Complex a/c requirement for commercial..just venting

[ujocka]

I have private SEL/MEL/Instrument but see that I still must demonstrate the use of a complex a/c for the SEL commercial checkride. I noticed that if I already had the commercial MEL I would not be required to demonstrate proficiency in a complex a/c. What gives? Do commercial MEL pilots make the wheels go up and down faster than private MEL folks? I'm just venting because I have to use, rent, and learn the systems of an a/c (172RG) that I probably won't fly again, just for this.

I know that commercial pilots are supposed to have more detailed knowledge of systems, but what does that have to do with the flight portion of a checkride? The wheels go up/down and the prop goes from low to high pitch the same whether you are private or commercial. I'm sure my oral will cover at least 3 of the systems quite thoroughly. Like I said, I'm ranting.

Maybe one of you can enlighten me on something I hadn't thought about to rationalize this.

 

[James331]

Well saying make this gear go up and down and props go forward and back is one thing, being able to push levers and lift knobs is one thing, being able to bring it all together to demonstrate you know how to make it all sing, al la a simulated engine failure to a precision landing, what do do with said gear and props, when and why, and pull it off to the point you're working all that with mastery of said aircrafts inside of PTS standards, that's a CPL.

Even if you're just getting your CPL as something to do and don't intend to use it as a career pilot, it is the certificate of someone who may one day be flying my family around.

 

[ujocka]

How is the PTS standard any different in the demonstration of using a complex aircraft? If I used two a/c for my SEL commercial I would only be demonstrating the use of the complex a/c to show competency in using the gear, knowledge of emergency extension, and use of the prop. I've already done that with my private MEL, far more extensively then for .3 on a checkride.

 

[gasfiltered]

Since you already have to rent another plane, why not just rent a twin and knock out CMEL on the same checkride. Then you can demonstrate to an examiner that you have a full understanding of the implications, uses, and dangers of the drag created by gear/prop/flaps, which is far different than convincing a CFI that you won't gear-up a rental plane.

 

[JustinD]

you don't need to do the entire check ride in the complex aircraft. where i instructed before this students would do the landings and the simulated engine out in the complex and do all the maneuvers in the non complex. this helped to cut down on cost during training so as not to require a complex aircraft while doing the air work as well as for the check ride

 

[James331]

you don't need to do the entire check ride in the complex aircraft. where i instructed before this students would do the landings and the simulated engine out in the complex and do all the maneuvers in the non complex. this helped to cut down on cost during training so as not to require a complex aircraft while doing the air work as well as for the check ride

Always been a do it all in the same plane kinda guy, got comfy in one airframe and be done with it.

This two plane business has always reminded me of they "hey I know a shortcut" thing.

 

[JustinD]

Always been a do it all in the same plane kinda guy, got comfy in one airframe and be done with it.

This two plane business has always reminded me of they "hey I know a shortcut" thing.

I happen to agree in that regard, which is why i did my multi-commercial initial then did single commercial add on. But I was instructing at a 141 school and thats how the course was written for those who chose to do the single commercial first. Some students liked it, some students would have preferred it all to be in one plane.

 

[denverpilot]

I've been debating the one plane vs two thing. After all the hours I have in my airplane it fits like a glove.

I also have over 50 hours in 172RGs in the logbook long ago, and they're not bad for being underpowered dogs that the flight schools just beat the holy hell out of around here just for these checkrides and little more.

The hassle of doing the two airplane thing will probably mean I don't bother with it though.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I have private SEL/MEL/Instrument but see that I still must demonstrate the use of a complex a/c for the SEL commercial checkride. I noticed that if I already had the commercial MEL I would not be required to demonstrate proficiency in a complex a/c. What gives? Do commercial MEL pilots make the wheels go up and down faster than private MEL folks? I'm just venting because I have to use, rent, and learn the systems of an a/c (172RG) that I probably won't fly again, just for this.

I know that commercial pilots are supposed to have more detailed knowledge of systems, but what does that have to do with the flight portion of a checkride? The wheels go up/down and the prop goes from low to high pitch the same whether you are private or commercial. I'm sure my oral will cover at least 3 of the systems quite thoroughly. Like I said, I'm ranting.

Maybe one of you can enlighten me on something I hadn't thought about to rationalize this.

You demonstrated the ability to fly a single-engine airplane for your Private SEL...why should you have to demonstrate that again? Why can't you get your commercial SEL in a multi?

 

[ujocka]

You demonstrated the ability to fly a single-engine airplane for your Private SEL...why should you have to demonstrate that again? Why can't you get your commercial SEL in a multi?

Apparently you read something that no one else did. I asked why I should have to demonstrate the ability to use a complex a/c again when I've already done that. If I had a commercial MEL instead of a private MEL I would be able to do the comm SEL in a fixed gear non complex a/c, which is what I own. My point was that there is no difference in the mechanics of operating a complex a/c at the private MEL vs commercial MEL level. The PTS is exactly the same in those areas. I'm not talking about the maneuvers, just the operation of the complex a/c. back.

 

[nosehair]

Well saying make this gear go up and down and props go forward and back is one thing, being able to push levers and lift knobs is one thing, being able to bring it all together to demonstrate you know how to make it all sing, al la a simulated engine failure to a precision landing, what do do with said gear and props, when and why, and pull it off to the point you're working all that with mastery of said aircrafts inside of PTS standards, that's a CPL.

Even if you're just getting your CPL as something to do and don't intend to use it as a career pilot, it is the certificate of someone who may one day be flying my family around.

This was your answer that you don't want to hear. The commercial PTS standards are higher than the Private PTS standards. Your CFI should be explaining and preping you on that level.
If you have the mindset that a Private demo level is equal to a commercial demo in a multi...

 

[MauleSkinner]

Apparently you read something that no one else did. I asked why I should have to demonstrate the ability to use a complex a/c again when I've already done that. If I had a commercial MEL instead of a private MEL I would be able to do the comm SEL in a fixed gear non complex a/c, which is what I own. My point was that there is no difference in the mechanics of operating a complex a/c at the private MEL vs commercial MEL level. The PTS is exactly the same in those areas. I'm not talking about the maneuvers, just the operation of the complex a/c. back.

There's no difference in the mechanics of operating a single engine airplane either way...it's just the maneuvers that are different, and they're easy enough to do in a multi.

It seems to be the same argument you're making about complex airplanes. The PTS requirement is unreasonable, you shouldn't have to comply with it.

 

[brcase]

One problem the requirement addresses is some DPE's have complained to me that they are seeing CFI applicants that have only flown two types of airplanes. Something like a Cherokee and and Arrow. If the complex requirement goes away they could do it all in just a Cherokee. However I agree it is a silly requirement to have to demonstrate competency in a complex airplane for the commercial checkride. That is what Complex endorsement it for.

Brian

 

[ujocka]

This was your answer that you don't want to hear. The commercial PTS standards are higher than the Private PTS standards. Your CFI should be explaining and preping you on that level.
If you have the mindset that a Private demo level is equal to a commercial demo in a multi...

When you say demo what are you referring to? If I took my commercial SEL in two planes, a fixed gear for the maneuvers and a complex solely to demonstrate the use of a complex a/c, I'd be using the complex for about .3 of the checkride. What high level skill are you referring to that I would need to demonstrate in that .3 that I had not done on my 1.5 hr checkride in the multi?

I am open to reasonable responses based on valid information, and that is why I created this post. Your information is either dated, or you aren't explaining your position very well. Maybe your opinion is that the FAA always knows exactly what it is doing and has a reason for everything. My experience says otherwise.

 

[Witmo]

I've been waiting a year for my school's Arrow to be repaired so I can take the commercial checkride. I've found that the "complex" airplane is in many ways easier to fly than the non-complex SEL airplane I've been training in. There's a few more checklist items but the increased power and lower drag actually makes some of the maneuvers easier IMHO. I think the requirement to demonstrate I can takeoff and land a complex aircraft for the commercial license is essentially superfluous since that's what the endorsement documents. The fact that I have a complex endorsement should be enough especially since most of the checkride can be accomplished in a non-complex aircraft. I have an instrument rating and no instrument procedures are required for the commercial even though having an instrument rating gives me additional privileges as a commercial pilot. You don't need a high performance aircraft for the commercial checkride and I believe the complex aircraft requirement should be treated the same. They can easily require the endorsements as a prerequisite to taking the checkride without having to use a complex or HP aircraft on the checkride. A chandelle is a chandelle.

 

[denverpilot]

One problem the requirement addresses is some DPE's have complained to me that they are seeing CFI applicants that have only flown two types of airplanes. Something like a Cherokee and and Arrow. If the complex requirement goes away they could do it all in just a Cherokee. However I agree it is a silly requirement to have to demonstrate competency in a complex airplane for the commercial checkride. That is what Complex endorsement it for.

Brian

Especially considering many DPEs will allow the ride to be split.

Can already do a large percentage in one airplane and then go around the pattern three times playing with your handle (see what I did there?) to finish it off (again, see what I did there? Haha.)

And if you fly in a circle and jerk your handle at least three times, what's that called, kids? Make sure your jerking the right handle!

On a more serious note, the best I ever felt about dealing with the gear was after about four or five XCs where you had a nice long couple of hours to "forget" about it and you got to see your training kick in and your checklist use be fruitful at the far end. Running around the pattern playing gear up/gear down and building a few habits is of course, necessary, but my unnecessary nervousness about the gear -- there should always be wariness about gear but not nervousness -- went away after bombing around in that beautiful club 172RG for 50 hours all over the country.

Ingrained habits then make the 0.3+- to run around the pattern for the Commerical kinda superfluous like you say, but it's the only place in the check ride curriculum where they get to list it as something they checked, for when you finally do slide one to a stop and the press says, "Did you confirm their training on this?" to a bureaucrat.

Nowadays the rental places would lose their minds if I took an RG on week long trips like I did back then, cheap. We pilots keep wrecking them and nobody is making many.