DUI Reporting

U

Unregistered

Guest
Private pilot with a Class 3 medical, flying for recreation only - not intending to become a commercial pilot.

I got a DUI in April, my BAC was .17. No prior arrests other than 2 speeding tickets 8-10 years ago. I just had court on Tuesday and entered a program which requires alcohol school from the DMV, a substance abuse evaluation/treatment if needed, license suspension for 2 months, and 6 months probation. After completing this my record will be expunged.

I need to make a report per CFR 61.15 since my license was suspended. I am assuming since my BAC was over .15, I will need to jump through some additional hoops. Any idea what additional information the FAA might want so I can get ahead of it? I've gotten a substance abuse evaluation from the DUI program at the court (last week) and another from a state licensed behavioral health provider (today). Both of these indicate "no treatment needed". Should I attach these with my report or wait and see if they request any additional documentation?

My medical is due for renewal 06/2015. What documentation from this incident should I be sure to keep around? I was thinking I should renew in January to leave 6 extra months deal with the FAA. However, I could wait until mid-April and that would put the DUI arrest 3 years in the past - does this make a difference?

Thank you for any advice.
 
You will need:

All the court papers. What we're looking for is the initial charge, the officer's description of the behavior observed, and the BAC- both field and confirmed.

10 year DL search. You have to prove to the feds, that this is your one and only.

Evaluation by a Master's level (usu.) Certified Drug and Alcohol Counselor. This has to be done in a particlar federal format, NOT the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Of the APA, V. 4. Check box stuff per the usual court ordered evaluation, will not do. This usually runs ~$200. If the CADC is equivocal on the five criteria FAA is looking for, and does not make the calls to your spouse, employer, etc....it will need be redone. This can be the painful part (sharing your debacle with those who know you, who have to help you).

In the 0.15 to 0.20 range, I strongly recommend a CBC and an ALT (SGOT), which have items that can tell us about the absence of chonicity. Every little thing helps.

Personal Statement. Be careful. I've read a number of these while working in the AMCD doing the "superAME" course. A bad personal statement confirms usage in the face of known consequenes, preoccupation with use, etc, all things that end the file evaluation right on the -->denial. I remember one in which the narration was to the effect of: "my Girlfriend and I were travelling via motorcycle, to visit a friend and decided on lunch at a mountain tavern. I had 2 or 3. We continued without difficulty, and about an hour later decided to stop again at a famous Inn, just because we could, and I had a few more as I was thristy.....then...." Cease Reading the file. Deny. "Continued use in the face of known consequences. Probable preoccupation with use...."

All will have to be submitted to the AMCD, where review is very very delayed currently.

I strongly suggest a HIMS AME (google "HIM"S and see what it's about). I have managed to issue a number of these in the office, where the entirety of the file suggests a lack of tolerance (if you're tolerant, we know you booze a lot).

Outcomes: if tolerance is present, you get grounded. Third classers can do two years grounded and if there are no more violations, and then be warned and recertified.

If tolerance is present, you can get sponsored in a non-HIMS HIMS program, you pay for "they call, you pee". You do "recovery activities", e.g, monthly visits to the CADC, AA meetings which are documented, and 1,2, or 3 monthly viists to the HIMS AME for assessments He sponsors your special issuance, and the SI is issued to you in his name.

The best of all, is if tolerance is NOT demonstrated, in this range of BAC you might be able to get recertified; this is the authorization conversation which a HIMS AME will have with the AMCD (if all is negative) and you can be reissued after that discussion. The key here is that a good HIMS AME will know already, based on the above list, what to propose to AMCD and what will not work.

If you are fortunate you may be in a large metroplex where one of the 100 HIMS AMEs are located.

If you are a First or Second Class airman, we have less flexibility. HIMS for them is ~6-8 months down, inaptient rehab for a month, 90 AA meetings in 90 days, urine monitoring, weekly CADC visits, monthly AME evaluations, and at 6-8 months the $5-6,000 Psychiatrist + clinical psychologist evaluation. If that is okay, the Federal Air Surgeon (not OKC) will issue you a Special issuance contingent on Airline Company weekly mini-evals with a HIMS pilot, twice weekly AAs, Monthly CADC evals, 1, 2 0r 3 montly HIMS AME visits issued 6 months at a time.

That was long, but I think I got the outline in one post.
 
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OP here - Thank you for the detailed information...sounds like I've gotten myself into a quite a mess. Will all of that go on now after I make my 61.15 report? Or will I need to deal with it in 3 years when my medical is due?
 
The 61.15 report will result in a demand or everything I have noted above, and give you 30 days to submit or face revocation of your medical. So you should get everything together NOW and simultaneously with you 61.15 report.

Lay off that "U of I High Street" weekend lifestyle. It is totally incompatile even with 3rd class aviation.....

If you get a second DUI or a Disorderly (ETOH related) you will go to rehab. 2 in a lifetime is presumptive Chroinc repetitive abuse, and CERTAINLY represents repetitive use in the fave of known consequences, which gives you that diagnosis.

Are you anyplace near a HIMS AME? Where are you geographically....
 
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Looks like you are already past the 30 day window. You might be best served by consulting an aviation attorney ASAP.
 
When was the conviction entered?
You only have 60 days from the conviction.

If you are late, better report RIGHT NOW and put yourself at the mercy of the bureaucray. They might let you off with a 14 day pilot certificate suspension if you beat them to the punch. Attorney will NOT help you if you don't satisfy the regulatory requirements. GET OFF YER DUFF. Notify in writing CERTIFIED, return RECEIPT.
 
Dave Theisen said:
Oops, I read the arrest was in April, missed the part about court was this week. Probably OK.
Click to expand...
Only way he wouldn't be OK is if he submitted a medical application after the arrest took place and failed to report the arrest in Block 18. The 60-day 61.15 clock didn't start ticking until Tuesday.
 
OP again - The arrest was in April, license was suspended on Tuesday, obtained my medical prior to arrest.

Basically, a conviction was never entered and the arrest will be expunged after I complete this program. So the way I see it, I'll just need to make one report due to license being suspended.

Followup question - Assuming I'm able to get this cleared up now, when I renew my medical do I have to go through all of this again?
 
Unregistered said:
OP again - The arrest was in April, license was suspended on Tuesday, obtained my medical prior to arrest.

Basically, a conviction was never entered and the arrest will be expunged after I complete this program. So the way I see it, I'll just need to make one report due to license being suspended.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't bet my ticket on that. You were arrested, and while your conviction may be expunged, I'm not at all sure the arrest will be expunged with it. Nevertheless, you'll always be required to report this event which resulted in attendance at the alcohol school on all future medical applications even if the arrest/conviction are expunged, so the you'll have to report and explain the event in Block 18v every time, anyway (it's all one question -- arrest, conviction, administrative action).

Followup question - Assuming I'm able to get this cleared up now, when I renew my medical do I have to go through all of this again?
Click to expand...
I know you'll have to report it in Block 18v (as discussed above), and explain it fully on the next medical after the event. On subsequent applications, I think you can just check "yes" and say "previously reported, no change." Bruce can confirm that.

And you'd best make sure it remains "no change." Get snagged again, and the FAA is going to stomp you like a grape at a winery.
 
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OP -

Yes, definitely not planning on another one - just trying to understand everything that I need to do so I can get it done and move on with my life. What I meant was as far as 61.15, I just need the report for my license being suspended (there is not/will not be a conviction). Then on future medicals I'll have to note it.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the advice. I report back with how it goes, someone may find it useful in the future.
 
Dr. Bruce, this ? Is for you, I received a DUI when I was 19, and my bac was .13. I am now 26 and just started flying. Do you think there will be a delay in my medical process and is there any paperwork I should bring to my ame?
 
Unregistered said:
Dr. Bruce, this ? Is for you, I received a DUI when I was 19, and my bac was .13. I am now 26 and just started flying. Do you think there will be a delay in my medical process and is there any paperwork I should bring to my ame?
Click to expand...

If you are an AOPA member, you'll find Dr Bruce on their forums. He's left the Blue Board for a while. In the meantime, he posted this over on the AOPA Forums a while back, and gives you the info you need...

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?p=1321868#post1321868

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...tory/item18/v/

Application Process for Medical Certification
Applicant History - Item 18. Medical History
v. History of Arrest(s), Conviction(s) and/or Administrative Action(s)
Arrest(s), conviction(s) and/or administrative action(s) affecting driving privileges may raise questions about the applicant's fitness for certification and may be cause for disqualification. (See Items 18.n. and 47). A single driving while intoxicated (DWI) arrest, conviction and/or administrative action usually is not cause for denial provided there are no other instances or indications of substance dependence or abuse.

The events to be reported are specifically identified in Item 18.v. of FAA Form 8500-8. If yes is checked, the applicant must describe the arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) in the EXPLANATIONS box. The description must include:
The alcohol or drug offense for which the applicant was arrested, convicted, or the type of administrative action involved (e.g., attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program in lieu of conviction; license denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation for refusal to be tested; educational safe driving program for multiple speeding convictions; etc.);
The name of the state or other jurisdiction involved; and
The date of the arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action

Note: If the applicant documented ALL of the above information on previous exams AND there are no new arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) since the last application, the applicant may enter PREVIOUSLY REPORTED, NO CHANGE.

For all first-time reports of arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) the Examiner must do the following prior to issuing an airman medical certificate:
Obtain a detailed history of the applicant's alcohol use, the circumstances surrounding all alcohol-related incidents (include those reported in 18v and any others that may have occurred)
Obtain copies of all court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) if the incident(s) occurred within the 5 years prior to the exam. This includes copies of relevant military records if the incidents occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces (includes military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records)
Document those findings in Item 60. (See Item 47)
Forward the court records, arrest reports, and any military records to AMCD
Advise the applicant that the reporting of alcohol or drug offenses (i.e., motor vehicle violation) on the history part of the medical application does not relieve the airman of responsibility to report each motor vehicle action to the FAA within 60 days of the occurrence to the:
Security and Investigations Division
AMC-700
P.O. Box 25810
Oklahoma City, OK 73125-0810

Deferral Criteria:
The Examiner must defer certification for any of the following:
Inability to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the date of the exam
For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:
Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant registers a blood alcohol level 0.15 or higher
Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant refused blood alcohol testing
Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action within the preceding 2 years AND THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER arrest, conviction and/or administrative action AT ANY OTHER TIME
Total of 3 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within a lifetime
Total of 2 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within the preceding 10 years

If the applicant is deferred, the FAA will require the applicant to:

Provide:
A detailed personal statement regarding his/her past and present patterns of alcohol or drug use
A complete copy of his/her current driving record in any state that he/she has held a driver’s license in the last 10 years
Copies of any court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) that have not already been provided to the AME. This includes copies of relevant military records if any event(s) occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces. “Relevant military records” means military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records
Obtain:
A substance abuse evaluation from an addictionologist or addiction psychologist/ psychiatrist familiar with aviation standards.

Issue Criteria:
The Examiner may issue if:
NONE of the Deferral Criteria above are met
For reported incident(s) when the most recent incident occurred more than 5 years prior to the exam, based on the exam and a detailed interview, the Examiner determines the applicant’s history does not indicate a possible substance abuse or dependence problem
For reported incident(s) when the most recent incident occurred within the preceding 5 years of the exam, based on the exam, detailed interview AND review of the court record(s) and arrest report(s), the Examiner determines the applicant’s history does not indicate a possible substance abuse or dependence problem.
Click to expand...

Go to the exam with all the stuff you need. Don't wait to be deferred.
 
The fact that the BAC was not above 0.15 is significant to this process -- above that, there are more and more expensive hoops through which you'd have to jump. Also, for the information of others, the FAA treats refusal to blow the same as blowing over 0.15. For more information on this issue, you can contact Dr. Chien via his website http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com; he no longer visits PoA.
 
Hey guys, new to the forum... I have a concern and I'm looking for any advice! I'm attending a flight college using my GI Bill and thus am required to have at least a 2nd class medical. My concern is that I was charged with a DUI in 10/2014 and a reckless driving 2 months later. From what I've read I may be doomed and my aspirations of becoming a pilot and my degree are now in jeopardy. Does anyone have any advice or have any experience with such an issue? I'm greatly appreciative of any information. I'd like to have my ducks in a row before going to an AME..

Thanks!
 
It depends. First off, your criminal history bodes poorly for your employment potential even if you manage to get certified. The questions are:

1. What was the BAC from your DUI? Was there any refusal to test involved?
2. Did the reckless have any involvement with alcohol or drugs?

With this information you need to talk honestly to an AME, preferably a HIMS one. There are at least two in this forum including our intermittent visitor Dr. Bruce who appears earlier in this thread.
 
Welcome to the forum,you need to reach out to Dr. Bruce he hangs out on the red board.
 
Thanks guys, I appreciate the info.. I've sent Dr. Bruce an email. I'm just curious if I jump through all the hoops if I stand a chance for a 2nd class..?
 
Sapper_007 said:
Thanks guys, I appreciate the info.. I've sent Dr. Bruce an email. I'm just curious if I jump through all the hoops if I stand a chance for a 2nd class..?
Click to expand...

We can't tell you without answers to the questions I asked. You might get certified with some hoop jumping or you may be out of luck.
 
The DUI was .21 but do to inaccuracies with their machine it just stated <.15 on the disposition and the reckless was given bc I refused to blow, being scared since I had just gotten a DUI.. My attorney had the sanctions for refusal lifted but they still suspended my license for a year. I'm beginning to doubt my ordeal. Thanks
 
Sapper_007 said:
The DUI was .21 but do to inaccuracies with their machine it just stated <.15 on the disposition and the reckless was given bc I refused to blow, being scared since I had just gotten a DUI.. My attorney had the sanctions for refusal lifted but they still suspended my license for a year. I'm beginning to doubt my ordeal. Thanks
Click to expand...

You're in deep trouble. Given the high BAC (the FAA will likely demand all the details and they're not going to buy the argument the courts did on the machine being innaccurate) and the REFUSAL, you're going to be regarded as having a severe alcohol dependency problem. Have a nice talk with Dr. Bruce, but with multiple high BAC incidents, the chances of even a 3rd is bleak.
 
Sapper_007 said:
The DUI was .21 but do to inaccuracies with their machine it just stated <.15 on the disposition and the reckless was given bc I refused to blow, being scared since I had just gotten a DUI.. My attorney had the sanctions for refusal lifted but they still suspended my license for a year. I'm beginning to doubt my ordeal. Thanks
Click to expand...

YGtBsM. Two DUIs then?

Blunt truth is an aviation career is not in your cards.
 
Brad Z said:
YGtBsM. Two DUIs then?

Blunt truth is an aviation career is not in your cards.
Click to expand...

Perfect world, the faculty of these 141 schools would include a day one session on how DUI's, alcohol, and other controlled items will screw your career, to totally abstain from using or getting near, and what to do during a LEO encounter for these items.

Might save a bunch of folks from spending money if they have the alcohol related problem on record before training starts.

But I agree, 0.21 for Sapper is going to be a tough road if that's what is on an official record somewhere. And Sapper, it doesn't matter what this might have been changed too later by the judge... the fact is at the time of testing, you blew 0.21. That's what the FAA is going to zero in on.
 
.21 *AND* a prior refusal to blow. The FAA is going to count this as TWO high BAC DUIs and that there is tolerance here indicative of a serious substance abuse problem.
 
bbchien said:
You will need:

All the court papers. What we're looking for is the initial charge, the officer's description of the behavior observed, and the BAC- both field and confirmed.

10 year DL search. You have to prove to the feds, that this is your one and only.

Evaluation by a Master's level (usu.) Certified Drug and Alcohol Counselor. This has to be done in a particlar federal format, NOT the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Of the APA, V. 4. Check box stuff per the usual court ordered evaluation, will not do. This usually runs ~$200. If the CADC is equivocal on the five criteria FAA is looking for, and does not make the calls to your spouse, employer, etc....it will need be redone. This can be the painful part (sharing your debacle with those who know you, who have to help you).

In the 0.15 to 0.20 range, I strongly recommend a CBC and an ALT (SGOT), which have items that can tell us about the absence of chonicity. Every little thing helps.

Personal Statement. Be careful. I've read a number of these while working in the AMCD doing the "superAME" course. A bad personal statement confirms usage in the face of known consequenes, preoccupation with use, etc, all things that end the file evaluation right on the -->denial. I remember one in which the narration was to the effect of: "my Girlfriend and I were travelling via motorcycle, to visit a friend and decided on lunch at a mountain tavern. I had 2 or 3. We continued without difficulty, and about an hour later decided to stop again at a famous Inn, just because we could, and I had a few more as I was thristy.....then...." Cease Reading the file. Deny. "Continued use in the face of known consequences. Probable preoccupation with use...."

All will have to be submitted to the AMCD, where review is very very delayed currently.

I strongly suggest a HIMS AME (google "HIM"S and see what it's about). I have managed to issue a number of these in the office, where the entirety of the file suggests a lack of tolerance (if you're tolerant, we know you booze a lot).

Outcomes: if tolerance is present, you get grounded. Third classers can do two years grounded and if there are no more violations, and then be warned and recertified.

If tolerance is present, you can get sponsored in a non-HIMS HIMS program, you pay for "they call, you pee". You do "recovery activities", e.g, monthly visits to the CADC, AA meetings which are documented, and 1,2, or 3 monthly viists to the HIMS AME for assessments He sponsors your special issuance, and the SI is issued to you in his name.

The best of all, is if tolerance is NOT demonstrated, in this range of BAC you might be able to get recertified; this is the authorization conversation which a HIMS AME will have with the AMCD (if all is negative) and you can be reissued after that discussion. The key here is that a good HIMS AME will know already, based on the above list, what to propose to AMCD and what will not work.

If you are fortunate you may be in a large metroplex where one of the 100 HIMS AMEs are located.

If you are a First or Second Class airman, we have less flexibility. HIMS for them is ~6-8 months down, inaptient rehab for a month, 90 AA meetings in 90 days, urine monitoring, weekly CADC visits, monthly AME evaluations, and at 6-8 months the $5-6,000 Psychiatrist + clinical psychologist evaluation. If that is okay, the Federal Air Surgeon (not OKC) will issue you a Special issuance contingent on Airline Company weekly mini-evals with a HIMS pilot, twice weekly AAs, Monthly CADC evals, 1, 2 0r 3 montly HIMS AME visits issued 6 months at a time.

That was long, but I think I got the outline in one post.
Click to expand...

Had a DUI about 5 years ago...I did NONE of this...reported it about 3 months late too. The FAA wrote back and said I needed a liver function test, which I then provided. Done.

Guess I got lucky?
 
Unregistered said:
Had a DUI about 5 years ago...I did NONE of this...reported it about 3 months late too. The FAA wrote back and said I needed a liver function test, which I then provided. Done.

Guess I got lucky?
Click to expand...

Not the same situation. You don't need the ten year history if you have a medical as they presume they know about any prior problems already. SGOT is one of the liver tests. So in fact, other than the psych stuff, your case isn't too much different. Further it is COMPLETELY different than our recent visitor who has *MULTIPLE* high BAC issues.

Indeed while the overall criteria for DUI isn't specific to a medical class, the means of verification do very much change between second and third.

There seems to be a lot of "Unregistered" anonymous posters here spreading disinformation. The applicants are well advised to disregard much of what is written here and seek a competent AME (of which there are at least TWO of on this board).
 
flyingron said:
Not the same situation. You don't need the ten year history if you have a medical as they presume they know about any prior problems already. SGOT is one of the liver tests. So in fact, other than the psych stuff, your case isn't too much different. Further it is COMPLETELY different than our recent visitor who has *MULTIPLE* high BAC issues.

Indeed while the overall criteria for DUI isn't specific to a medical class, the means of verification do very much change between second and third.

There seems to be a lot of "Unregistered" anonymous posters here spreading disinformation. The applicants are well advised to disregard much of what is written here and seek a competent AME (of which there are at least TWO of on this board).
Click to expand...

It seems to me to be the EXACT situation as the original poster....he too has a medical, he too has only 2 tickets on his record.
Nothing "disinformation" about my post either...that's what happened in my case. I'll continue to post anonymous because my name is non of your business. But if you'd like, I still have my paperwork from the FAA, and I could post pics of the letters that "excuse" my late reporting and state that there is no enforcement action from the DUI.
When I got the DUI I reported late and I didn't do anything else because I, like the original poster, fly for recreation only, and my pilots license was the least of my worries when I got the DUI.
 
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