What to look for in big land?

[Everskyward]

One thing I don't have is a generator backup. But in 25 years the power has never gone out for more than about 6 hours and that was only once. Woke up in the cold, went to work, but by the afternoon, I called my phone number to see if the answering machine would pick up. It did, so the power was restored sometime during the day. I would have gotten a room in town if it hadn't been restored. I think this is probably because of the underground electric. If the power goes out it's because one of the main lines has gone down which I assume they fix quicker than someone's individual line to their house.

 

[LoneAspen]

I used to live in Colorado, and at one time owned a house with a well.

Re: wells, find out everything you can about that well, including the type of permit it has. From what I recall, there are various types of well permits that dictate what the water can be used for. For example, some permits might be for household only use, or for limited livestock watering, etc. Even though it's a 40 acre parcel and you could have horses and other livestock, the well permit might restrict what you can use the water for.

Also, regardless of the type of permit, make sure you, as the buyer, have your own independent tests done for purity and production. At the time I bought my house in Colorado, it was common for the seller to have any septic systems inspected and/or pumped, but it was the buyer's responsibility to have the well checked for anything they were interested in.

You want to make sure you know the well's production (gallons per minute) and static level (how many gallons it holds without pumping). When I had the well tested of the house I ended up buying, I remember the well drilling company I hired to do the inspection hooked some equipment up and tried to pump it dry for like 30 minutes so they could get readings on both production and static level. My well ended up being fine for both, but I can't remember the numbers. If you have a well tested, make sure you go with a good reputable well drilling company in the area, who is aware of things like the local water conditions, aquifer, etc.

I ran across this diagram that shows a well layout, that might be of use: http://mbmggwic.mtech.edu/sqlserver/v11/help/welldesign.asp

To test purity, I remember taking some samples of the water and having them sent off to some lab for tests, and they sent back the results. It was a little heavy in some minerals, but nothing out of the ordinary with wells, so it was fine.

If you pursue tests of this kind, make sure you account for the time required to do them in your inspection timeframes in the contract. You want to make sure you have enough time to complete all your inspections like this by the deadline in the contract, so that if anything looks bad, you have a chance to get out of the contract.

Good luck with your pursuit of the property! Can't wait to get back to Colorado myself hopefully next year.

EDIT: Forgot to mention...one other thing to look for when researching the well permit is to try and find out if the well ever had to be drilled deeper in the past, which could include the water level dropped, it ran dry, and had to be drilled deeper. Or, if there was a well somewhere else on the property that went dry and they abandoned it, capped it off, and had to dig a new well. All that kind of info will be important to know in making your decision about the viability of the well. I remember the well driller I used telling me one thing a lot of people don't think of is the deeper the well, the more expensive it is for the pump and cable, because the deeper it is, the more powerful a pump they have to put in it, and I guess the power cable to it has to be bigger (or something like that). Anyway, possibly useful info, so thought I'd throw it in.

 

[SkyHog]

The pellet stove made me think of something else. Does the house even have ducting for forced air? I know someone who heats with a wood stove because his house has no ducting. It was originally built to heat with electric which is very expensive. He said that adding the ducting would be a major project. But then it seems that your proposed house is a project so you might be able to add ducting at that time.

It does have ducting and the house is listed as having forced air heat. The pellet stove is just in the finished basement (that's how my house in Monument is too, I guess it must be a fairly common design decision).

 

[SkyHog]

I am doubting that it has natural gas. One of the selling points of the subdivision I live in is that is has natural gas (and underground electric). Most other places I checked on heated with propane. These were large lot subdivisions, not a 40 acre parcel, but it was also 25 years ago. I don't know what is available now. But if it currently only has a pellet stove I would not think it had natural gas.

I don't know if your job or hobbies depends on a fast ISP but that can also be an issue out in the sticks. At my house the DSL is slow and wireless is not that great either. Your property may have an advantage since you said it doesn't have trees. I think my signal is partially blocked by trees. I guess satellite is also an option but I have heard that is slow too.

As far as living in a place like that, I'm wondering if you grew up in a similar location or if it is a romantic notion of living off the land, so to speak. It might be fine for kids while they are young but I have heard older kids around here complaining of nothing to do. Of course you could put them to work restoring the property which might not be finished yet. From the time they get restless to the time they drive, someone will need to do the transporting. I don't know about the area you are thinking of, but the two-lane main roads around here are not exactly suited for bicycles. They have little to no shoulders. The only people I see riding bicycles are hard-core adults.

Some people move out to "the country" and love it. Others leave after a few years. You and your wife know best how you think you will react, but it's good to consider some of these things which you might not have thought of.

I grew up in Albuquerque. But, when we lived in North Carolina, we had some land, albeit not this much.

My wife, on the other hand, grew up on 15 acres. Her parents still live there and I help them anytime we go back to visit. My dream has always been to live a self sufficient lifestyle, and I have a lot of experience working land with friends who have done similar things through the years.

 

[denverpilot]

I used to live in Colorado, and at one time owned a house with a well.

Re: wells, find out everything you can about that well, including the type of permit it has. From what I recall, there are various types of well permits that dictate what the water can be used for. For example, some permits might be for household only use, or for limited livestock watering, etc. Even though it's a 40 acre parcel and you could have horses and other livestock, the well permit might restrict what you can use the water for.

Also, regardless of the type of permit, make sure you, as the buyer, have your own independent tests done for purity and production. At the time I bought my house in Colorado, it was common for the seller to have any septic systems inspected and/or pumped, but it was the buyer's responsibility to have the well checked for anything they were interested in.

You want to make sure you know the well's production (gallons per minute) and static level (how many gallons it holds without pumping). When I had the well tested of the house I ended up buying, I remember the well drilling company I hired to do the inspection hooked some equipment up and tried to pump it dry for like 30 minutes so they could get readings on both production and static level. My well ended up being fine for both, but I can't remember the numbers. If you have a well tested, make sure you go with a good reputable well drilling company in the area, who is aware of things like the local water conditions, aquifer, etc.

I ran across this diagram that shows a well layout, that might be of use: http://mbmggwic.mtech.edu/sqlserver/v11/help/welldesign.asp

To test purity, I remember taking some samples of the water and having them sent off to some lab for tests, and they sent back the results. It was a little heavy in some minerals, but nothing out of the ordinary with wells, so it was fine.

If you pursue tests of this kind, make sure you account for the time required to do them in your inspection timeframes in the contract. You want to make sure you have enough time to complete all your inspections like this by the deadline in the contract, so that if anything looks bad, you have a chance to get out of the contract.

Good luck with your pursuit of the property! Can't wait to get back to Colorado myself hopefully next year.

EDIT: Forgot to mention...one other thing to look for when researching the well permit is to try and find out if the well ever had to be drilled deeper in the past, which could include the water level dropped, it ran dry, and had to be drilled deeper. Or, if there was a well somewhere else on the property that went dry and they abandoned it, capped it off, and had to dig a new well. All that kind of info will be important to know in making your decision about the viability of the well. I remember the well driller I used telling me one thing a lot of people don't think of is the deeper the well, the more expensive it is for the pump and cable, because the deeper it is, the more powerful a pump they have to put in it, and I guess the power cable to it has to be bigger (or something like that). Anyway, possibly useful info, so thought I'd throw it in.

This is great info.

Word here in our hood with wells at about 900' (with the water level usually around 400') is that it'll run $10K to re-drill if it's ever needed. $1000/100' all in, including new pump and electrics.

Very few need re-drilling but there's always a few. Needing to drop $10K to have water -- would sucketh mightily.

It does have ducting and the house is listed as having forced air heat. The pellet stove is just in the finished basement (that's how my house in Monument is too, I guess it must be a fairly common design decision).

I sent a pile of train of thought notes on it after I looked at the address. That half mile long driveway could be interesting.

Like the location up against that bluff though!

One weather thought. Upslope heavy snow usually starts with a low over your old home state and a southerly wind that will pile snow on the south side of the Palmer Divide. Then it'll swing easterly and dump hard. Doesn't happen super often but you're on the south side of Palmer there and you'll get more snow by far than we do.

Our heaviest here further north are northerly standard "Arctic" storms blowing like hell out of the north with blizzard conditions (you'd have some shielding from those) and the upslope storms that get PAST the Palmer Divide area and swing in from the east. Even then they haven't been pushed uphill enough yet to dump as much as they do when they get uphill further to the west. The ridge between us and Parker is our "see if we can cross it" area for snow. That and drifts in the roads even when plowed.

See PM for a bunch more food for thought.

 

[steingar]

Sounds like a boatload of work for a father of two with a day job.

 

[SkyDog58]

40 acres isn't enough for an airstrip out here....you gotta figure, in a square configuration, each side is only 1,320ft long. If I went corner to corner, that's 1,867 feet.

And that would be if the entire length of the property were usable as runway which most likely it is not. Any roads, trees, fences, buildings, etc. across the property line would reduce that 1,320' or 1,867' very quickly.

Now if rather than being 1/4 mi x 1/4 mi, it was 1/2 mi x 1/8 mi, you would have a workable layout for a runway.

 

[GrampaMark]

Sounds like a boatload of work for a father of two with a day job.

Thank you, Herr Stein. That, in literally 25 words, or less, is what the OP needs to understand.

Maintaining a rural residence with acreage, plus animals, is close to a full time job. The fact that the property under consideration has fallen into some disrepair should be a tipoff. Here in Montana there are many rural properties which are in similar circumstances. There are many, hopeful, urban refugees out there who don't realize (and don't want to hear about) the realities of country living. Those folks tend to underestimate, often by an order of magnitude, how much time it takes to do everything that needs to done on a rural property.

The OP needs to consider how many spare hours a day he has in his current situation and then make a brutally realistic assessment of the work that must be done to the rural property right away to make it live able, plus the amount of work required to meet his longer term objectives. If his current "spare time" isn't at least 6 or 8 hours a day he may want to reconsider. Just sayin'...

Mark

 

[SkyHog]

Thank you, Herr Stein. That, in literally 25 words, or less, is what the OP needs to understand.

Maintaining a rural residence with acreage, plus animals, is close to a full time job. The fact that the property under consideration has fallen into some disrepair should be a tipoff. Here in Montana there are many rural properties which are in similar circumstances. There are many, hopeful, urban refugees out there who don't realize (and don't want to hear about) the realities of country living. Those folks tend to underestimate, often by an order of magnitude, how much time it takes to do everything that needs to done on a rural property.

The OP needs to consider how many spare hours a day he has in his current situation and then make a brutally realistic assessment of the work that must be done to the rural property right away to make it live able, plus the amount of work required to meet his longer term objectives. If his current "spare time" isn't at least 6 or 8 hours a day he may want to reconsider. Just sayin'...

Mark

In all fairness, I am hardly an urban refugee here. I am a guy who does everything going himself already (car maintenance, home maintenance, etc). I also happen to have a wife that is a home maker. Between the two of us, we could easily throw 8 or more hours per day at upkeep.

I know it's fun to make fun of the damned city slickers, but you have to keep in mind that some people are cut out and some arent. Just because I grew up in a city (if you want to call Albuquerque a city) doesn't mean I'm bumbling Andy from Poughkeepsie here...

Edit: also, we aren't talking about starting a giant deal with dozens of steer and hundreds of chixkens. We are thinking like 2 steer and a few dozen cickens. Maybe some pigs. And also, not right away

 

[denverpilot]

One of my comments in PM was to get as much stuff done before moving in as possible if he goes for it. And adjust price accordingly. It could be a really nice spot but it's gonna take some $$$ and time to get it "right".

The disadvantage to negotiating it down on the sale price is you'll still need the cash to do the stuff after the sale. And I think the current owner is riding the wave of a boom cycle here to get more than it's worth.

The guy who owns 200 acres south of our subdivision has had his sale sign up for over a year. Maybe two. Booms bring out wishful thinkers.

I'd be brutal negotiating with that guy and be willing to walk. But I do like the location and with urban sprawl it's in a good spot as long as Nick is gainfully employed in either south Denver Metro or north Colorado Springs Metro. I just warned Nick to be a bit careful that Colorado loves our boom and bust cycles.

(Records show the current owner bought in 2003, at the end of the last boom, for a lot less money. Appreciation yes, but not that much...)

 

[docmirror]

Brutal negotiation and be patient both worked to my advantage. We found the ad for our little spot on CL and contacted the guy when he was asking $115k. We got it after 8 months for less than half of that. Plus, he had to redo the septic before he could xfer the land to anyone. At one point, he gave up on the sale, until his wife got upset and made him go back and do the work needed. Even though I got a good septic, every other part of the place needed work. I've gotten the pump and fresh water working right, now I'm starting on the electric. The guy literally had bare wires stuffed into a power strip, and he 'breaker' was the little push breaker on the power strip! Oh yeah...

 

[GrampaMark]

In all fairness, I am hardly an urban refugee here. I am a guy who does everything going himself already (car maintenance, home maintenance, etc). I also happen to have a wife that is a home maker. Between the two of us, we could easily throw 8 or more hours per day at upkeep.

I know it's fun to make fun of the damned city slickers, but you have to keep in mind that some people are cut out and some arent. Just because I grew up in a city (if you want to call Albuquerque a city) doesn't mean I'm bumbling Andy from Poughkeepsie here...

Edit: also, we aren't talking about starting a giant deal with dozens of steer and hundreds of chixkens. We are thinking like 2 steer and a few dozen cickens. Maybe some pigs. And also, not right away

Not making fun of you, Nick. My comments are based on decades of living in the outback.

Trust me. A few animals are 90% as much work as a bunch of animals. If your work places additional demands on your time, on occasion, your wife may tire of being the one who picks up the slack and lose some of her enthusiasm for the pioneer lifestyle. Getting up two hours early to clear the driveway gets old in a hurry. Getting calls from the neighbors at 11 PM when your cow/pig/horse is in their garden gets old. Calling the neighbors to get their critters out of your yard gets old. Fixing fences damaged by hunters gets old.

You might be one of the folks who makes the move from the city to the sticks and loves every minute of it. Good on ya if that's how it works out. I've just seen this movie too many times not to point out the numerous negatives that enthusiasm tries to push aside, even if it ****es you off.

Mark

 

[One Short]

One thing to consider is getting a mortgage. Most traditional home loans will only loan on the value of the house and ten acres. I've done two in house bank loans to cover all the land but the rates are a bit higher. There are some banks/mortgage lenders that do specialize in larger land/home loans.

 

[Ghery]

Good suggestions all, but along eith the water rights, strucutre, etc, check for bentonite...wonderful Colorado mineral that has caused damage to many homes.

Not limited to Colorado. We had to deal with it when putting in a lab outside Hollister, CA back in 1989. Nasty stuff, but if a foundation is built with it in mind it can be dealt with. Our house west of Littleton was so built back in 1979. I remember seeing in the news stories about houses that weren't built with it in mind and their foundations were severely cracked.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

40 plain acres, no trees, house in questionable condition. Sounds like a pass to me. Fourty acres is not much. Certainly not a large spread. Id save my money and wait for a better situation.

 

[steingar]

In all fairness, I am hardly an urban refugee here. I am a guy who does everything going himself already (car maintenance, home maintenance, etc). I also happen to have a wife that is a home maker. Between the two of us, we could easily throw 8 or more hours per day at upkeep.

I know it's fun to make fun of the damned city slickers, but you have to keep in mind that some people are cut out and some arent. Just because I grew up in a city (if you want to call Albuquerque a city) doesn't mean I'm bumbling Andy from Poughkeepsie here...

Edit: also, we aren't talking about starting a giant deal with dozens of steer and hundreds of chixkens. We are thinking like 2 steer and a few dozen cickens. Maybe some pigs. And also, not right away

Nick, no one was questioning your drive or ability. But I stand by my comments. This sounds like a butload of work, especially for someone with a day job. Also, once you live out in the styx you have to factor in your commute, which is going to eat up even more time. If your Mrs. winds up doing all the work she isn't going to like it, especially when she has to take care of two very rambunctious boys.

I've known people to do this kind of thing, but the houses were already in good shape and they didn't try and raise animals or work the land. One friend sold some hardwood trees on his property and used the cleared land for a one-way strip, flew a Chief out of it. Used the wood from the culling for a control tower. Another couple both have city jobs, but no kids and the horse facilities were already extant on the property.

I hope you get to realize your desired living situation, but I wouldn't take on such massive renovation projects with a job and spawn. YMMV.

 

[docmirror]

Also, once you live out in the styx

A lot of rivers get their start in CO, but I don't think any of them represent the barrier between earthly utopia and the underworld of hell, which is a few thousand miles east in Michigan. which really is hell on earth.

 

[SkyHog]

Nick, no one was questioning your drive or ability. But I stand by my comments. This sounds like a butload of work, especially for someone with a day job. Also, once you live out in the styx you have to factor in your commute, which is going to eat up even more time. If your Mrs. winds up doing all the work she isn't going to like it, especially when she has to take care of two very rambunctious boys.

Its 15 minutes closer to work...

I've known people to do this kind of thing, but the houses were already in good shape and they didn't try and raise animals or work the land. One friend sold some hardwood trees on his property and used the cleared land for a one-way strip, flew a Chief out of it. Used the wood from the culling for a control tower. Another couple both have city jobs, but no kids and the horse facilities were already extant on the property.

That is a possibility as well - we might just live there in peace and forget working the land or raising animals. But we might just try our hand at a few too. Haven't decided yet.

I hope you get to realize your desired living situation, but I wouldn't take on such massive renovation projects with a job and spawn. YMMV.

Yeah, that's the hardest part for me to decide on - is the work on the home too much to make it worthwhile.

Still have not yet decided.

 

[Corpsmaide]

Oil???

 

[SkyHog]

Oil???

Not likely at this elevation

 

[docmirror]

Not likely at this elevation

You don't have mineral rights anyway. Which brings up another good point. Make sure you have surface rights, and there are no surface intrusions to the mineral rights below. In some states this can be a real issue. If there are mineral rights severed from the surface, you will need to get a release waiver that prohibits the mineral rights owner from using the unused surface part of your land to access their minerals. All this is handled by the title company, but they often have vague, and undefined statements about the rights of the mineral holder. It's unwise to leave these vague statements in the title policy. Frex; The property described in the abstract may have mineral rights which have not been established and no provision for coverage extends to the mineral rights owner access. Or similar. Don't let that stay in the title. Know who owns it, and know what they plan to do with any rights.

 

[denverpilot]

Thought of something. That family ranch in the plot to the south is using either "your" road to get to it, or they have some kind of right of way permissions. I'd want to know more about how they'll be helping maintain the first 1/4 mile of it. Or if they even have to. Or if you do.