Should I replace my ADF?

[steingar]

The Lucky Strike came with an ADF. The previous owner said he used it to listen to ball games, but it certainly doesn't point to anything. I am going to use the aircraft as an IFR trainer in the Spring.

My thinking is that I could replace the ADF with a working unit for not a lot of money. I'd rather put in an IFR GPS, but I don't see that in the cards for the foreseeable future. The things are pricey, and installation costs are tantamount to getting raped up the six.

I'm told ADF approaches are rare on the ground, but my airport has one as does my nearest neighbor. Could come in handy in a pinch.

Thoughts?

 

[JoseCuervo]

How often do people actually fly when there is a ballgame to listen to??


And, a SiriusXM solution would likely be better...

 

[tyndall]

My field has a beacon too. Had a gps failure at night (vfr). Dialed in the beacon and followed the arrow home. Loads of other/better ways to recover your bearings, but an adf requires zero thinking while you get the other ways prepared. I'd hate to be without one, but the weight loss is so tempting. I'd ditch my vor before I'd ditch the adf, for the flying I do. If you ever fly to Canada, most small fields are all ndb.

 

[RotorDude]

My field has a beacon too. Had a gps failure at night (vfr). Dialed in the beacon and followed the arrow home. Loads of other/better ways to recover your bearings, but an adf requires zero thinking while you get the other ways prepared. I'd hate to be without one, but the weight loss is so tempting. I'd ditch my vor before I'd ditch the adf, for the flying I do. If you ever fly to Canada, most small fields are all ndb.

While that statement may be true, to my knowledge most (if not all) NDB approaches in Canada have a GPS overlay, so you don't need ADF to fly them.

 

[flyingron]

I removed my WORKING ADF and replaced it with the XM Radio for ballgames ten years ago. I've not had any qualms subsequently with its absence. I should've yanked the silly DME as well.

 

[James331]

Ditch it if you're going to do it right.

Remove the box, the head, ALL the wiring etc.

Otherwise just leave it be.

 

[Grum.Man]

If you need it in your plane to keep it ifr rated I would keep it. I enjoy NDB approaches and enjoy tinkering with it from time to time. It's a simple fairly enexpensive backup. If you don't need it for ifr then I would say spend the money on a kln94 or 89b and have an ifr GPS for fairly cheap.

 

[steingar]

If you need it in your plane to keep it ifr rated I would keep it. I enjoy NDB approaches and enjoy tinkering with it from time to time. It's a simple fairly enexpensive backup. If you don't need it for ifr then I would say spend the money on a kln94 or 89b and have an ifr GPS for fairly cheap.

I've thought heavily about this, but as far as I know there is no such thing as a cheap IFR GPS. They cost buku money to install, even the old ones. Antennas, connections, annunciators, oh my!

ADF is plug 'n play.

 

[Grum.Man]

I've thought heavily about this, but as far as I know there is no such thing as a cheap IFR GPS. They cost buku money to install, even the old ones. Antennas, connections, annunciators, oh my!

ADF is plug 'n play.

There is varying amounts of "buku" though. It depends on your mission and the planes worth. I wouldn't even consider putting a Garmin GPS in my Grumman but I would consider a kln89b. You will easily save 10k if all you want is to fly approaches or be able to file direct.

 

[steingar]

There is varying amounts of "buku" though. It depends on your mission and the planes worth. I wouldn't even consider putting a Garmin GPS in my Grumman but I would consider a kln89b. You will easily save 10k if all you want is to fly approaches or be able to file direct.

Sure, except you'll easily blow through a couple or few AMUs getting that old box into your panel. I've priced this in the past, it is EXPENSIVE. Whether you put in an old b&w box or a new colorful one, there's lots of stuff to hook up and install.

I'd do it if I could but I can't so I won't.

 

[Brad Z]

NDB approaches were always my favorite approach to fly from a skills perspective, but it's 2016, not 1986, and any NDB approach that still exists is in borrowed time. Unless it costs you exactly $0 to make functional, it's not a good investment. Any money spent on the avionics should be spent making it WAAS capable if used for IFR.

 

[Brad Z]

There is varying amounts of "buku" though. It depends on your mission and the planes worth. I wouldn't even consider putting a Garmin GPS in my Grumman but I would consider a kln89b. You will easily save 10k if all you want is to fly approaches or be able to file direct.

Is buying and installing a kln89B free? Because a 430W installed is $10k.

I would never buy a King 89B or 94 for an aircraft--no matter how cheap it was--unless I was replacing a busted existing unit.

 

[somorris]

I know most of the people here don't agree with me, but I like having redundancy that relies on different systems, like GPS, VOR and ADF. Hopefully, if you are flying and something goes wrong with your primary system (GPS if you have it, and not just your aircraft equipment), you will still have something to use to get back on the ground safely. Also, like you indicated, installing a GPS is expensive, too expensive for a lot of us. I would try to find a working replacement unit and slide it in.

 

[mondtster]

If you ever fly to Canada, most small fields are all ndb.

That is true not only in Canada, but some places in the US too. If for no other reason, there are some airports that broadcast the AWOS over the NDB so you'd either need an ADF, ADS-B in, or to ask a controller for the weather at your destination to shoot an approach into one of those airports.

If the OP doesn't intend to fly into one of the areas that has many NDBs I could see why he might be tempted to take it out. But I'd personally leave it installed for a bit and fix it, if it isn't going to take much to get it working.

 

[Brad Z]

I know most of the people here don't agree with me, but I like having redundancy that relies on different systems, like GPS, VOR and ADF. Hopefully, if you are flying and something goes wrong with your primary system (GPS if you have it, and not just your aircraft equipment), you will still have something to use to get back on the ground safely. Also, like you indicated, installing a GPS is expensive, too expensive for a lot of us. I would try to find a working replacement unit and slide it in.

I agree with you regarding VORs, but there is no plan to have ANY federal NDBs for enroute or approach. Doesn't seem like a very good backup going forward.

 

[Clark1961]

Lots of folks have talked about this-n-that of the ADF in the aircraft. The other side of the coin is the NDB. Lots of them are being neglected. From personal experience I know it doesn't do a bit of good to tune an NDB that isn't transmitting...at one airport I called on unicom to get them to check the on field beacon...sure enough the ADF came alive a few minutes later.

 

[Paul Hamilton]

I'm based in the Washington DC Flight Restricted Zone (FRZ). If my transponder fails, I can't get home. Consequently, I swapped my perfectly good, working ADF for a backup transponder. My ADF sits on a table. Interested?

Paul

 

[flyingron]

If for no other reason, there are some airports that broadcast the AWOS over the NDB so you'd either need an ADF, ADS-B in, or to ask a controller for the weather at your destination to shoot an approach into one of those airports.

The XM added for the ball games takes care of this as well.

I can't vouch for Canada, but I suspect these situations are getting less common in the US as well. It's a whole lot easier to maintain a GPS approach than it is to keep these ground based navaids going. Our NDB was always a basket case. They decommissioned it the minute that the RNAV approach became available.

Years ago, I was based in Baltimore and I always noted the Institute NDB sitting in the middle of town. I figured it was at the UofM medical campus but one day I was touring Shockarama with a bunch of other paramedics and I found it sitting on top of an equipment rack there. The guys there were surprised I even knew what it was.

 

[flyingron]

I'm based in the Washington DC Flight Restricted Zone (FRZ). If my transponder fails, I can't get home. Consequently, I swapped my perfectly good, working ADF for a backup transponder. My ADF sits on a table. Interested?

Paul

I'm just outside the noise (though I was based at VKX on 9/11 and in the first bunch given the FRZ pins), I hadn't thought of that. I'm about to put a new ES transponder in, but I might indeed leave my old GTX33 remote channeled through the 480 as a backup.

 

[Maverick]

When I had my Cardinal RG I had a very nice King panel, although somewhat antiquated by today's standards. I had an HSI and and RMI, RNAV, Comm, ADF, NAVComm, DME and STEC 60-2 autopilot coupled to the HSI. I also had a Trimble VFR GPS. The RMI made NDB approaches really easy and fun to do. In all my flying I practiced all of the approach types other than GPS. In actual IFR the only approaches that I made were ILS. So other than practicing NDB approaches the ADF really didn't do me much good. When I sold the Cardinal one of the first things the new owner did was to remove the ADF, DME and Trimble GPS and had a Garmin 530 put in.

 

[GLMS_NC]

Get ride of it, the extra weight, the junk wiring, etc. ZERO need in today's environment for one.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I've thought heavily about this, but as far as I know there is no such thing as a cheap IFR GPS. They cost buku money to install, even the old ones. Antennas, connections, annunciators, oh my!

We TOLD you to go experimental, but nooooo, you had to buy a Mooney.

Seriously, you're just going to be stuck paying outrageous prices for outdated technology. It's the FAA way.

 

[steingar]

We TOLD you to go experimental, but nooooo, you had to buy a Mooney.

Sorry, I needed an airplane that could take some luggage for Mrs. Steingar. And she does not like the canopy. Hence that is the reason I didn't get an RV.

Seriously, you're just going to be stuck paying outrageous prices for outdated technology. It's the FAA way.

IFR certification is expensive any way you look at it, experimental or not. I am thinking on getting a bit of extra function on the cheap. Like I said, an IFR GPS is way to expensive!

 

[EdFred]

We TOLD you to go experimental, but nooooo, you had to buy a Mooney.

Seriously, you're just going to be stuck paying outrageous prices for outdated technology. It's the FAA way.

What IFR certified GPS can go in an experimental that can't go into a certified?

 

[Grum.Man]

What IFR certified GPS can go in an experimental that can't go into a certified?

There isn't, but what you do save is installation cost!

 

[steingar]

There isn't, but what you do save is installation cost!

Assuming you're competent doing this sort of work, which I'm not in any way, shape, or form. Heck, if I was I'd install the thing and get a mechanic to sign off on it.

 

[flyingron]

Assuming you're competent doing this sort of work, which I'm not in any way, shape, or form. Heck, if I was I'd install the thing and get a mechanic to sign off on it.

And note that if we're talking about a multifunction unit that contains a com radio (transmitter) in it, you have to have someone legally licensed by the FCC approve the work. Aviation and Marine (47 CFR 80 and 87) are about the only thing left in the radio world that hadn't had that requirement deregulated away.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I removed my WORKING ADF and replaced it with the XM Radio for ballgames ten years ago. I've not had any qualms subsequently with its absence. I should've yanked the silly DME as well.

Do you have an IFR GPS?

These days, I can definitely see the reason to rip out the ADF, but I find that there are still a lot of instrument approaches that require DME, so unless you are getting it from an IFR GPS, the DME is pretty handy.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I've thought heavily about this, but as far as I know there is no such thing as a cheap IFR GPS. They cost buku money to install, even the old ones. Antennas, connections, annunciators, oh my!



ADF is plug 'n play.

True, but if you are at all serious about filing and flying IFR, you are better off ditching the ADF and saving up for the GPS rather than spend any more money keeping the ADF going.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

If you have the space on your panel and the money for it, why not?

 

[flyingron]

Do you have an IFR GPS?

These days, I can definitely see the reason to rip out the ADF, but I find that there are still a lot of instrument approaches that require DME, so unless you are getting it from an IFR GPS, the DME is pretty handy.

Yes, I have an IFR GPS (and a DME). I put the DME in before I had the GPS (and in fact, really before there was legal IFR GPS substitution) precisely for the reason you mention. Several of the more convenient approaches at my home airport (IAD) at the time were ILS/DME's. It's also handy for even VFR navigation around class B airspace (let alone the SFRA nonsense). I kept it because it was only a few years old when I upgraded the panel and unlike my KR-86 it didn't take up much room. I've not turned it on hardly since.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Assuming you're competent doing this sort of work, which I'm not in any way, shape, or form. Heck, if I was I'd install the thing and get a mechanic to sign off on it.

Installing avionics isn't any different, or harder, than installing an 8-track player in your '67 Pontiac. Especially nowadays, where the avionics shop lays out and laser cuts the panel to fit the plane and the trays.

To wit, in 2014 an RV friend and I removed my old panel and installed an entirely new panel in the RV. It was designed and precut by Stein Air in Minnesota. The installation was hard work, but there was nothing beyond the capability of any reasonably coordinated person with a very basic knowledge of electricity.

Bottom line: If you can pass the Private written, and pilot an airplane, you can certainly install avionics, with some guidance and study. It ain't rocket science.

 

[Ted]

While Jay is going off on his "You should have bought a plane that doesn't meet your mission requirements because it's BETTER!" rant, let's have some reality.

ADF approaches are a pain and for the flying you do, are being phased out. I've done a good amount of flying in Canada in planes with ADFs in them. I have always shot GPS approaches. In fact, the NBDs have been non-functional typically. It depends on the airport.

While a backup sounds nice, NDBs are going the way of the 4-course range. They will be gone before long. Yes, an IFR GPS is $$$ to install, so may be out of the cards for the moment. But an ADF won't be of any real help when you fly IFR anyway, and you're better off saving the money for an IFR GPS and the weight for more of Mrs. Steingar's baggage.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Installing avionics isn't any different, or harder, than installing an 8-track player in your '67 Pontiac..............

Bottom line: If you can pass the Private written, and pilot an airplane, you can certainly install avionics, with some guidance and study. It ain't rocket science.

Being a US Navy trained Avionics Tech, as well as experience installing avionics in GA airplanes, those comments are, well.......considering the source.

I've seen my share of "owner installed" avionics, as well as my share of Radio Shack and NAPA components used in place of manufacturer required components in installations.

But, by all means, carry on.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Being a US Navy trained Avionics Tech, as well as experience installing avionics in GA airplanes, those comments are, well.......considering the source.

I've seen my share of "owner installed" avionics, as well as my share of Radio Shack and NAPA components used in place of manufacturer required components in installations.

But, by all means, carry on.

lol Yes, there are many technical skills involved with diagnosing and adjusting old school avionics. I still remember my avionics tech buddy tinkering with my old Narco transponder, trying to get it right.

Almost all of the need for those skills has been eliminated with the new stuff we are putting in experimental planes. As far as installation goes, well, if you think it's difficult, I guess our skill levels are different. As I said, putting in an all new glass panel wasn't technically any harder than installing my first car stereo in the 1970s. Easier, in some ways, thanks to the all-new components and the rack system in the new panel.

Installing the panel was a pleasant experience with a fantastic outcome. Anyone with basic technical skills and the ability to follow a wiring diagram should have little difficulty. I know Dr. Steingar would have no trouble, given his origami skills.

 

[flyingron]

I guess the regulations don't make any difference to you. The exceptions given to your experimental aircraft only apply to 14 CFR 43 not Title 47.

 

[Everskyward]

The Lucky Strike came with an ADF. The previous owner said he used it to listen to ball games, but it certainly doesn't point to anything. I am going to use the aircraft as an IFR trainer in the Spring.

My thinking is that I could replace the ADF with a working unit for not a lot of money. I'd rather put in an IFR GPS, but I don't see that in the cards for the foreseeable future. The things are pricey, and installation costs are tantamount to getting raped up the six.

I'm told ADF approaches are rare on the ground, but my airport has one as does my nearest neighbor. Could come in handy in a pinch.

Thoughts?

Are either of them somewhere on this list?

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...rts/media/Underutilized_or_Redundant_IAPs.pdf

NDBs and NDB approaches are going away. Maybe 10-15 years ago it would have paid to replace your ADF. As it is, I think you would be better off saving that money to put towards a GPS.

 

[tsts4]

This kind of concerns me with regard to upcoming ADS-B out requirement. It is my understanding that ATC will eventually provide separation services based on ADS-B data.

How do we know Billy Bob wired up his home grown avionics correctly? I guess there is still a transponder cert requirement that at least provides some quality control, provided Billy Bob thinks those rules apply to him.

You are correct in that the part 91 inspections are required where applicable. I think your concerns would be valid if guys were home brewing the actual avionics, but that's not the case, at least not that I'm aware of. Building a wiring harness and physically installing the components isn't difficult at all.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I guess the regulations don't make any difference to you. The exceptions given to your experimental aircraft only apply to 14 CFR 43 not Title 47.

He could do the work under proper "supervision", no?

 

[Jay Honeck]

This kind of concerns me with regard to upcoming ADS-B out requirement. It is my understanding that ATC will eventually provide separation services based on ADS-B data.

How do we know Billy Bob wired up his home grown avionics correctly? I guess there is still a transponder cert requirement that at least provides some quality control, provided Billy Bob thinks those rules apply to him.

lol ADS-B in/out was probably the easiest part of my panel installation. The "hard" part of ADS-B was installing two external antennas.

Like I said, it ain't rocket science. If you can connect your Blu-ray player to a stereo and an HDTV, you're 90% of the way to being qualified to install the new avionics.