Tailwheel Student Logging of PIC

akpilot907

Pre-takeoff checklist
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citabriav8tr
Hello all!

It's been quite some time since I've last been on the forums. I'm a tailwheel instructor and was asked the question today, "If you are an ASEL pilot, can you log PIC time during tailwheel instruction? Assuming it's in an Airplane Single Engine Land."

I've read the regs, "Sole manipulator of controls, cat/class/type, rated... blah blah blah" But nowhere does it mention that NOT having an endorsement prohibits one from LOGGING PIC.

Now I know that one cannot ACT as PIC if not endorsed, but LOG IT?? My thought has always been "rated" includes endorsements and additional training....

Thoughts??
 
All the guys I've taught tailwheel were 0 time student pilots, that said I wouldn't log it as PIC till they have the ink to act as PIC
 
I've read the regs, "Sole manipulator of controls, cat/class/type, rated... blah blah blah" But nowhere does it mention that NOT having an endorsement prohibits one from LOGGING PIC.

That's correct, that reg says that you can log it by being the "sole manipulator" if you're rated in category/class/type, but endorsements are only required to ACT as PIC.
 
As long as they are qualified to log PIC in the same category/class as they're training in (ASEL, AMEL, etc...), they can log instruction as PIC during training for a tailwheel, complex or HP endorsement. They can not be the acting PIC until they are properly endorsed.
 
Hello all!

It's been quite some time since I've last been on the forums. I'm a tailwheel instructor and was asked the question today, "If you are an ASEL pilot, can you log PIC time during tailwheel instruction? Assuming it's in an Airplane Single Engine Land."

I've read the regs, "Sole manipulator of controls, cat/class/type, rated... blah blah blah" But nowhere does it mention that NOT having an endorsement prohibits one from LOGGING PIC.
The only reason it doesn't mention that NOT having an endorsement prohibits one from LOGGING PIC is because not having an endorsement doesn't prohibit one from logging PIC.

Funny how that works.

But don't worry about not knowing. The formal FAA Chief Counsel opinion saying so is only 34 years old.
 
OK, follow up question. A pilot with PPL but no medical ((he flies as SP) and no tailwheel endorsement takes training in a non-SP tailwheel aircraft. Can he log the time as PIC?
 
OK, follow up question. A pilot with PPL but no medical ((he flies as SP) and no tailwheel endorsement takes training in a non-SP tailwheel aircraft. Can he log the time as PIC?

Nope.
 
OK, follow up question. A pilot with PPL but no medical ((he flies as SP) and no tailwheel endorsement takes training in a non-SP tailwheel aircraft. Can he log the time as PIC?

Yes..
 
OK, follow up question. A pilot with PPL but no medical ((he flies as SP) and no tailwheel endorsement takes training in a non-SP tailwheel aircraft. Can he log the time as PIC?

What is "SP"?

The medical certificate is irrelevant to logging PIC. So are endorsements, current flight reviews, passenger currency, anything you can come up with. Here's what the rule says, and it means exactly what it says:

A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;​

See anything about medical certificates, endorsements, passenger currency, flight reviews.... there?
 
OK, follow up question. A pilot with PPL but no medical ((he flies as SP) and no tailwheel endorsement takes training in a non-SP tailwheel aircraft. Can he log the time as PIC?

Whether the person has a medical or not does not matter in OP's scenario.
 
Of course, I remind everyone of the "sole manipulator" part of the reg.
As a flight instructor of 50+ years, MOST new aircraft checkouts are NOT 100% "sole manipulator",
Especially tailwheel. A conscientious flight instructor will only allow logging PIC time when, in fact, the pilot is "sole manipulator". Especially during T.O. & landing practice.
It isn't logical to expect 100% sole manipulator time during ANY checkout- much less tailwheel .. .
 
Of course, I remind everyone of the "sole manipulator" part of the reg.
As a flight instructor of 50+ years, MOST new aircraft checkouts are NOT 100% "sole manipulator",
Especially tailwheel. A conscientious flight instructor will only allow logging PIC time when, in fact, the pilot is "sole manipulator". Especially during T.O. & landing practice.
It isn't logical to expect 100% sole manipulator time during ANY checkout- much less tailwheel .. .
That sounds like splitting hairs to me. You'd be rough guessing it.
 
That sounds like splitting hairs to me. You'd be rough guessing it.
Yes, the 10 seconds of CFI rescue during those landings :yikes: might be a bit of a hair split, but he does have a valid point.

Of course, proper logging of flight time isn't something for an instructor to "allow" or "deny."
 
Of course, I remind everyone of the "sole manipulator" part of the reg.
As a flight instructor of 50+ years, MOST new aircraft checkouts are NOT 100% "sole manipulator",
Especially tailwheel. A conscientious flight instructor will only allow logging PIC time when, in fact, the pilot is "sole manipulator". Especially during T.O. & landing practice.
It isn't logical to expect 100% sole manipulator time during ANY checkout- much less tailwheel .. .


Yeah there's some points where you wont be the "sole manipulator" especially in a tailwheel where ground maneuvers have additional risks and wheel landings are the opposite of what tricylce geared pilots are used to but I agree with mkosmo that you'd be splitting hairs.

That's be like flying for 3.5 hours being under the hood from just after takeoff and down to minimums on the approach and deciding to log 3.14159 as your SIM instrument time because your start/taxi/runup/takeoff and your landing/taxi/shutdown time was 15 minutes and the instructor needed to take over to put you in an unusual attitude for recovery or to steer clear of traffc for another 6.5 minutes. Perhaps its more accurate but is it likely to be an issue if you logged it, say 3.2 or even 3.3 instead of 3.14159 or 3.1? No

A tailwheel is a particularly bad example too... Generally speaking, a pilot getting a new insurance checkout or high-performance or complex or high altitude aircraft endorsement is likely to be the sole manipulator of the controls through the entire flight. Is there really any reason a current and proficient C172 pilot would need the instructor to take over and/or be on the controls when getting signed off for a C182? In theory they shouldnt.

Also, once you have the log book entries to meet minimum requirements for a particular rating, your log book becomes largely memorabilia and a scrap book than anything else. Technically the FAA requires you to keep the log but if you never log another flight again except your last BFR, last instrument approach and if you have passengers, your last 3 landings in 90 days (or nights) then whose to say you haven't flown any other flights in that windows? Your're still legal and current for all of it and its not like its going to matter that you didnt log 12 other flights you recently flew.

In the end the FAA looks at log books for 3 reasons: 1) Ratings, 2) Ramp or other check looking for currency and 3) if you crash the plane they'll want to review your log (if it is available and/or can be found in the mess) to ascertain total time in type, condition and x number of months to see how time might have played a factor in your screw up that ended with CFITS.

Now as an ATP, your log book takes on a different importance since it also document hours flown in a given week and has other considerations that makes the general accuracy and up-to-date status of an ATP's log book more important than for a regular private pilot.

I do know plenty of private pilots (myself sometimes included) who dont log flights right away and log them every 2 or 3 times out.
 
Of course, I remind everyone of the "sole manipulator" part of the reg.
As a flight instructor of 50+ years, MOST new aircraft checkouts are NOT 100% "sole manipulator",
Especially tailwheel. A conscientious flight instructor will only allow logging PIC time when, in fact, the pilot is "sole manipulator". Especially during T.O. & landing practice.
It isn't logical to expect 100% sole manipulator time during ANY checkout- much less tailwheel .. .
I agree. Big time.
 
Of course, I remind everyone of the "sole manipulator" part of the reg.
As a flight instructor of 50+ years, MOST new aircraft checkouts are NOT 100% "sole manipulator",
Especially tailwheel. A conscientious flight instructor will only allow logging PIC time when, in fact, the pilot is "sole manipulator". Especially during T.O. & landing practice.
It isn't logical to expect 100% sole manipulator time during ANY checkout- much less tailwheel .. .
I agree with your sole manipulator point with regards to initial tailwheel training, but I have rarely had an instructor touch the controls on any other aircraft checkout I have done.
 
Especially tailwheel. A conscientious flight instructor will only allow logging PIC time when, in fact, the pilot is "sole manipulator". Especially during T.O. & landing practice.
.

So with your wonderful amazing 50 years of instructing, HOW does the student learn to take off and land if YOU are doing the take offs and landings?

:dunno:
 
So with your wonderful amazing 50 years of instructing, HOW does the student learn to take off and land if YOU are doing the take offs and landings?

:dunno:
How do we log it if he does 90% of the landing, but needs (and they do from time to time) some help with a rudder correction? I would contend that at some point before the endorsement is given, he SHOULD be logging the landing 100% PIC, but probably not much at first.
 
Here's an FAA interpretation for you.

Jason E Herman (2009)

It does not explicitly address the question of a tailwheel; it does however address the 2 of the other major endorsements in your log book for complex and high-performance.

The interpretation states that as long as you have someone in the plane with the appropriate endorsements and you yourself are appropriately rated for the class of aircraft (SEL), you can log PIC time anytime you are the sole manipulator of the controls regardless of whether the person next to you is an instructor or merely an endorsed pilot friend.
 
How do we log it if he does 90% of the landing, but needs (and they do from time to time) some help with a rudder correction? I would contend that at some point before the endorsement is given, he SHOULD be logging the landing 100% PIC, but probably not much at first.

You guys sure seem to like to split hairs that have already been split once.
 
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