Should I fire my CFII?

U

Unregistered

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Not sure where else to post this, but I know he's fairly well known around my area since he's been doing this for so long. I'm less than 15 hours away from my IR, so I'm in kind of a pickle.

There have been a couple incidents I can point to where I think he has done dangerous things and numerous others that don't seem in and of themselves dangerous. For example, while on a practice ILS 18 with a circle to 36, during the daytime at a Class D airport, I could hear the tower clearing people for takeoff to the north, directly into us. Most were staying in the pattern, but I did hear a twin bonanza cleared for takeoff with a north departure, which would take him right into us. As the tower told me to break it off to the left, I did so, but then my instructor grabbed the yoke and turned it back toward the oncoming twin. He argued with me that we needed to get out of the way as the tower controller began telling us the same. He then got on the radio to argue with the tower that we were fine. If I had it to do over again, I would have taken the hood off and told him it was my airplane and landed it, but I thought it was a simple oversight on his part.

Last night, as we were doing the same thing (no traffic this time), the approach got unstable. I was at almost full scale deflection, so I elected to go missed and applied full power. He pulled the power and turned the plane back toward the circling side of the runway. I told him I elected to go missed and he just told me no, that I was going to land. So I took the hood off and landed at that point. No point arguing since I could stay safe without a hood on.

Usually, while we're flying, I'll look over with the hood on and see him messing around with his phone. He spends the time in the air telling me all about his family and the trips he has taken, or anything else but flying for a majority of the time. I don't mind paying for a safety pilot, but I sure don't think what he's giving me is anything better than a safety pilot. He keeps telling me I'm just about ready for the checkride and that I'll for sure be ready by 40.

At this point, I don't care how I get my 40 hours of simulated IMC, but I want to make sure when I do get there, I am ready. My concern is that if I fire him, I will end up having to start over with a new CFII and that I'll have to find a different place to rent a plane as where I am now is the only rental at that airport. He is the chief flight instructor for the flying club, so my complaints would have to go to him, and would likely mean no more renting those planes for training.

So what's the best way forward? Just blast through the last 10 hours while ignoring him? Have a sit down CTJ with him? Start over with a new CFI at a different airport? Am I being unreasonable to think he's borderline unsafe?
 
If you're only 15hrs from your ride, just suck it up and get it done.
 
Just talk to the guy about it. Nothing wrong with an honest conversation to clear the air.


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It's your money. If you don't trust the guy or feel he is not effective teaching you, find someone else.
 
If your skills are at the level that he's ready to send you to the DPE, couldn't you try to find a safety pilot to fly with you for your last 10 hours of hood time? It sounds like you don't have many options for instructors around there.
 
Have a serious talk with the instructor,explain your feelings.talk to some of his previous students,see if it might be you over reaction due to nerves.
 
Ask him to put the phone in the glove box and give you the attention you are paying for - unless he's doing something that's related to what you are paying for - as I sometimes do, like watching a track on a GPS app or writing a note for post-flight.
 
One of life's little mysteries for me is the angst that people seem to have over switching instructors. If it's an economic thing, OK, but flying is flying and whether it is spent before or after a checkride doesn't seem to me to be a big deal.

I think there is good news and bad news with instructors. The bad news is that there is little or no standardization and, really, a very low bar for expertise. The good news is that the great variety means that you will learn something valuable and different from every instructor. At least that has been true for me at 1000++ hours. Between ratings and checkrides I have flown with 10-20 instructors -- maybe more. And I can't think of one who hasn't given me something new.

So, for the OP, try thinking of the possibility of flying with a new instructor as an opportunity and not some kind of burden. Sure it may set you back an hour or few but guaranteed you will learn some things that instructor #1 wouldn't have taught you. And why does it matter if you pay for those extra hours in your logbook before or after you take your checkride?
 
I didn't read the OP but if you have to ask, you probably should.

Edit: after reading your story, I agree that a post-flight debrief could have addressed these issues.

I also would want to hear the CFI's side of the story. You don't know what he saw out the window while you ere under the hood.

I am assuming that if he is PIC for the flight, you saying "my airplane" and doing contrary to the instructors instructions is a recipe for disaster. If there's an issue while you're under good, you should relinquish controls to the instructor, unless you see something he doesn't.

As far as the texting, yeah he should put the phone away. That should be a one minute conversation. As far as chatting, just let him know you're concentrating. If you really feel like he's just a safety pilot, then it sounds like you're not learning anything; might be time to move on.
 
Some CFIs use incessant banter to ensure you continue to perform while managing distractions.
 
unregistered said:
Usually, while we're flying, I'll look over with the hood on and see him messing around with his phone. He spends the time in the air telling me all about his family and the trips he has taken, or anything else but flying for a majority of the time. I don't mind paying for a safety pilot, but I sure don't think what he's giving me is anything better than a safety pilot. He keeps telling me I'm just about ready for the checkride and that I'll for sure be ready by 40.
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I hate cell phone use in the cockpit except when needed to deal with a real problem. I have used a cell phone in-flight to call our tower during a NORDO situation, and also to get in touch with flight service to close a VFR flight plan marked "overdue" when there was no other available option. Other than that, they really have no place there. I hold my students to the same standard as I hold myself.

A safety pilot's most important duty is traffic avoidance. This duty is not performed well when our eyes are focused on close objects inside the cockpit. The eyes need to be outside to detect and avoid other traffic a good majority of the time. A CFI-I has added responsibilities to critique and evaluate the performance of the instrument student, but this can be done simultaneously while scanning for traffic. There is no excuse for any instructor to be on a cell phone for a prolonged period of time in flight. Keep in mind that during instrument training, you're flying courses that other instrument students may also be flying. With the advent of GPS, the positioning of aircraft along these courses is closer than it's ever been before. That's why the role of a safety pilot is so important when conducting instrument training.

unregistered said:
There have been a couple incidents I can point to where I think he has done dangerous things and numerous others that don't seem in and of themselves dangerous. For example, while on a practice ILS 18 with a circle to 36, during the daytime at a Class D airport, I could hear the tower clearing people for takeoff to the north, directly into us. Most were staying in the pattern, but I did hear a twin bonanza cleared for takeoff with a north departure, which would take him right into us. As the tower told me to break it off to the left, I did so, but then my instructor grabbed the yoke and turned it back toward the oncoming twin. He argued with me that we needed to get out of the way as the tower controller began telling us the same. He then got on the radio to argue with the tower that we were fine. If I had it to do over again, I would have taken the hood off and told him it was my airplane and landed it, but I thought it was a simple oversight on his part.
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Opposite direction operations are totally fine so long as one aircraft has the other in sight. Here in Lafayette, IN (LAF) this is fairly routine. We'll have planes inbound and outbound on the Runway 10 localizer daily. However, if tower repeatedly tells you to abandon the approach even if you have the other traffic in sight, that instruction is mandatory. Violating it can be grounds for a pilot deviation. If the tower requests you vacate the approach, you report it in sight, and then are instructed to continue on the approach, that is okay. But there are other reasons why the tower may need you to abandon an opposite-direction approach besides for the evident opposite direction departure ahead.

unregistered said:
Last night, as we were doing the same thing (no traffic this time), the approach got unstable. I was at almost full scale deflection, so I elected to go missed and applied full power. He pulled the power and turned the plane back toward the circling side of the runway. I told him I elected to go missed and he just told me no, that I was going to land. So I took the hood off and landed at that point. No point arguing since I could stay safe without a hood on.
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If you are "almost" at full-scale deflection, you are not at full-scale deflection, and I would be doing what I could to salvage the approach, too. You should do what you can to prevent it from getting to that point, but in real life, there are going to be scenarios where making that approach is your last option before something more catastrophic happens.

unregistered said:
At this point, I don't care how I get my 40 hours of simulated IMC, but I want to make sure when I do get there, I am ready. My concern is that if I fire him, I will end up having to start over with a new CFII and that I'll have to find a different place to rent a plane as where I am now is the only rental at that airport. He is the chief flight instructor for the flying club, so my complaints would have to go to him, and would likely mean no more renting those planes for training.

So what's the best way forward? Just blast through the last 10 hours while ignoring him? Have a sit down CTJ with him? Start over with a new CFI at a different airport? Am I being unreasonable to think he's borderline unsafe?
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It always stinks when you have a problem with the chief. However, it also stinks when you get into real IMC and don't feel like you've been properly prepared.

You should be getting briefed and debriefed before and after every flight. There should be an "Any questions or concerns?" section where you take time to address the cell phone usage. If neither of those exist, I say move on. It's unlikely in such a scenario you're being properly critiqued, and even more unlikely you're being properly evaluated to begin with.

It is possible that your skills are right where they need to be. However, there is always something that can use improvement, and 15 hours is too many to waste not finding out what that might be. The good news is changing instructors during instrument training is not as hard as changing instructors during private pilot training. If you can find an independent instructor with an airplane, or perhaps another flight school with a good reputation, I would consider flying with them. The bottom line is you're not satisfied with the services you are receiving. We still have a free enterprise system in flight training; take advantage of it.
 
I am switching CFII after my first one was poor at showing me how to do DME arcs, holds and approaches in terms of actual teaching ability.
 
I disagree with the idea of "pushing through" just to finish. If you go to your checkride with what this person has given you for training, you will fail.

I went through something like 10 flight instructors between PPL and IR. I had a couple like the one you describe, but had I NOT changed, I would not have gotten the knowledge I received from the other folks.

You don't even have to tell him your switching, just go take a ride with another instructor and see if you like their teaching style better.

If you are Part 61, then you can do whatever you want. If you're 141 well then you might be in for the long haul.

Ultimately, if you CAN'T get past that instructor, have him sign you off, then go up with a couple other people for an independent evaluation.

Before I did my IR checkride I got three separate instructors to evaluate me and all said I was ready. Took three flights and guess what, passed my checkride first time.

You have options, don't get so desperate for the rating that you rush and blow the checkride.
 
Caramon13 said:
I disagree with the idea of "pushing through" just to finish. If you go to your checkride with what this person has given you for training, you will fail.

I went through something like 10 flight instructors between PPL and IR. I had a couple like the one you describe, but had I NOT changed, I would not have gotten the knowledge I received from the other folks.

You don't even have to tell him your switching, just go take a ride with another instructor and see if you like their teaching style better.

If you are Part 61, then you can do whatever you want. If you're 141 well then you might be in for the long haul.

Ultimately, if you CAN'T get past that instructor, have him sign you off, then go up with a couple other people for an independent evaluation.

Before I did my IR checkride I got three separate instructors to evaluate me and all said I was ready. Took three flights and guess what, passed my checkride first time.

You have options, don't get so desperate for the rating that you rush and blow the checkride.
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I didn't read anything where the CFII was teaching him INSTRUMENT work incorrectly, the few questionable judgement factors he made were licked up on by the student, I don't see where he won't end up a good IFR flyer from the current II.

Changing CFIIs WILL cost him hours and $$$, and I really don't see it making him a better pilot, hence why I said just stick it out since he's at the tail end of his rating anyway.

How did you go through 10 CFIs between your PPL and IFR? As a instructor that would be a large red flag for me.
 
James, true it will cost a little extra money, but since when is time in the air training a bad thing before a checkride? It can only help to make skills stronger.

For me when I got the three separate opinions for my checkride, I went into the conversation with the CFII's saying that I wanted to evaluate my ride as if it was a checkride. Sure we spent a few minutes getting accustomed to each other, but you don't need to be best friends with your CFII for them to give you a proper evaluation. DPE's do it all the time.

Regarding the instructor count:

Long story....for my PPL I flew with 4 different CFII's, mostly due to scheduling and availability.

After my PPL, I went up with 3-4 additional CFII's and rotated between the original 4, so 10 is rather exaggerated, more like 8 total.

I have a pretty tight schedule at night and weekends and not every instructor was able to do those time periods where I live. If someone wasn't available, I picked someone else. Once I had my cross-country PIC time down (which I did solo), it was just approach work and procedures. Could have done it with a safety pilot, but there were some areas where I needed work so flew the whole thing with a CFII in the right seat.

My point is a CFII is a valuable and necessary tool for your rating. Just because your favorite one or the one you've been flying with a lot isn't available doesn't mean you sit on the ground for 2 weeks waiting. Find someone else. They aren't available, find someone else..etc. It's what I did, and it worked out fine for me.
 
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90%+ of CFIs are garbage and have no business teaching or flying. The other 10% are tough to find, but you'll know it when you see it.

Keep looking. In the meantime, let this CFII know that when there is a dispute over risk, the least risky opinion wins when in the air, and when on the ground, more discussion can occur. So if you go missed, he is in no position to force you to continue. If you break off for collision avoidance, he should shut his mouth and let you go, even if you're being too risk averse.

And the applies both ways. Don't let someone else kill you because they took one more checkride than you did.
 
If there really is a disagreement on risk, the "more conservative opinion wins" approach is commonly used, but the real answer is 14 CFR 91.3(a).

Unless this is a multi or seaplane, you're PIC, not the instructor.
 
James331 said:
... Changing CFIIs WILL cost him hours and $$$, and I really don't see it making him a better pilot ...
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I disagree. I have flown with many CFIs over the years and have benefited from their varied experience and knowledge. I still fly with my old instrument instructor once in a while because we are friends but I always look forward to a checkride or other flight with someone new.
SkyHog said:
90%+ of CFIs are garbage and have no business teaching or flying. The other 10% are tough to find, but you'll know it when you see it. ...
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I think that's a little harsh and 90% may be a little high, but IMO there are far too many newly-minted CFIIs with near-zero real flying experience in IMC and in the IFR environment. I always tell aspiring birdmen to seek out the old bears who instruct because they love it and who have years of experience and not just "dual given."
 
SkyHog said:
90%+ of CFIs are garbage and have no business teaching or flying...
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That has not been my experience.

...In the meantime, let this CFII know that when there is a dispute over risk, the least risky opinion wins when in the air, and when on the ground, more discussion can occur. So if you go missed, he is in no position to force you to continue. If you break off for collision avoidance, he should shut his mouth and let you go, even if you're being too risk averse...
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Reminds me of a flight on which the instructor thought my decision to go around was unnecessary, but when Tower objected to my going around, the instructor vigorously defended my right to make the decision. I really appreciated that.
 
MAKG1 said:
If there really is a disagreement on risk, the "more conservative opinion wins" approach is commonly used, but the real answer is 14 CFR 91.3(a).

Unless this is a multi or seaplane, you're PIC, not the instructor.
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I think the point is that it's a policy that should be adopted by the PIC.
 
Unregistered said:
I disagree. I have flown with many CFIs over the years and have benefited from their varied experience and knowledge. I still fly with my old instrument instructor once in a while because we are friends but I always look forward to a checkride or other flight with someone new.
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Agreed, a different prospective can help greatly, especially when you're stuck or someone teaching style isn't meshing with you, BUT changing things up right before solo, or a checkride WILL cost you more hours.

Unregistered said:
I think that's a little harsh and 90% may be a little high, but IMO there are far too many newly-minted CFIIs with near-zero real flying experience in IMC and in the IFR environment. I always tell aspiring birdmen to seek out the old bears who instruct because they love it and who have years of experience and not just "dual given."
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Indeed, 90% is hogwash, one tip for finding good CFIs is stay away from the large schools which hire fresh CPL/CFIs, finding the freelance professional pilot / CFI will most always give you better results. Obvious I know.
 
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MAKG1 said:
If there really is a disagreement on risk, the "more conservative opinion wins" approach is commonly used, but the real answer is 14 CFR 91.3(a).

Unless this is a multi or seaplane, you're PIC, not the instructor.
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Why would the instructor not be pilot in command?
 
flyingron said:
Why should he be? Unless they are actually flying IFR (which is really only required for the XC flight) it's not required.
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1) flying under IFR
2) club rules
3) he's the instructor, it's a training flight, someone has to be in charge
4) he has more experience than the student
5) liability reasons for the instructor
6) alleviate any question as to who is PIC
7) student may be unable to serve as PIC (lacks necessary endorsements, medical, etc.)

Besides, he would have a hard time defending that he wasn't PIC if there was an incident.
 
Brad Z said:
3) he's the instructor, it's a training flight, someone has to be in charge
4) he has more experience than the student
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Neither of these are compelling reasons.
6) alleviate any question as to who is PIC
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Any time you have more than one pilot it behooves you to work out what people are doing, not just PIC vs. not.
Besides, he would have a hard time defending that he wasn't PIC if there was an incident.
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Not my problem as a student.
 
I would change the instructor just because I would want to have another set of eyes on my performance before fol g to the check ride... 15 hours is still a lot of time...
 
Of course the 90% number is a made up number. It could be 89% or 91%.

But if you lined every CFI up shoulder to shoulder, closed your eyes, and threw a baseball in the general vicinity of the line, your odds would be MUCH higher that you hit a bad one than a good one.

And he'll be the one that starts his complaint about being hit with a baseball by saying "You know, I was told that..."
 
SkyHog said:
But if you lined every CFI up shoulder to shoulder, closed your eyes, and threw a baseball in the general vicinity of the line, your odds would be MUCH higher that you hit a bad one than a good one.
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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

...really?. :rolleyes2:
 
SkyHog said:
Of course the 90% number is a made up number. It could be 89% or 91%.

But if you lined every CFI up shoulder to shoulder, closed your eyes, and threw a baseball in the general vicinity of the line, your odds would be MUCH higher that you hit a bad one than a good one.

And he'll be the one that starts his complaint about being hit with a baseball by saying "You know, I was told that..."
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I've seen 50/50 or so around here, but it's easy to tell pretty quickly. Most of the really good young ones don't stick around, unfortunately. On the other hand, the bad young ones are also short timers. The good older ones are my favorites so far.
 
James331 said:
Right?

Sounds a lot like some kid in school blaming his poor marks on all the teachers.
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It would, except I never had a CFI give me a "bad mark." I've had CFIs that I did not use more than once because they started regurgitating "knowledge" that they couldn't back up though.
 
By the way, I never understood why CFIs balk at that argument. Certainly, you think you're a good CFI, right? So clearly, I'm not talking about you, but one of your competitors.
 
I think I'm OK, my students and peers seem to like me.

That said, the chances of 90% of all CFIs being bad, come on.
 
As Carl Sagan used to say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
 
SkyHog said:
90%+ of CFIs are garbage and have no business teaching or flying. The other 10% are tough to find, but you'll know it when you see it.
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Where did you get this figure from (or the 89 to 91)? My experience has been more like the opposite. I'm just a recreational flyer, and I've been taught by 6 different CFI's (1 for my PPL, 1 for tailwheel, and 4 different CFI's for various BFRs, etc). Only one was a tool. I understand that my experience is a small sample, but 90% garbage?
 
SkyHog said:
90%+ of CFIs are garbage and have no business teaching or flying. .
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90% of students are ignorant, garbage, and have no business trying to learn to fly!

Now, isn't that a ridiculous statement? Of course it is. So was yours.:yesnod:
 
mscard88 said:
90% of students are ignorant, garbage, and have no business trying to learn to fly!

Now, isn't that a ridiculous statement? Of course it is. So was yours.:yesnod:
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Lets say that is true (hell, it might be). The correct response would be for a CFI to coach them and make them non-ignorant, and good pilots.

But, to prove my earlier point, too many CFIs (90%+ perhaps?) would "fire" that student because they deem them unfit to fly airplanes.
 
I dunno..based on 2014 statistics it looks like only 1/5 of 1% of people in the US are Active "airmen". About 593K out of 318 MM (2014).

If 90% of the students are garbage and 90% of CFI's are garbage that almost makes sense on some level..
 
To the OP :

I've flown with 11 CFIs - two were jerks. Another one had nothing useful to teach me but I needed their endorsement to rent a plane.

So my experience is that 73% of the CFIs I've had contact with were competent, personable and effective instructors.

I suggest you find somebody else.
 
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