Student crosswind landings

exncsurfer

exncsurfer

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exncsurfer
In addition to my CFI, I would like to hear from some POA 'experts' regarding my crosswind landing issues.

I had a pattern session the other day where there was about a 6-7 knot crosswind from the left. I was setting up fine and getting to the touchdown point on speed. Once the wheels touch is where my problems came. It seems like I was fairly consistently veering off to the right after touchdown. I thought my nose was still raised when this was happening but perhaps it wasn't and the nose wheel steering was causing this?

He mentioned weather vaning, but I thought weather vane tendencies should be pulling me to the left on a tricycle with a left crosswind right?

My CFI was blaming it on inadequate aileron into the wind after touchdown. Could that cause a right veering in a crosswind from the left? I though I was holding the aileron constant (but I should've been increasing it). He thought I was relaxing it.

I was all over the place for the first few, I dialed it in pretty well towards the end of the session and was staying near center line.

That right veering tendency was catching me by surprise.
 
Just takes practice. Keep in mind that you lose control authority as you drop airspeed so you need to increase control inputs as you slow down.
 
It sounds to me like you're relaxing the controls once the wheels meet pavement. Don't do this. Keep flying the airplane and increase the control corrections the slower you get.

Yes, relaxing any correction will let the airplane veer right with a left crosswind.

Signed,

"expert"
 
As you slow down the plane you in essence put the aileron all the way into the wind not less. But the truth is as you fly more don't focus on where the wind i coming from the plane will tell you and show you where its coming from and you counteract like that instead of just hey its coming in from the right lets just put right aileron just feel the plane and it will guide you to a nice safe landing.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
It sounds to me like you're relaxing the controls once the wheels meet pavement. Don't do this. Keep flying the airplane and increase the control corrections the slower you get.

Yes, relaxing any correction will let the airplane veer right with a left crosswind.

Signed,

"expert"
Click to expand...


Thanks for the input. Wouldn't you need to relax the right rudder though? (rudder causing pivot about the mains at that point?) Pretty sure I was holding that steady(and I thought that might have been causing the veering).

I know, its fluid, I just need to get better at reading and responding on the fly.

I can hear the King's answer, How much rudder, just enough to keep you pointing straight..., haha.
 
I would suggest having going up with your CFI where he/she knows what the wind is doing (for safety) but not tell you. This is a Rod Machado trick. Get yourself on final without knowing which direction the wind is coming from and let the plane tell you where and how to land.

As for your steering issue, it sounds like your control forces are no longer in balance after you touch down. You'll have opposite rudder in as you go from a slip/crab into a wing-low touchdown attitude. The control forces will change as your aileron loses authority but your rudder remains effective in the slipstream. So you'll need to adjust your rudder input accordingly.

There's also a chance that you have your toe on the brake...
 
jimbilly said:
Thanks for the input. Wouldn't you need to relax the right rudder though? (rudder causing pivot about the mains at that point?) Pretty sure I was holding that steady(and I thought that might have been causing the veering).

I know, its fluid, I just need to get better at reading and responding on the fly.

I can hear the King's answer, How much rudder, just enough to keep you pointing straight..., haha.
Click to expand...

You don't mention the type of airplane, but...

I trained several paraplegic students in Cherokees using a hand control. At the moment of crosswind touchdown they removed ALL rudder input and let Newton's laws of motion take over: If the airplane is moving parallel to the centerline at touchdown it will continue in that direction unless disturbed. Left hands were busy with the ailerons counteracting drift. As stated earlier, aileron deflection should be increased,not decreased, until the yoke is all the way over into the wind....and that is where it should be as you begin a crosswind takeoff.

Bob Gardner
 
jimbilly said:
Thanks for the input. Wouldn't you need to relax the right rudder though? (rudder causing pivot about the mains at that point?) Pretty sure I was holding that steady(and I thought that might have been causing the veering).

I know, its fluid, I just need to get better at reading and responding on the fly.

I can hear the King's answer, How much rudder, just enough to keep you pointing straight..., haha.
Click to expand...
Relaxing the rudder the moment you touch down allows for the left crosswind to take over directional control and will point the airplane to the left.

Relaxing the aileron input the moment you touch down allows the left crosswind wind to push you to the right.

It's a fine balance between the two.

Maintain centerline with the rudder pedals.
Maintain drift with your ailerons.

There really is no secret or special formula to crosswind landings. You give the airplane the control inputs it needs. Hint: They're constantly changing.
 
You can tell the difference between rudder and aileron effects by feel.

Just after touchdown, getting the aileron wrong will let the airplane slide or skip across the runway. Getting the rudder wrong will just point the nose in the wrong direction. Correcting the latter is almost subconscious once you know how to taxi the airplane. The former takes some practice.

The amount of rudder or aileron to use is just enough to keep those from happening.

I've screwed it up with a 20 knot crosswind before. Fortunately on a 150 foot wide runway. It was definitely a meek aileron.
 
No matter how much you bounce, keep the airplane straight to its direction of travel by pushing on the rudders and manipulating the ailerons.
 
jimbilly said:
Thanks for the input. Wouldn't you need to relax the right rudder though? (rudder causing pivot about the mains at that point?) Pretty sure I was holding that steady(and I thought that might have been causing the veering).
Click to expand...
Could be both or either. But keep in mind that the neutralization of ailerons with a left crosswind is going to result in the lifting of the left wing, which is going to send you to the right.

Remember what you do when taxiing in a crosswind - that's all you are doing once the nosewheel touches down - taxiing. What is that position and why? (Yes, that's "correlation" for those into CFI prep) You need to move the ailerons to that position and steer with your feet.

You are actually describing the single most common error in crosswind landings I see as an instructor - the failure to anticipate and move from crosswind landing deflection to crosswind taxi deflection. And I'd bet its also the cause of most tricycle gear crosswind landing accidents since very few of those take place while the airplane is still in the air.
 
Have you a rather "robust" physique at your arm/shoulder level? An armrest to your left? If so, as you come back with the yoke it forces your hand up, taking out the aileron correction resulting in a drift to the right.

dtuuri
 
It would help a bit to know what kind of airplane you are flying. If you are flying a cherokee or something with a direct connection to the nosewheel this can be a common issue as you transition from rudder steering to nosewheel steering, If this is the case you will pretty quickly learn to anticipate it.

The other common issue is simply not getting the correct sight picture as to what is straight down the runway for the airplane. If this is the case then you are simply seeing what is effect an illusion, you are seeing the airplane as straight with the runway when it is not, the fix is to anticipate this and intentionally land with a sight picture that looks like it is not straight. In your case land with the nose pointed slightly left of where you think it should be. Again this is a fairly common issue for students, and interestingly often doesn't occur until after you have a few hours of practicing take offs and landings. I think it is due to you getting more comfortable with the landings and having enough extra brain power to start analyzing what you are actually doing.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
It would help a bit to know what kind of airplane you are flying. If you are flying a cherokee or something with a direct connection to the nosewheel this can be a common issue as you transition from rudder steering to nosewheel steering, If this is the case you will pretty quickly learn to anticipate it.

The other common issue is simply not getting the correct sight picture as to what is straight down the runway for the airplane. If this is the case then you are simply seeing what is effect an illusion, you are seeing the airplane as straight with the runway when it is not, the fix is to anticipate this and intentionally land with a sight picture that looks like it is not straight. In your case land with the nose pointed slightly left of where you think it should be. Again this is a fairly common issue for students, and interestingly often doesn't occur until after you have a few hours of practicing take offs and landings. I think it is due to you getting more comfortable with the landings and having enough extra brain power to start analyzing what you are actually doing.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input.

It is a 172 tricycle, with nose wheel steering.

I do find it hard to tell what is 'lined up'. When my CFI sets it for me, it always seems like its off to the right to me.
 
jimbilly said:
Thanks for the input.

It is a 172 tricycle, with nose wheel steering.

I do find it hard to tell what is 'lined up'. When my CFI sets it for me, it always seems like its off to the right to me.
Click to expand...

There is "lined up" and then there is "on center." Do you mean the latter?

If so, that's just parallax error you're used to compensating for in a car. In the airplane, put the centerline between your legs, and you're on center. There is very little parallax error in a 172.
 
MAKG1 said:
There is "lined up" and then there is "on center." Do you mean the latter?

If so, that's just parallax error you're used to compensating for in a car. In the airplane, put the centerline between your legs, and you're on center. There is very little parallax error in a 172.
Click to expand...

Yea, I mean lined up on the yaw axis, not the left to right runway centering which is easier to see based on perspective and the left right runway corner angles matching. When I think the nose is pointed down the runway, the CFI would likely correct it significantly to the right with rudder. I try to get this in my head when I'm on the ground. The AI seems to line up pretty well centered, so I try to use that as a guide. Not much on the cowl to site with.

I don't think this is so much related to my 'right veering' problem the other day, if anything , my left yaw tendency would've had the opposite affect.
 
MAKG1 said:
Most 172s have a rivet line on the cowling right in front of each front seat.
Click to expand...

I didn't know if that rivet line was straight or more like: /\

I think i'd have to lean right a little to line up with that.
 
Is it happening suddenly or gradually?

If you're touching down without enough crosswind correction and the nose wheel off the ground, the airplane will pivot downwind initially as the mains touch.

From there it's a simple matter of over- or under-controlling to exacerbate the problem. ;)
 
Planes behave best when they are in full flying mode (all weight supported by the wings) or full taxi mode (all weight on the wheels). Minimize the time spent in between. Killing the angle of attack on touchdown gets weight on the wheels and gives them control authority.
 
Graueradler said:
Planes behave best when they are in full flying mode (all weight supported by the wings) or full taxi mode (all weight on the wheels). Minimize the time spent in between. Killing the angle of attack on touchdown gets weight on the wheels and gives them control authority.
Click to expand...

It also makes training 172 nose wheels shimmy real hard.

They "fly" decently on the runway at high speed taxi. Even on two wheels, in the absence of a really strong crosswind.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Is it happening suddenly or gradually?

If you're touching down without enough crosswind correction and the nose wheel off the ground, the airplane will pivot downwind initially as the mains touch.

From there it's a simple matter of over- or under-controlling to exacerbate the problem. ;)
Click to expand...

I'd say gradually. I don't think I was coming in with side load, it wasn't jerky.

Sounds like I just need to increase the aileron to full as I slow and make more positive adjustments to rudder after touchdown.
 
Crosswinds are tricky. A lot of students tend the give up on the crosswind upon touchdown. Like others have said, keep the crosswind correction in all the way down the runway.
 
jimbilly said:
In addition to my CFI, I would like to hear from some POA 'experts' regarding my crosswind landing issues.

I had a pattern session the other day where there was about a 6-7 knot crosswind from the left. I was setting up fine and getting to the touchdown point on speed. Once the wheels touch is where my problems came. It seems like I was fairly consistently veering off to the right after touchdown. I thought my nose was still raised when this was happening but perhaps it wasn't and the nose wheel steering was causing this?

He mentioned weather vaning, but I thought weather vane tendencies should be pulling me to the left on a tricycle with a left crosswind right?

My CFI was blaming it on inadequate aileron into the wind after touchdown. Could that cause a right veering in a crosswind from the left? I though I was holding the aileron constant (but I should've been increasing it). He thought I was relaxing it.

I was all over the place for the first few, I dialed it in pretty well towards the end of the session and was staying near center line.

That right veering tendency was catching me by surprise.
Click to expand...

No, in a tricycle once the main touches and becomes the pivot and is behind CG which was the fulcrum when you were flying, and the rudder leverage changes, so the nose will fall off if you don't correct with rudder. It's all pretty irrelevant though, look ahead across the cowl and keep the plane pointed where you want with your feet, and control the side to side drift with the ailerons.
 
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