Wife wants me to get IR, but I'm not so sure

Thanks for the replies folks. Yeah, proficiency is the biggie. I try to be honest with myself about my own flying skills. I'm not seeking to take my family on coast to coast trips over mountains in hard IFR.

I'm flying on Pilot Edge so I'm pretty comfortable with procedures and flying in the system. My biggest worry is dealing with Spacial Disorientation (since I've never REALLY experienced it). I've had about 15 hours of hood work so far but no real IMC.

I can say that if I were to take the fam on a long X/C I would first take a solo flight or two to knock off any rust and fly the trip in the sim once or twice to get used to the route and unfamiliar airports.

I'm haunted by things like the recent Lance that went down over Bakersfield. IIRC, the pilot had his IR and then we hear a recording of his MAYDAY call while hearing his children screaming in the back. Stuff like that keeps me up at night...
 
CCluck said:
An IR will not make you a "better pilot" - that's just what the IR guys say to validate their choice to pursue it.QUOTE]

Well seems the insurance companies respect and reward a pilot they insure when acquiring the rating. And they operate AND charge by statistics right?
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While I think your wife is overimagining the importance of the IR on a typical sunny day, I will agree with others and say that the IR does make you a better pilot - for all the reasons already stated.

Lots of people have irrational fears about flying in small (and sometimes ANY) airplanes. You wife may be 'moving the goal posts' because she's afraid. I do not think that, in general, the IR should be some kind of minimum requirement for others to consider a pilot suddenly 'safe'. IR pilots crash too, and at about the same rate as VFR-only pilots IIRC.

The real question is whether YOU are safe. Discuss your safety margins with her. What are the critical safety factors and how much margin do you keep around them? Discuss your procedures, etc. If she's still unwilling then it's probably an irrational fear and once you get your IR she'll move the goal posts again and require a CPL. :D
 
I think getting an instrument rating does make you a better pilot. You have to understand more about how the airspace works and learn more how to communicate with ATC. Also, its fun to fly in a cloud. Now as for its "usefullness", that may be debatable. And it certainly is costly to get the rating, have and keep the instruments repaired, stay current. Thats why most let it lapse. But they are still better off. If the have to, they can fly in a cloud and not get turned upsidedown and tehy are no longer afraid of IMC. Just my observations. You will have to decide if its worth it.
 
Whether people here believe or not in IR, you should get it for sure. It does offer a higher level of pilot education and you will see it once you're half-way through the training.

And if your wife requested it, even better, now you don't have to sell it to her! :)

Go for it.
 
We need to get the implied value judgement out of these discussions - really, does the word better have any relevance here ?

I'be got a friend that does aerobatics and can spot-land his taildragger biplane on a dime in a cow pasture but thinks San Antonio to Waco is an epic cross country and hasn't had a minute of simulated instrument time since his student days.

Another aquaintance routinely flys to the left coast IFR but says he has not done a 45 degree bank turn since his IR checkride and thinks 3500' is a short runway.

Who's the "better" pilot ? Both are well within their personal risk acceptance envelope and flying the missions they choose.

My real point is that each of us should train for what we do, or intend to do, with some extra training towards surviving the unexpected.

OK, so Biplane guy might someday profit from a little hood time, while IFR guy might appreciate a bit of extra maneuvering practice. But I'm sure not gonna say one is better than the other ......
 
CCluck said:
An IR will not make you a "better pilot" - that's just what the IR guys say to validate their choice to pursue it.
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I am not going to go into too much depth on that statement, as it really is a matter of semantics as to what is a better pilot. I will say that the instrument training does give some tools for use in the VFR world that will add to you capabilities and safety. A small example: I was flying VFR with flight following to a busy class C with lots of UPS flights coming in, they were landing on parallel runways. I was given a specific vector with instructions to turn left to intercept the runway, and was cleared to land several miles out. I was given the explicit instruction not to cross the center line of my assigned runway due to conflicting heavy metal landing on the parallel runway. So how to make sure? Easy, pull out the chart, dial of the correct localizer frequency, intercept the LOC, and track it inbounds. No problem.

No doubt there will be some emphasis on things you might not need VFR, or might not get much use out of, but I am hard pressed to think of anything in the curriculum, aside from when an IFR flight plan or an IFR rating is required, and what the IFR currency requirements are, that wouldn't be helpful for a VFR pilot to have.
 
PPC1052 said:
I was given a specific vector with instructions to turn left to intercept the runway, and was cleared to land several miles out. I was given the explicit instruction not to cross the center line of my assigned runway due to conflicting heavy metal landing on the parallel runway. So how to make sure? Easy, pull out the chart, dial of the correct localizer frequency, intercept the LOC, and track it inbounds. No problem.
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Or look out the porthole.:hairraise:
 
labbadabba said:
So, my wife refuses to fly with me and she won't let me take the kids up unless I have an IR. I'm tempted to call her bluff, to the point where I've begun some serious study and work towards my rating.

Problem is, I don't/can't fly enough to stay current/proficient. Legal, yeah, I could probably stay legal. I do a lot of sim flying to keep my skills sharp between hops but in terms of having my butt strapped in with the spinney thing out front going, I get maybe a 2 hours a month on average.
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Let me make sure I understand...your wife wants you to get your IFR rating, but you think you need to fly a lot more often in order to get steady with the stick and be able to do what she wants?

And you call this a problem?
 
bflynn said:
Let me make sure I understand...your wife wants you to get your IFR rating, but you think you need to fly a lot more often in order to get steady with the stick and be able to do what she wants?

And you call this a problem?
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On a sunny nonconvective calm wind day? Yes he has a problem, a marital problem. If someone's wife refused to drive with them unless they got a CDL would you agree with her?
 
Phoenix said:
On a sunny nonconvective calm wind day? Yes he has a problem, a marital problem. If someone's wife refused to drive with them unless they got a CDL would you agree with her?
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No, I think he got POA'ed. If someone's wife refused to drive with them while they had a learner's permit and they were only driving 2 hours a month, I'd say she made a good choice.

His wife wants him to fly more. She wants him to get an IFR rating. I say that's a keeper.
 
bflynn said:
No, I think he got POA'ed. If someone's wife refused to drive with them while they had a learner's permit and they were only driving 2 hours a month, I'd say she made a good choice.

His wife wants him to fly more. She wants him to get an IFR rating. I say that's a keeper.
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The problem is deferring any authority over the safety of children to a unilateral party.

If he says it is safe to fly with his children, she should have no right to insist otherwise. Similarly, if she deems it is safe to take the kids to a trampoline park, he should have no right to insist otherwise.

Too many marriages have gone from a partnership to a pure deferral onto the wife to make all important child rearing decisions. It is, yet again, another reason why the latest generation of children are growing up all screwed up. They need both parents, not a mom and a yes man.
 
labbadabba said:
I'm haunted by things like the recent Lance that went down over Bakersfield. IIRC, the pilot had his IR and then we hear a recording of his MAYDAY call while hearing his children screaming in the back. Stuff like that keeps me up at night...
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It haunts a lot of us, but it's clear at this time that he was not instrument rated, but rather had taken a couple of hours of training beyond private pilot. Some of us locals suspect he was relying on an autopilot to keep his family safe and got confused when encountering rising air, hence the really high speeds without much altitude loss, and could not hold a heading nor altitude without it.
 
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How about a deal:

1 You get your instrument rating
2 She promises to nag you to fly at least once a week.
 
SkyHog said:
The problem is deferring any authority over the safety of children to a unilateral party.
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Before we get too deep into this territory, I'll say I'm not deferring to my wife, I've consulted with her on this; that is her position and I respect that. I'm actually the primary care-giver for my kids since my she's is in grad school and working on the side so I'm more heavily involved with our kids on a day-to-day basis than she.

That said, I'm not taking anyone up who isn't comfortable with it. It's not worth the aggravation and it adds extra stress to me as the pilot and the dad in this case. If getting the IR makes my PAX more comfortable getting in a plane with me then that is that.

I think it's a foregone conclusion that I will have my IR at some point in the (hopefully not too distant) future. My main worry is those who raise the point that an IR pilot who is not current/proficient may be more dangerous than your average VFR pilot. With my wife in school and both my kids in full-time daycare time and flying funds aren't there in ready supply so I have to be judicious with my flying. Staying current and keeping my skills razor sharp will be a challenge.

Someday, I'd much rather discuss my trips to the Black Hills or to Florida on POA than be another post of some guy who got his family killed with everyone speculating why in the world did this pilot even have an IR if he couldn't stay proficient.

...One of these days, I'm going to finish reading The Killing Zone...
 
Paul Hamilton said:
How about a deal:

1 You get your instrument rating
2 She promises to nag you to fly at least once a week.
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Yes. It's usually how I justify my flying these days. I've also somewhat fibbed that I have to do a currency flight at least every 30 days. While it's not in the CFRs it is one of my personal mins so I guess it's not technically a fib...
 
An IR pilot who is not current is not less safe in VMC than a VFR pilot.

And it's really not true in IMC.

What can happen if you don't pay attention is that you can launch into IMC when you're not ready for it. This is where personal minimums come in, as they always do. If you're not proficient, your minimums should be VMC or with an instructor.
 
My wife made it requirement for me to when getting my PPL that I needed to get my IR ticket based on the fact her father (who was a very experienced VFR pilot) passed away scud running.

So I did, but I have a word of caution. Getting your Instrument rating will make you a better and safer pilot BUT it will also added a whole larger level of risk and complexity with flight planning if you intend to use it in actual instrument conditions.

I feel that Go/no go decisions were a lot easier to make as a VFR only pilot and now I look at 10 times the information before I decide to go wheels up if IFR.
 
bflynn said:
No, I think he got POA'ed. If someone's wife refused to drive with them while they had a learner's permit and they were only driving 2 hours a month, I'd say she made a good choice.

His wife wants him to fly more. She wants him to get an IFR rating. I say that's a keeper.
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for true safety, he should buy his own plane so he's super familiar with the controls and instruments
 
MyassisDragon said:
So I did, but I have a word of caution. Getting your Instrument rating will make you a better and safer pilot BUT it will also added a whole larger level of risk and complexity with flight planning if you intend to use it in actual instrument conditions.
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Exactly a question I raised earlier, yeah the IR will give me more tools as a VFR pilot but it will also adjust my minimums. I'm a chicken**** pilot in that I tend to be very conscientious about my flying. So I'd like to think that my ADM wouldn't be adversely affected.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one who has encountered this.
 
MAKG1 said:
An IR pilot who is not current is not less safe in VMC than a VFR pilot.

And it's really not true in IMC.

What can happen if you don't pay attention is that you can launch into IMC when you're not ready for it. This is where personal minimums come in, as they always do. If you're not proficient, your minimums should be VMC or with an instructor.
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This is what it boils down to. I'll need to re-adjust my minimums and go from them. Thanks all for the input!
 
labbadabba said:
This is what it boils down to. I'll need to re-adjust my minimums and go from them. Thanks all for the input!
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Not necessarily. Get the IR, and just keep VFR minimums for your personal minimum. No added risk.
 
True safety includes the money and time to land and get a hotel and wait out the bad weather.
 
labbadabba said:
Fair enough, but there are plenty of IR pilots VMC->IMC who buy the farm. Yes, I'll have more tools but will knowing that have an IR affect my ADM? I'd like to think not.
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When I got my instrument rating (over twenty years ago), I was immediately aware that I was suddenly licensed to get into all kinds of trouble. This made it clear that I needed to be especially careful to make sound go/no-go decisions about weather. Later, I saw that I needed be honest with myself about when I was proficient and when I was not, and adjust my risk tolerance accordingly. You strike me as being the type of person who would do the same.

I can also recall at least one VFR flight, a couple of years ago, where my instrument training probably saved my life, even though my instrument skills were rusty at the time.
 
bflynn said:
No, I think he got POA'ed. If someone's wife refused to drive with them while they had a learner's permit and they were only driving 2 hours a month, I'd say she made a good choice.

His wife wants him to fly more. She wants him to get an IFR rating. I say that's a keeper.
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Yeah, if I ever get married again, I'd sure like to have that kind of wife!
 
My wife insisted I get the IR after we spent 3 days grounded in Iowa watching plane after plane depart. Sure you MUST remain proficient, but the wife part opened up my eyes to the amazing trips we could take that you just can't depend on vfr. 20 years ago - and it is still amazing.
 
n9144p said:
My wife insisted I get the IR after we spent 3 days grounded in Iowa watching plane after plane depart. Sure you MUST remain proficient, but the wife part opened up my eyes to the amazing trips we could take that you just can't depend on vfr. 20 years ago - and it is still amazing.
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Yes, that experience will get one going on the rating.

By the same token, the scud running alternative can easily get you killed.
 
n9144p said:
My wife insisted I get the IR after we spent 3 days grounded in Iowa watching plane after plane depart. Sure you MUST remain proficient, but the wife part opened up my eyes to the amazing trips we could take that you just can't depend on vfr. 20 years ago - and it is still amazing.
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My wife suggested it. She didn't have to insist.
 
CCluck said:
An IR will not make you a "better pilot" - that's just what the IR guys say to validate their choice to pursue it.

What IS true is that 40 hours of task-targeted instructor guided training will make you a better pilot.

Why not develop your own program to be a superior VFR pilot ? That could certainly include 10 hours of hood time learning to shoot approaches with the gear in your plane, maybe 10 acrobatic or upset-recovery, another 10 in mountain flying, another 10 of night operations or emergency procedures .....

I don't see where you need to be skilled at VOR tracking and holding if what you really need are skill and confidence to keep the plane upright in IMC while following radar vectors to VMC. Spend your time and money wisely, on your own agenda.

Ok, bring on the flames ....
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I know one thing for certain. The IR made ME a better pilot.

You justify not having one however you wish. But don't make blanket statements and then challenge those of us who have it to flame you. That's a cop out and a cheap shot.

The IR and the continued practice is the best thing I've ever done to make me a safer and more competent pilot when I'm flying my family.


CCluck said:
We need to get the implied value judgement out of these discussions - really, does the word better have any relevance here ?

I'be got a friend that does aerobatics and can spot-land his taildragger biplane on a dime in a cow pasture but thinks San Antonio to Waco is an epic cross country and hasn't had a minute of simulated instrument time since his student days.

Another aquaintance routinely flys to the left coast IFR but says he has not done a 45 degree bank turn since his IR checkride and thinks 3500' is a short runway.

Who's the "better" pilot ? Both are well within their personal risk acceptance envelope and flying the missions they choose.

My real point is that each of us should train for what we do, or intend to do, with some extra training towards surviving the unexpected.

OK, so Biplane guy might someday profit from a little hood time, while IFR guy might appreciate a bit of extra maneuvering practice. But I'm sure not gonna say one is better than the other ......
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They are both probably good competent pilots. They'll find out who the better one is, someday when they need to do something they don't typically do. That's when they'll know. You'll never know, nor should you.
 
labbadabba said:
Problem is, I've learned that instrument flying can get you in trouble in a real hurry and if I'm honest with myself, I really don't think I think I can stay sharp enough...
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Do it. Makes it easier to go cross country. It will make you a better pilot regardless of how often you use it.
 
for retailguy -

sorry I offended you with my "cheap shot"

as it happens, I do possess the IR, which doesn't somehow make me a "better" pilot - it just makes me a pilot with an additional set of skills and responsibilities.
 
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CCluck said:
for retailguy -

sorry I offended you with my "cheap shot"

as it happens, I do possess the IR, which doesn't somehow make me a "better" pilot - it just makes me a pilot with an additional set of skills and responsibilities.
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That's interesting Chuck. Before I wrote my original post, I checked the FAA Airmen database. Not what it shows. You must be a fairly recent instrument pilot. Congrats on the new rating.
 
CCluck said:
I'be got a friend that does aerobatics and can spot-land his taildragger biplane on a dime in a cow pasture but thinks San Antonio to Waco is an epic cross country and hasn't had a minute of simulated instrument time since his student days.

Another aquaintance routinely flys to the left coast IFR but says he has not done a 45 degree bank turn since his IR checkride and thinks 3500' is a short runway.

Who's the "better" pilot ? Both are well within their personal risk acceptance envelope and flying the missions they choose.
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I'll answer that ... without hitting IMC, the tail dragger pilot. Heck, put the other guy in a Cirrus with a chute and that solves his handling problems:lol:
 
My earliest posts to this thread predate my checkride for the IR by a few days .... I was pretty far along, and deeply invested in the training process when I made my initial comments .

Since then, I've passed the CR ( 2-10-2016 ) been annointed and made a few flights on IFR flight plans. This evening I deliberately declined an ATC offer of an alternate altitude to indulge my passengers fascination with seeing the innards of a cloud.

Otherwise, the same trip could've been done entirely VFR, albeit bumpier and slower. I don't discount the utility of the rating, and I spent an a..load of cash to get it - but the OP needn't be denigrated or brow-beaten if he chooses not to pursue it. That ten grand could buy a lot of avgas and motel rooms, right ?

In my experience ( limited to the states illustrated in my signature map ) with a modicum of flexibility, a pilot can go almost anyplace, in a reasonable time frame, without having to go into IMC. Said pilot may have to get real close to it, and sometimes wait out the weather for a bit, but they can get there, sooner or later .

This thread is about the OP and his situation - if he chooses to fly strictly VFR, he's in good company and can certainly enjoy a long and gratifying avocation.. there needn't be any stigma attached to staying away from IMC, and the stats suggest he's safer if he does.

And, to reiterate, there isn't any reason the OP can't train to a high level of skill without going the Full Monty -

( additional inflammatory comments deleted )
 
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CCluck said:
My earliest posts to this thread predate my checkride for the IR by a few days .... I was pretty far along, and deeply invested in the training process when I made my initial comments .

Since then, I've passed the CR ( 2-10-2016 ) been annointed and made a few flights on IFR flight plans. This evening I deliberately declined an ATC offer of an alternate altitude to indulge my passengers fascination with seeing the innards of a cloud.

Otherwise, the same trip could've been done entirely VFR, albeit bumpier and slower. I don't discount the utility of the rating, and I spent an a..load of cash to get it - but the OP needn't be denigrated or brow-beaten if he chooses not to pursue it. That ten grand could buy a lot of avgas and motel rooms, right ?

In my experience ( limited to the states illustrated in my signature map ) with a modicum of flexibility, a pilot can go almost anyplace, in a reasonable time frame, without having to go into IMC. Said pilot may have to get real close to it, and sometimes wait out the weather for a bit, but they can get there, sooner or later .

This thread is about the OP and his situation - if he chooses to fly strictly VFR, he's in good company and can certainly enjoy a long and gratifying avocation.. there needn't be any stigma attached to staying away from IMC, and the stats suggest he's safer if he does.

And, to reiterate, there isn't any reason the OP can't train to a high level of skill without going the Full Monty -

( additional inflammatory comments deleted )
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Reference please?
 
Sorry, Glider Dude, I have no references which will bear scrutiny - I should have said "some of the many stats I have seen bandied about on this interweb, by persons purporting to have done actual research, suggest, to ME, that entering IMC may have some associated risks which do not ordinarily pertain to normal VFR operations".

I'm sure you can find these various discussions with a modicum of effort.
 
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