Busted Bravo..

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Here's the situation. Also, I should mention I've already filed an ASRS NASA on this just in case:

I was taking off from an airport under the 1200 base Bravo airspace. The field I was on couldn't clear me into the Bravo for my altitude requested (2000), but instead told me to maintain at or below 1100 feet.

I departed and stayed around 1100 until I got a frequency change allowed from tower and I then contacted approach. They were VERY busy at the time and though I requested Bravo clearance to get up to my original requested altitude of 2000, they did not approve it.

I continued southbound and eventually approach gave me climbing instructions: 2500 and maintain heading 150. The base of Bravo where I was at is 1200 MSL. I started a climb from 1100 and when I reached 1300 (in bravo) I realized my error. I immediately descended to 1200 and called approach back informing them I would need a Bravo clearance to proceed.

This time, they approved clearance into Bravo and I resumed my climb to 2500 and continued to my destination.

It was only 100 ft, and approach did not catch it, but I haven't had anything like this happen to me before, I'm usually VERY careful.
 
You have more problems than that. You were instructed to 'CLIMB to xxxx' and yet you descended 200 ft after ack that instruction.

which puts us in another difficult situation. Since you were out of the class D(I presume towered), you were no longer under positive control, and were in charge of your own navigation. Then, presuming again you were on FF, you were INSTRUCTED(while in uncontrolled) to climb. And - you started to but then changed your mind and went back down.

Can-o-worms.

Sorry, I don't know what to do now.
 
Nothing to worry about.
Controllers routinely say make your altitude X (into the bravo) and forget the "Cleared into the bravo" part.

I ask for clarification just to CYA but if the controller gives you an altitude in the Bravo you are not "busting" bravo by going to that altitude.

It is good to ask if you are cleared but nothing will come of this.
Don't stress about it.
 
If you had communication and they instructed you to climb into the Bravo, I'm gonna have to say you were given clearance into the Bravo. Although they didn't give you the magic words, by giving you instructions, which you must comply with, to enter the Bravo, the controller has taken positive control of your flight path and altitude and thus, a prima fascia clearance into the Bravo.

Let them pull the tapes and fight it.....go ahead and try.

And by you NOT flying those instructions, your error was actually in NOT following ATC instructions. A bigger bust than just not receiving a clearance at all.


I would assume you rarely if at all fly Bravo? For guys like 6PC, he just does what he wants to do becuase they see his tail number and assume its the Most Interesting Man in the World again, so HE actually issues ATC instructions and they comply!
 
For guys like 6PC, he just does what he wants to do becuase they see his tail number and assume its the Most Interesting Man in the World again, so HE actually issues ATC instructions and they comply!

I bring my own bravo ring with me wherever I go. Sometimes I let the controllers speak to me but they have to get clearance.
 
Did they say anything while you were still on the frequency? If not the probably didn't notice anything unusual.
 
I bring my own bravo ring with me wherever I go. Sometimes I let the controllers speak to me but they have to get clearance.

That's only to remain clear of the "useful load" in your grocery bag chonies!
 
I actually fly Bravo quite a lot, which is why this stupid situation is bothering me so much. My problem is the controller's original clearance to stay below Bravo and then his conflicting instructions to climb into it.

I was taught to listen for those magic words before proceeding, I tried to correct myself which was wrong. I should have just kept the climb and requested Bravo clearance at the same time. The time between those moments was literally, seconds. I found it on LiveATC.net. I got the climb instructions, immediately complied, busted (or in my mind busted), tried to fix it while requesting clearance, climbed again. Total time between all that was maybe 5-10 seconds.
 
Did they say anything while you were still on the frequency? If not the probably didn't notice anything unusual.

No, they didn't say anything, approach was VERY busy, even had to tell a few planes inbound to where I was going that unless they were full stop they would not be able to go there. Lots of IFR (practice approaches and airliners) and VFR traffic. Weather was VMC.

It's possible they just forgot or something, but I filed the ASRS anyway.
 
I can double that.....not only was I given instruction into the Bravo...but also one that included the SFRA with no filed flight plan.

....with no Cleared into Bravo or SFRA. :yikes::goofy:

evidently ATC can used their discretion to do what they want and even not say magic words.


Now, I was quite pleased with their accommodation....and very surprised. :yes:
 
Complete non-event. Don't worry about it. Now if you had mentioned that somebody had died, you would be right to be concerned. As it was you were only 100 feet in, following an ATC instruction, corrected it, got clarification and was not asked to phone anyone.
 
Complete non-event. Don't worry about it. Now if you had mentioned that somebody had died, you would be right to be concerned. As it was you were only 100 feet in, following an ATC instruction, corrected it, got clarification and was not asked to phone anyone.
I agree but it's still a situation to be careful of in the future.

This is not directly on point but suggestive of ATC's view: On Saturday I planned a flight that would ideally take me directly through Charlotte's Class B, right over the airport going east to west. I've learned the best way to get the clearance is to be VFR and to plan on 4500' over the airport.

I was cruising at 6500' and my desired FF path over CLT was apparently 'in the system and acceptable'. On first contact, CLT gave me a vector to GANTS and told me to expect a descent to 4500' (Bingo!).

I was still 5 to 10 miles outside the Class B but wanted to start my descent due to clouds. I requested a descent from 6500 to 4500 by saying, "5TG would like to start our descent down to 4500' now". The busy controller said, "you are VFR outside the Class B, descend as desired" or something to that effect. So I did it.

Within 2 or 3 miles of the Class B, I was geared up for a quick turn and ready to request Class B clearance when the controller came on, gave me the explicit clearance including altitude and a vector.

Seems to me that flying underneath the Class B and doing VFR FF is essentially the same situation. You can do whatever you want as long as you stay clear (critical if you are still talking to an underlying tower rather than approach).

Given a climb or vector that penetrates the Class B - I'm getting the clearance explicitly or remaining clear until I do. I agree that controller has implicitly cleared you for the climb into the B and that he/she is on the hook for it per the tapes. It's not always as clear with vectors given winds and such.

I say cross the T, dot the i and get the clearance before penetrating. But you are already convinced of that so....
 
Per NTSB and FAA ruling you do need a clearance for B, but it does not have to be the exact wording of "you're cleared into Bravo" verbatim. This is one of those flying school things that isn't entirely true. Any clearance into a point within Bravo airspace implies a B clearance, or any other clearance implying the same thing ("as requested" etc) or even a heading and an altitude (not just one, per NTSB ruling) taking you into B. Or if you cancel IFR within Bravo is another scenario where no other clearance is necessary. Or if you're taking off from an airport that's in class B.

Most of them will say the magic words, but if they don't and their clearance is unambiguous, has intent, and takes you into B, don't sweat it. You have a B clearance.
 
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Per NTSB and FAA ruling you do need a clearance for B, but it does not have to be the exact wording of "you're cleared into Bravo" verbatim.

This is my understanding as well. Which is why I pointed out that his mistake was not following the instruction to climb xxxx, as he then descended without clearance to do so. The controller wants him at xxxx at a reasonable ROC, and expects the air underneath and in front to be clear. Bad mojo if you go back down where you don't belong.
 
Per NTSB and FAA ruling you do need a clearance for B, but it does not have to be the exact wording of "you're cleared into Bravo" verbatim. This is one of those flying school things that isn't entirely true. Any clearance into a point within Bravo airspace implies a B clearance, or any other clearance implying the same thing ("as requested" etc) or even a heading and an altitude (not just one, per NTSB ruling) taking you into B. Or if you cancel IFR within Bravo is another scenario where no other clearance is necessary.
Makes sense. I'm flying on IFR clearances normally so I'm not that familiar with VFR clearances you might get. The altitude AND heading point is interesting. But I'm trying to think what other kind of clearance does a VFR flight normally get other than "cleared for class B"?

"Fly 230 degrees and maintain 4500" would be the normal type of clearance I assume.
 
this is a very minor situation and good for you on filing an ASRS, ATC would never send anything over on something like this as they are implicated . even if they did its on the lowest side of EDP ( Enforcement Decision Process ) matrix. Without a brasher warning from ATC and a present "confusing clearance " situation this would basically go in the garbage can.
 
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In my experience ATC, typically when very busy, sometimes forget the "magic words" and just clear you to descend, climb or otherwise continue into class B. As long as you repeat the clearance clearly and there is no doubt in your mind regarding what they want you to do, just do it. They obviously see you on radar and will issue any correction if necessary. What you should NOT do, as others have mentioned, is suddenly change your mind and disobey a clearance without an excellent reason (like about to crash into another aircraft). Even then, be sure to advise them of the change as soon as practical.
 
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No, they didn't say anything, approach was VERY busy, even had to tell a few planes inbound to where I was going that unless they were full stop they would not be able to go there. Lots of IFR (practice approaches and airliners) and VFR traffic. Weather was VMC.

It's possible they just forgot or something, but I filed the ASRS anyway.


If they didn't say anything, I'd wager 90% you're OK. You filed the NASA report, and unless you get a letter I'd just move on with life and sin no further.
 
Complete non-event. Don't worry about it. Now if you had mentioned that somebody had died, you would be right to be concerned. As it was you were only 100 feet in, following an ATC instruction, corrected it, got clarification and was not asked to phone anyone.

This.

And the reason to file the ASRS report is less for you and more to address exactly this kind of situation, to improve any future occurrences like this by alerting them to potential problems.
 
Your transponder only reports altitude in 100 foot increments, and you get an additional 100 foot buffer. So, you're fine. Nevertheless, an ASRS is useful because the confusion could result in several different kinds of problems.

As for controllers omitting B clearance, yes, they do that sometimes. Most recently, I got a traffic call westbound west of Sunol Golf course (VPSUN) at 3500 for two additional targets in the pass, opposite direction, slightly below my altitude and climbing. Recommended resolution was a 500 foot climb. The 4000 B floor is right at the edge of the pass. "Confirm cleared into Class B." "Cleared into Class B, climb and maintain 4100." A few minutes later, "Cleared for VFR descent." I was real happy about that 'cause it kept the traffic targets out of the way.
 
Per NTSB and FAA ruling you do need a clearance for B, but it does not have to be the exact wording of "you're cleared into Bravo" verbatim. This is one of those flying school things that isn't entirely true. Any clearance into a point within Bravo airspace implies a B clearance, or any other clearance implying the same thing ("as requested" etc) or even a heading and an altitude (not just one, per NTSB ruling) taking you into B. Or if you cancel IFR within Bravo is another scenario where no other clearance is necessary. Or if you're taking off from an airport that's in class B.

Most of them will say the magic words, but if they don't and their clearance is unambiguous, has intent, and takes you into B, don't sweat it. You have a B clearance.

Maybe. Maybe not. And no, I'm not suggesting sweating the event.

Here's the problem: inferring a VFR Class B clearance without hearing the magic words carries the risk of being wrong. Heading and altitude assignments that would bring you into the Class B do not automatically equal clearance, as discussed in the 2010 Dormire letter. Yep, the scenario there is a little different than this one but so what? Personally, I don't want my ticket risk based on small nuances in verbiage while I am busy flying an airplane. I want clarity.

Yeah, in this scenario, it's likely ATC intended a Class B clearance, but "likely" is a guess by us involving a bit of controller mind-reading. OTOH, why bet on a guess of what is "likely" when "certainty" is one very short communication away?

I've been cleared VFR (with magic words) into Class B and had another controller down the line ask me what the heck I was doing in his airspace; pretty comforting that the magic words are there on the tape in that kind of scenario and one doesn't have to get into a contest about what someone else intended.
 
Maybe. Maybe not. And no, I'm not suggesting sweating the event.

Here's the problem: inferring a VFR Class B clearance without hearing the magic words carries the risk of being wrong. Heading and altitude assignments that would bring you into the Class B do not automatically equal clearance, as discussed in the 2010 Dormire letter. Yep, the scenario there is a little different than this one but so what? Personally, I don't want my ticket risk based on small nuances in verbiage while I am busy flying an airplane. I want clarity.

Yeah, in this scenario, it's likely ATC intended a Class B clearance, but "likely" is a guess by us involving a bit of controller mind-reading. OTOH, why bet on a guess of what is "likely" when "certainty" is one very short communication away?

I've been cleared VFR (with magic words) into Class B and had another controller down the line ask me what the heck I was doing in his airspace; pretty comforting that the magic words are there on the tape in that kind of scenario and one doesn't have to get into a contest about what someone else intended.

Slightly off-topic but somewhat related. A couple of weeks ago my destination class D airport (on VFR FF, CAVU day) was just outside the outer limit of a VIP TFR (2 miles or so from the landing runway threshold). The destination ATIS was saying something like "all arriving aircraft must be on VFR or IFR flight plan." My direct route to the airport would miss the TFR, and my GPS tracking was pretty accurate. So I asked ATC (Approach Control for the TFR facility) if I needed to get an IFR clearance into my destination and if so would he please give me a popup. He replied "I'd be happy to give it to you, but if you are doing it because of the TFR, you really don't need to as long as you are on flight following." I told him what the ATIS was saying (VFR FF was *not* on their list of exemptions), and he repeated, "you are fine, take my word for it!". So with some trepidation, I thanked him and just kept on trucking, with my base leg slightly clipping the TFR. I figured if there is any question, that exchange would be recorded and save my behind. When talking to tower I asked them again, and they said something like, "as long as you are talking to us, you are fine."
So I guess the bottom line is make sure you read back all instructions/clearances and be extra sure you understand ATC when there is any doubt in your mind.
 
If the controller doesn't give you a number to call,you are usually OK. Most likely the controller was busy and forgot the cleared into bravo phrase when giving you climb and heading instructions.
 
I can double that.....not only was I given instruction into the Bravo...but also one that included the SFRA with no filed flight plan.

....with no Cleared into Bravo or SFRA. :yikes::goofy:

evidently ATC can used their discretion to do what they want and even not say magic words.


Now, I was quite pleased with their accommodation....and very surprised. :yes:


Potomac once told me(VFR, no plan, FF practicing approaches) to go direct from FDK to Easton which takes me through Bravo and SFRA and I couldn't get "Cleared through Bravo and SFRA" out of them for the life of me. I kept asking and he kept telling me to go direct. Eventually he said "Clear into bravo", but nothing about SFRA. Finally, the next frequency actually gave me a straight "Cleared into SFRA".
 
Potomac once told me(VFR, no plan, FF practicing approaches) to go direct from FDK to Easton which takes me through Bravo and SFRA and I couldn't get "Cleared through Bravo and SFRA" out of them for the life of me. I kept asking and he kept telling me to go direct. Eventually he said "Clear into bravo", but nothing about SFRA. Finally, the next frequency actually gave me a straight "Cleared into SFRA".
yup....FF on my way home, no flight plan, no IFR, no nutt'n....bout sums that up. :goofy:

I just got.....Bonanza turn 350, descend to 55 hundred.....and we have two waypoints for ya. Copied them and flew the route.....:yikes:

I did ask if he needed me IFR.....and he said dunworryboutit....we got this. :rofl:
 

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Slightly off-topic but somewhat related. A couple of weeks ago my destination class D airport (on VFR FF, CAVU day) was just outside the outer limit of a VIP TFR (2 miles or so from the landing runway threshold). The destination ATIS was saying something like "all arriving aircraft must be on VFR or IFR flight plan." My direct route to the airport would miss the TFR, and my GPS tracking was pretty accurate. So I asked ATC (Approach Control for the TFR facility) if I needed to get an IFR clearance into my destination and if so would he please give me a popup. He replied "I'd be happy to give it to you, but if you are doing it because of the TFR, you really don't need to as long as you are on flight following." I told him what the ATIS was saying (VFR FF was *not* on their list of exemptions), and he repeated, "you are fine, take my word for it!". So with some trepidation, I thanked him and just kept on trucking, with my base leg slightly clipping the TFR. I figured if there is any question, that exchange would be recorded and save my behind. When talking to tower I asked them again, and they said something like, "as long as you are talking to us, you are fine."
So I guess the bottom line is make sure you read back all instructions/clearances and be extra sure you understand ATC when there is any doubt in your mind.

One of the other controllers brought it up a few months back. For them, as long as you are "squawking and talking" they'll allow you to go thru the outer ring VFR. Are you suppose to be on a flight plan as well? Yep. Is an approach controller gonna call FSS for each guy penetrating the outer ring to see if they filed? Heck no.
 
On a few occasions a swamped Bravo controller has given me a clearance that routed me through their Bravo without providing explicit Bravo clearance. Without really thinking about it the first time, I added the explicit Bravo clearance into the readback....Tiger NXXXX cleared through the Bravo direct KXXX at 4500 ft. I had already gotten a squawk code and radar contact.

That has become my standard readback practice in these situations. In one case the controller followed up with a "Cleared into the Bravo". In the others there was no further communication until the next handoff. It makes the implicit explicit, and it gives the controller a chance to correct me if my understanding is incorrect.
 
Thanks guys. I do fly through the Bravo I had mentioned quite often. I have nearly always gotten the magic phrase from this approach control anytime I'm going through it without soliciting it.

I had one occasion where I was taking off from an airport nearby (under a charlie airspace), the tower put me on a vector to intercept Bravo, which brushes right up against the charlie. I contacted approach almost immediately after tower switched me off and since I was so close I asked for Bravo clearance on my initial check-in. The controller came back and told me, let's get you ID'd on the radar first and followed that up with cleared into bravo.

I do hope it's a non-event, but I can see this as a perfect situation for someone on their checkride to get busted because they inferred instead of confirmed. I think in my case the communication breakdown was on both ends, the controller being busy (and they were, definitely) and forgetting the "magic words" and me not cross-checking before complying. A simple "unable" might have been in my best interest here.
 
I'm also based under a Class B shelf. I'd estimate almost half the times I'm given a vector that will take me into the Bravo while VFR, I have to ask "am I cleared into Bravo?". I am always told, "yes you're cleared into the Bravo". Not once have I been told "No, you're not, remain clear of Bravo". That would be kind of ridiculous seeing that I was just given a vector INTO the Bravo. My conclusion is that controllers just forget to say it sometimes.

You could argue that if you're given a vector into the Bravo that there is an implicit clearance into Bravo but just to be safe ask for it anyway.
 
On a few occasions a swamped Bravo controller has given me a clearance that routed me through their Bravo without providing explicit Bravo clearance. Without really thinking about it the first time, I added the explicit Bravo clearance into the readback....Tiger NXXXX cleared through the Bravo direct KXXX at 4500 ft. I had already gotten a squawk code and radar contact.

That has become my standard readback practice in these situations. In one case the controller followed up with a "Cleared into the Bravo". In the others there was no further communication until the next handoff. It makes the implicit explicit, and it gives the controller a chance to correct me if my understanding is incorrect.
That is my SOP also.
 
That is my SOP also.

I've gotten in the habit of asking for clarification.

Crossing SFO B at 3500, it's not that unusual to get crossing restrictions several minutes before clearance. For instance:

"Cessna 123XY remain south and west of 101 maintain 3500"
"Confirm cleared into Class B"
"Not yet. The next controller will clear you."

Sometimes I do get clearance at that time, but the restriction is usually some 5 miles from the Class B surface area boundary. That "south and west of 101" thing is nearly universal when crossing that B.
 
Without really thinking about it the first time, I added the explicit Bravo clearance into the readback....

That is a great idea! I'm going to borrow that one. Anything that leads to less talking (congestion) on the radio is good.
 
Per NTSB and FAA ruling you do need a clearance for B, but it does not have to be the exact wording of "you're cleared into Bravo" verbatim. This is one of those flying school things that isn't entirely true. Any clearance into a point within Bravo airspace implies a B clearance, or any other clearance implying the same thing ("as requested" etc) or even a heading and an altitude (not just one, per NTSB ruling) taking you into B. Or if you cancel IFR within Bravo is another scenario where no other clearance is necessary. Or if you're taking off from an airport that's in class B.

Most of them will say the magic words, but if they don't and their clearance is unambiguous, has intent, and takes you into B, don't sweat it. You have a B clearance.

Do you have links to the NTSB and FAA ruling's?
 
100' nothing to sweat about. The sweep of the radar takes around 3-5 seconds so more than likely the controller didn't even notice the altitude (IOW altitude readouts lag a bit), especially if he/she was busy. Going back down a couple hundred feet, IMO, nothing to worry about either, and probably not noticed. Filing the report a good move though.

As a general rule I'd insist on the specific clearance (91.131). If you're radar identified and the controller issues you a clearance (altitude,heading,on course etc) then that also would suffice. Myself, I'd ask for the magic words to CYA.
 
100' nothing to sweat about. The sweep of the radar takes around 3-5 seconds so more than likely the controller didn't even notice the altitude (IOW altitude readouts lag a bit), especially if he/she was busy. Going back down a couple hundred feet, IMO, nothing to worry about either, and probably not noticed. Filing the report a good move though.

As a general rule I'd insist on the specific clearance (91.131). If you're radar identified and the controller issues you a clearance (altitude,heading,on course etc) then that also would suffice. Myself, I'd ask for the magic words to CYA.


While I agree that 100' is unlikely to risk any tickets, the 3-5 seconds figure isn't accurate anymore. It depends on where you are. The FAA is moving to a unified radar system, so the single blip is updated by any radar in the area. At long distance, that may be just one radar and the sweep be very long. In close, like near my home in the Bay Area, typical update is closer to 1 second, since there are so many radar feeding the system.

So, yeah, the sweep time hasn't changed, but the update times have gotten much smaller in most areas near Bravo.
 
Per NTSB and FAA ruling you do need a clearance for B, but it does not have to be the exact wording of "you're cleared into Bravo" verbatim. This is one of those flying school things that isn't entirely true. Any clearance into a point within Bravo airspace implies a B clearance, or any other clearance implying the same thing ("as requested" etc) or even a heading and an altitude (not just one, per NTSB ruling) taking you into B. Or if you cancel IFR within Bravo is another scenario where no other clearance is necessary. Or if you're taking off from an airport that's in class B.

Most of them will say the magic words, but if they don't and their clearance is unambiguous, has intent, and takes you into B, don't sweat it. You have a B clearance.

I'm not sure what you've read and you haven't cited your source document, but your response is misleading to the OP at best.

We're talking VFR here. You don't get many clearances operating VFR. A vector or an altitude assignment is not a clearance. "Proceed as requested" is not a clearance. What you say is true under IFR. Under IFR, once the controls says "cleared to the XYZ airport..." You're on a clearance. At that point, you no longer need to hear any addition clearances to enter any airspace.

Under VFR, you need to hear "cleared into class bravo..." Or you're nor legal to enter. You may need to remind the controller, but either way you need the clearance.
 
I can double that.....not only was I given instruction into the Bravo...but also one that included the SFRA with no filed flight plan.

....with no Cleared into Bravo or SFRA. :yikes::goofy:

evidently ATC can used their discretion to do what they want and even not say magic words.


Now, I was quite pleased with their accommodation....and very surprised. :yes:

The situation you experienced a few months back was an anomaly, not indicative of what controllers are permitted to do per the 7110.65. They don't have the discretion; it's just that when center was down and flight plans went missing nobody could tell who was on what as far as flight plans go.
 
Sheesh... You guys are a bit paranoid. Controller issues clearance that takes you through bravo. It's a CLEARANCE. follow your clearance and there will be no issues.
 
Sheesh... You guys are a bit paranoid. Controller issues clearance that takes you through bravo. It's a CLEARANCE. follow your clearance and there will be no issues.

But we would miss all the fun then!!! That is one of the mostest favoritest things to talk about around here, namely the fact that "you have to hear the magic words!!!!" "Cleared into Bravo!!!!" :goofy:
 
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