visual approach in VMC and just wanna get in.
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Canceling IFR in airspace where ATC has no responsibility to provide separation to VFR aircraft leaves ATC without reason or authority to issue any instructions.
 
AggieMike88 said:
What was the need to be in such a hurry and get past the aircraft ahead of you?
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TheGolfPilot said:
I was "hot dogging" in a 182RG. I was running late with a cashier's check.
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Ah, a common recipe with off-the-shelf ingredients. 2 cups "I have a fast airplane and need to show it off even if it only saves me a minute or two." Add a tablespoon of missionitis and an optional dash of questionable advance planning.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Ah, a common recipe with off-the-shelf ingredients. 2 cups "I have a fast airplane and need to show it off even if it only saves me a minute or two." Add a tablespoon of missionitis and an optional dash of questionable advance planning.
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I'm gonna disagree, when I'm flying the approach almost twice as fast as the airplane ahead of me, and I can safely make it around them by cancelling, I'm not going to go into slow flight because they can't keep their speed up.

I will be shut down and out of the airplane before they even touch down if we both hit the IAF at the same and they are in a 172.
 
EdFred said:
I'm gonna disagree, when I'm flying the approach almost twice as fast as the airplane ahead of me, and I can safely make it around them by cancelling, I'm not going to go into slow flight because they can't keep their speed up.

I will be shut down and out of the airplane before they even touch down if we both hit the IAF at the same and they are in a 172.
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180 knots is not a normal approach speed for a 182RG. And similarly, 90 knots is well above slow flight. If he were behind a Cub doing 50, you'd have a point.

It's a good thing CCR has parallel runways, 'cause the eventual gear-up won't close the airport. Hurry is not a good thing.
 
MAKG1 said:
180 knots is not a normal approach speed for a 182RG. And similarly, 90 knots is well above slow flight. If he were behind a Cub doing 50, you'd have a point.

It's a good thing CCR has parallel runways, 'cause the eventual gear-up won't close the airport. Hurry is not a good thing.
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I'm generally flying my approaches at 140kts IAS in the Comanche until I have to drop the gear which is after the FAF. I don't get down below 90kts until I'm within 1/4 mile of the runway threshold. Toss in a 20kt headwind on approach 125kt GS / 70kt GS = almost twice as fast.

Faster != gear up when you have a routine. Maybe for the less intelligent, or those trying to sell a plane for 3 years...

Just because YOU aren't capable of doing things at a higher velocity does not mean others aren't. Fly the same plane for 7 years, rather than bouncing from plane to plane and your perception will change.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
IUpon receiving the acknowledged cancellation I literally disregarded every instruction the controller had given me, altitude heading and speed, I am no longer operating under IFR, that is the reason I cancelled.
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You probably also heard Cessna Nxxx squawk 1200 and resume own navigation if you were not in controlled airspace. And possibly another traffic advisory if the controller is not too busy.

If you are in controlled airspace, then you should maintain last instruction and request deviation....

Straight in to runway doing 180kts in a 182? Isnt VNE around 180kt for the 182RG? or was this ground speed with a tail wind on final??...
 
Caramon13 said:
Where are you guys getting 180 knots? Do the math, 120 + 40 = 160.
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Some people like to make up numbers because they don't use their heads.

A lot of people fly that 172 at 90kts for the approach (I was actually taught slower at 75KTIAS) so the first inclination for those that don't think and just like to vomit out crap is to multiply by two when they read almost twice as fast. I happen to fly my approaches in the Comanche at about 140-145kts until I need to drop the gear. I don't know what parts of the country other people live in, but in my part of it, I have this thing called wind, and 20kts at altitude is quite common. We also generally fly approaches/land into the wind where I come from. So, that 172 chugging along at 90KTAS is getting 70kts GS. I fly mine at 145kts until gear drop, which is 125kts GS with that same 20kt wind. 125kts/70kts = 1.78 , to me that's almost twice as fast. And if someone flies that approach at 75kts, that's 55kts vs 125kts which is more than twice as fast.

I hope wherever the 180kts came from, they wash their hands before eating anything.
 
I'm surprised so many people are freaking out about this. You said you were on the ramp shutting down when the guy went missed. Your actions had no impact on the arrival of the other aircraft. As long as you had good SA on where the other plane was when you overtook and you felt like you got it down safely, then I am baffled as to what people are upset about. It sounds like the other plane flew the approach unnaturally slowly. 90kts from 10nm out is going to make for extensive occupancy time in the final approach corridor.

For reasons I'll never understand, pilots seem to feel like flying an approach slowly is 'easier' or is 'more safe', when really, gear extension speeds notwithstanding, it just takes a "a lot longer."

Your question was whether the speed/heading restrictions carried over after canceling IFR. The answer becomes obvious when you consider that while you're IFR, ATC is separating you from other IFR aircraft. Therefore, if you're VFR and you're in airspace where VFR isn't separated from IFR, there is no reason as to why those instructions would need to be in effect. Steven nailed it in his response.
 
Caramon13 said:
Where are you guys getting 180 knots? Do the math, 120 + 40 = 160.
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:oops: My mistake. Made the correction. Doesn't change my opinion that slower is better when approaching an airport no matter how good you THINK your eyes are.

dtuuri
 
I flew a full approach at 90 with a CFII once. The reasoning was that it's an approach, you should take your time and do it right, not go blazing through at cruise speed. So I get it, and those people who wanna do that, awesome.

Every other instructor I've flown with has had me fly all the segments at normal cruise and start slowing down on the FAS or be AT 90 by the FAF. After all, if that's your approach speed your times are based on that.

I prefer the second approach and in reality I probably won't be slowing down to 90 until just before the FAF or on the FAS. 90 from 10 miles out is a bit ...slow. The only reason TO slow down would be to conserve fuel, harsh IMC conditions, more control needed, etc.

One approach I did into KVNC while I was getting my IFR I did at 90 IAS and we had such a huge headwind, I was making about 65 GS.

I don't think the OP did anything wrong regulation-wise, but I think the WAY in which he did it, comments that he made about the slow plane, etc makes it seem a bit off-putting.
 
My plane really doesn't like to fly at 90kts. I fly it at what's comfortable for me, and the plane. I set my MP, and it just turns out that I'm in that 140kt range. Comanches don't really want to slow down and go down. As far as the cancelling and telling the controller he's cancelling for slow traffic, that's kinda horse's ass. Of course the way to avoid all of this is as soon as you are VMC and know you'll be VMC to the airport is to cancel, and then you don't have to worry about it.
 
EdFred said:
Some people...don't use their heads.

...so the first inclination for those that don't think and just like to vomit out crap...

I don't know what parts of the country other people live in, but in my part of it, I have this thing called wind...

We also generally fly approaches/land into the wind where I come from.

I hope wherever the 180kts came from, they wash their hands before eating anything.
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Welcome back, Mr. Congeniality.

dtuuri
 
EdFred said:
My plane really doesn't like to fly at 90kts. I fly it at what's comfortable for me, and the plane. I set my MP, and it just turns out that I'm in that 140kt range. Comanches don't really want to slow down and go down. As far as the cancelling and telling the controller he's cancelling for slow traffic, that's kinda horse's ass. Of course the way to avoid all of this is as soon as you are VMC and know you'll be VMC to the airport is to cancel, and then you don't have to worry about it.
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Well, he's a low time pilot in a new-to-him type, in a hurry, with attention to detail that allows him to show up at an instrument checkride with insufficient cross country time and ask about IFR rules after doing something. He operates at a very busy airport with a lot of student pilots and helicopter traffic, with all the instrument approaches in an alert area filled with student C-5 pilots.

Does that change your answer? It sure sets off my alarm bells.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, he's a low time pilot in a new-to-him type, in a hurry, with attention to detail that allows him to show up at an instrument checkride with insufficient cross country time and ask about IFR rules after doing something. He operates at a very busy airport with a lot of student pilots and helicopter traffic, with all the instrument approaches in an alert area filled with student C-5 pilots.

Does that change your answer? It sure sets off my alarm bells.
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I don't keep a dossier on people to know what their time and hours between getting the ticket and now is or where they are based out of. Nothing in the original post indicated his experience in the system or the aircraft, or which airport he was flying into. It still doesn't change my answer on cancelling as soon as VMC is certain all the way to the airport, however.
 
dtuuri said:
:oops: My mistake. Made the correction. Doesn't change my opinion that slower is better when approaching an airport no matter how good you THINK your eyes are.

dtuuri
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You can't argue people into being courteous in the traffic pattern. Either they are or they aren't.

Besides, don't you know if you choose to slow down to 100 in the pattern when your airplane is capable of 160, you are not a real pilot?
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, he's a low time pilot in a new-to-him type, in a hurry, with attention to detail that allows him to show up at an instrument checkride with insufficient cross country time and ask about IFR rules after doing something. He operates at a very busy airport with a lot of student pilots and helicopter traffic, with all the instrument approaches in an alert area filled with student C-5 pilots.

Does that change your answer? It sure sets off my alarm bells.
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I have about 100 hours in type over the last 2 years. about another 100 hours over those past two years in other aircraft. 500 hours total. Sure I am low-time somewhat low-time but I don't consider myself to be new to the 182RG. I understand the plane pretty well and what I did was under control not just wild maneuvering. I file IFR most places for the traffic advisories and tracking. My original post was asking a hypothetical question and I gave a little bit of background on why I was asking. I didn't think the thread would turn into a judgement about the little background story.
I never showed up to a checkride with insufficient anything...??? not sure where you got that. and I am also not asking about IFR rules. I know what I did was legal and the way I did it was safe. I cancelled the second I saw a 172 putting half speed down the airport's approach and instead of electing to slow way down and follow I cancelled and passed. I am asking a question you don't know the answer too and you inject yourself into the conversation by belittling me.. thank you.
 
Typical POA...everyone bashing the OP for the context and trying to prove who is a superior aviator rather than answering the actual question.

No wonder this place is dying.
 
The question was answered already. We've covered this topic a million times on POA before.
 
midlifeflyer said:
You can't argue people into being courteous in the traffic pattern. Either they are or they aren't.

Besides, don't you know if you choose to slow down to 100 in the pattern when your airplane is capable of 160, you are not a real pilot?
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10 miles out is "in the traffic pattern" ? Didn't the CC issue a statement saying somewhere around 3-5 was the cutoff for what would be the pattern? If I pass someone 10nm from the airport at almost double the ground speed how is that being discourteous? Do you follow someone going exactly the speed limit for 5 miles on the interstate when you can pass them and get off on your exit without affecting their driving at all?
 
Shawn said:
Typical POA...everyone bashing the OP for the context and trying to prove who is a superior aviator rather than answering the actual question.

No wonder this place is dying.
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"I think I am really overthinking this one.

I was flying..."

The OP was really flying or the OP was dreaming he was flying? I thought the former and thought the radio comment was tactless. When you know there's traffic up ahead, it's time to slow down and be watchful. Now, if the traffic is in sight... Anyway, I've sped up on airports at high speed even with an extra set of eyes and come to the conclusion it isn't a good practice. Just trying to help prevent another kind of bash.

dtuuri
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I have about 100 hours in type over the last 2 years. about another 100 hours over those past two years in other aircraft. 500 hours total. Sure I am low-time somewhat low-time but I don't consider myself to be new to the 182RG. I understand the plane pretty well and what I did was under control not just wild maneuvering. I file IFR most places for the traffic advisories and tracking. My original post was asking a hypothetical question and I gave a little bit of background on why I was asking. I didn't think the thread would turn into a judgement about the little background story.
I never showed up to a checkride with insufficient anything...??? not sure where you got that. and I am also not asking about IFR rules. I know what I did was legal and the way I did it was safe. I cancelled the second I saw a 172 putting half speed down the airport's approach and instead of electing to slow way down and follow I cancelled and passed. I am asking a question you don't know the answer too and you inject yourself into the conversation by belittling me.. thank you.
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I got your checkride screw up from this:
TheGolfPilot said:
I forgot about this requirement and at about 3pm the day before my checkride I realized I was 5 hours short and took a cessna 150 from el paso to sante fe and back to get those hours ended up being 5.5. The FAA guy made a comment about how I might have been able to drive faster but didn't care
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You're right it was JUST ahead of your checkride. Which means you made it through mock checkride, IACRA, and an instructor sign off, without ever checking the requirements. I don't know about you, but I kept pretty careful watch over requirements during my instrument training. Most of us even have XC columns in our logbooks.

No, you didn't break any regs that anyone cares about, but the hurry is going to cause some hurt for you or others. It does not belong in the air.
 
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It may have seemed like hurry in the post but I wasn't stressing the hurry in a way outside of normal operations I just had a plane built to go faster . I just had a faster plane and the 25% decrease in speed + vectors just seemed totally unnecessary, especially since I saw the other plane, could pass it safely, and could enter the downwind in normal fashion. The 182RG, for those not aware, will pick up to 160 IAS on a 500fpm decsent while maintaining a MP at the bottom of the green arc. Once level, hopefully on the downwind, the plane quickly slows to just below 140 where you put the gear down then after, the first set of flaps. The 182RG would have a very uncomfortable pitch up if flaps go down before the gear. There would also be an uncomforting sound if you try to slow down by reducing throttle (also could cause some shock cooling).

I just wanted to resume normal speed. I wasn't doing anything unusual. But in resuming normal speed I was nearly doubling the other aircraft's speed.

I have never failed a checkride and my last checkride was 4 years and couple hundred hours ago. I don't understand what you are attacking there MAKG1.
 
If that engine is carbureted, you might want to pull the carb heat and let the throttle down.

I can't descend sensibly in the Cardinal RG either clean with the throttle at the bottom of the green. I just think it's a really bad idea to descend routinely above Vno, as some terrain turbulence can ruin your whole day.

I'll descend with MP down to 14 inches for that reason, at 500 FPM. If that's enough to set off the gear horn, you need it tuned. I believe the 182RGs use throttle position, and it should correspond to more like 12 inches.

Lots of people responded to what you posted, which indicated a guy in a huge hurry treating others like they were in your way. Whether that's really what happened only you and other participants know, but it sure came across that way. That you're holding a cashier's check should be irrelevant to your flying.
 
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