Yet another "is it legal" question :)

[genna]

Actually, it's more of the medical legality scenarios.

What is legal and can be logged(and how) in these 3 scenarios?

Pilot 1: PPL/IR(current), no medical

Pilot 2:
1. PPL, current medical
2. PPL/IR(current), current medical
3. CFI/IR(current), current medical

As far as I understand, in all cases, Pilot 1 can log flight time and hood time in VFR only and no PIC time.

In cases 2, 3 an IFR flight plan can be filed under Pilot 2. No PIC for Pilot 1. "Actual" can be logged by Pilot 1. There is no practical difference for Pilot 1 between the two cases.

Am I correct?

 

[JeffDG]

So, I presume Pilot 1 is flying the plane, right? And I presume that Pilot 1 is rated (category/class) for the aircraft flown.

If so:
All cases, Pilot 2 must agree to act as PIC

#1: Pilot 1 logs PIC as "sole-manipulator", must be VFR. If Pilot 1 is hooded, Pilot 2 can log PIC (in addition to Pilot 1) for the time hooded
#2: Same as #1, but can file and accept an IFR clearance if necessary
#3: Pilot 1 and Pilot 2 can both log PIC for the entire flight. Pilot 1 can also log "Dual" time, and Pilot 2 can log "Instruction given"

 

[genna]

So, I presume Pilot 1 is flying the plane, right? And I presume that Pilot 1 is rated (category/class) for the aircraft flown.

If so:
All cases, Pilot 2 must agree to act as PIC

#1: Pilot 1 logs PIC as "sole-manipulator", must be VFR. If Pilot 1 is hooded, Pilot 2 can log PIC (in addition to Pilot 1) for the time hooded
#2: Same as #1, but can file and accept an IFR clearance if necessary
#3: Pilot 1 and Pilot 2 can both log PIC for the entire flight. Pilot 1 can also log "Dual" time, and Pilot 2 can log "Instruction given"

Yes, P1 flying and is rated

Right, that's the normal operation. Am I to take from this that lack of medical for Pilot 1 does not matter?

 

[JeffDG]

Yes, P1 flying and is rated

Right, that's the normal operation. Am I to take from this that lack of medical for Pilot 1 does not matter?

It does matter for who can "act" as PIC, but not who can log PIC.

If someone is rated in cat/class, has a PPL, and is the sole manipulator of the controls, they may log PIC, regardless of whether they are legally acting as PIC.

 

[genna]

It does matter for who can "act" as PIC, but not who can log PIC.

If someone is rated in cat/class, has a PPL, and is the sole manipulator of the controls, they may log PIC, regardless of whether they are legally acting as PIC.

Alright, so P1's only limitation is that he cannot fly as solo pilot(obviously) and cannot file/accept IFR under his ticket. Other than that it's business as usual. Does that sum it up? I guess if this ever comes into some question, the log book will have to be explained

 

[luvflyin]

I concur. I was down for a few months last winter and researched the hell out of it. Pilot 2 is the acting PIC but pilot 1 can log PIC time for the time he his sole manipulator of the controls.

 

[Mason]

Pilot 1 can fly and log all the VFR time he wants in an LSA under light sport rules. And gliders if he is rated.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Actually, it's more of the medical legality scenarios.

What is legal and can be logged(and how) in these 3 scenarios?

Pilot 1: PPL/IR(current), no medical

Pilot 2:
1. PPL, current medical
2. PPL/IR(current), current medical
3. CFI/IR(current), current medical

As far as I understand, in all cases, Pilot 1 can log flight time and hood time in VFR only and no PIC time.

In cases 2, 3 an IFR flight plan can be filed under Pilot 2. No PIC for Pilot 1. "Actual" can be logged by Pilot 1. There is no practical difference for Pilot 1 between the two cases.

Am I correct?

Might have to reword for my feeble mind. I see two pilots and no scenarios.

 

[SbestCFII]

Pilot 1 may log PIC time as the sole manipulator of the controls
Pilot 2 must log PIC time as the legal PIC, since Pilot 1 is not legal to fly solo

 

[EdFred]

Pilot 1 may log PIC time as the sole manipulator of the controls
Pilot 2 must log PIC time as the legal PIC, since Pilot 1 is not legal to fly solo

Pilot 2 may log time. There's is no requirement that he must log it.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Pilot 2 may log time. There's is no requirement that he must log it.

Agreed. I have been a safety pilot but I didn't actually do enough to consider logging it. I suppose it may have been different if I actually needed hours for something and I felt the hours didn't affect my competence for whatever I was building hours toward.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Pilot 1 may log PIC time as the sole manipulator of the controls
Pilot 2 must log PIC time as the legal PIC, since Pilot 1 is not legal to fly solo

Can you point to the reg, formal interpretation, FAA guidance, or NTSB case that requires any logging other than that needed to show the logger's own qualification or currency?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Agreed. I have been a safety pilot but I didn't actually do enough to consider logging it. I suppose it may have been different if I actually needed hours for something and I felt the hours didn't affect my competence for whatever I was building hours toward.

Not sure I understand the second part of that. How would writing something down after a flight while sitting down with a beer affect your competence?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Not sure I understand the second part of that. How would writing something down after a flight while sitting down with a beer affect your competence?

I will log my flights if I am manipulating the controls, or doing something I consider worthwhile to log ( our opinions of "worthwhile" will probably differ). In the case of the safety pilot flights, I was little more than a passenger that looked for traffic. The person flying was so competent that I only learned a bit about IFR.

To answer your question, if I was building hours towards an airline job, and I was already competent to apply for the job, I would have logged the safety pilot time. I'm not convinced that there is a lot of difference in ability at 500 or 1000 hours, but that is probably another discussion. If I were at the very beginning of building time, sitting essentially as a passenger looking for traffic wouldn't improve my ability to fly as much as actually flying and so I probably wouldn't log it then.

I probably made it clear as mud.

 

[JeffDG]

Pilot 1 may log PIC time as the sole manipulator of the controls
Pilot 2 must log PIC time as the legal PIC, since Pilot 1 is not legal to fly solo

If pilot 1 is not under the hood, pilot 2 logs nothing.

 

[poadeleted20]

Pilot 1 can fly and log all the VFR time he wants in an LSA under light sport rules. And gliders if he is rated.

That is not a given -- it depends on why Pilot 1 doesn't have a medical. There are conditions (say, cancer involving current chemotherapy) which one could have which don't allow one to fly anything safely (even an LSA or glider). See 14 CFR 61.53 for the rule on point.

 

[poadeleted20]

Pilot 1 may log PIC time as the sole manipulator of the controls
Pilot 2 must log PIC time as the legal PIC, since Pilot 1 is not legal to fly solo

First, there is no requirement for Pilot 2 to log the time even if Pilot 1 isn't qualified to act as PIC. Second, the fact that Pilot 1 is "not legal to fly solo" is not in and of itself sufficient to allow Pilot 2 to log the time -- if Pilot 1 were not hooded, Pilot 2 could not log the time while Pilot 1 is flying since Pilot 1 is rated in the aircraft. See the 1977 Beane letter for details.

Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft.

Note that "rated" means only having the necessary category, class, and (if applicable) type ratings, and does not include having a valid medical. Since Pilot 1 is rated, then unless Pilot 1 is hooded (thus requiring the presence of a second pilot) or Pilot 2 is an authorized instructor giving training to Pilot 1, Pilot 2 cannot log PIC time since Pilot 2 does not qualify to log PIC time under any subparagraph of 14 CFR 61.51(e).

 

[poadeleted20]

Right, that's the normal operation. Am I to take from this that lack of medical for Pilot 1 does not matter?

It matters, in that it makes necessary the presence of Pilot 2 and Pilot 2's acceptance of PIC duty for the flight to be legal. However, it doesn't change anything about how Pilot 1 logs the flight, which is going to be logged as PIC time under 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i) as sole manipulator regardless of whether Pilot 1 has a valid medical or not.

 

[genna]

So, to recap:
1. Pilot 1 medical status has no influence on the logbook in any way. PIC, Safety Pilot, simulated or actual instrument all get logged as they normally would be.
2. The limitation on the Pilot 1 is that he cannot be the only pilot capable of operating the plane. i.e. Pilot 2 has to be on board and properly rated for the operation(IR if IFR). This makes the flight legal from the medical certificate point of view.

 

[Brad Z]

So, to recap:
1. Pilot 1 medical status has no influence on the logbook in any way. PIC, Safety Pilot, simulated or actual instrument all get logged as they normally would be.
2. The limitation on the Pilot 1 is that he cannot be the only pilot capable of operating the plane. i.e. Pilot 2 has to be on board and properly rated for the operation(IR if IFR). This makes the flight legal from the medical certificate point of view.

The flight must have one, and only one, Pilot in Command (PIC). That's true from a J-3 Cub to a 747-8. (14 CFR 1).

Generally speaking, "Pilot-in-command flight time" is a type of flight time that a pilot can log when certain conditions in 14 CFR 61.51(e) are met.

By default, if two rated and current pilots are in the cockpit, and one of them doesn't have a medical (which is required to act as PIC), then by default, the other pilot is PIC.

The pilot who is sole manipulator of the controls may log P-I-C Time, regardless of whether they're acting as PIC (provided he holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating). The acting PIC may log P-I-C time only if he is a required crewmember (such as safety pilot) or authorized instructor.

Note the hyphen in the difference between PIC and P-I-C.

 

[poadeleted20]

So, to recap:
1. Pilot 1 medical status has no influence on the logbook in any way. PIC, Safety Pilot, simulated or actual instrument all get logged as they normally would be.

Yes.

2. The limitation on the Pilot 1 is that he cannot be the only pilot capable of operating the plane. i.e. Pilot 2 has to be on board and properly rated for the operation(IR if IFR). This makes the flight legal from the medical certificate point of view.

Not just properly rated -- fully qualified to act as PIC with a passenger in the operation being conducted. Beyond being rated, that includes medical, flight review, instrument currency for IFR, landing currency (unless Pilot 2 is an instructor giving Pilot 2 training with nobody else aboard), applicable 61.31 additional training endorsements, and anything else I left out inadvertently.

And that's just the FAA issues -- the aircraft owner (if not Pilot 1) and/or insurer might have some other things to say about it, too.

 

[genna]

.

Not just properly rated -- fully qualified to act as PIC with a passenger in the operation being conducted. Beyond being rated, that includes medical, flight review, instrument currency for IFR, landing currency (unless Pilot 2 is an instructor giving Pilot 2 training with nobody else aboard), applicable 61.31 additional training endorsements, and anything else I left out inadvertently.

That was understood by me, but "left out inadvertently". Thanks

 

[midlifeflyer]

I will log my flights if I am manipulating the controls, or doing something I consider worthwhile to log ( our opinions of "worthwhile" will probably differ). In the case of the safety pilot flights, I was little more than a passenger that looked for traffic. The person flying was so competent that I only learned a bit about IFR.

To answer your question, if I was building hours towards an airline job, and I was already competent to apply for the job, I would have logged the safety pilot time. I'm not convinced that there is a lot of difference in ability at 500 or 1000 hours, but that is probably another discussion. If I were at the very beginning of building time, sitting essentially as a passenger looking for traffic wouldn't improve my ability to fly as much as actually flying and so I probably wouldn't log it then.

I probably made it clear as mud.

I think we may be using different definitions of "competence." I'm using the one that is more or less synonymous with "good level of ability". You see to be using one that is more or less synonymous with "meeting qualification."

The difference: one who has not flown at night for 20 years but manages to get 3 stop and goes last night meets the "qualifications" to take the wife and kiddies fir a nigh xc. I wouldn't say he had a "good level of ability".

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I think we may be using different definitions of "competence." I'm using the one that is more or less synonymous with "good level of ability". You see to be using one that is more or less synonymous with "meeting qualification."

The difference: one who has not flown at night for 20 years but manages to get 3 stop and goes last night meets the "qualifications" to take the wife and kiddies fir a nigh xc. I wouldn't say he had a "good level of ability".

I believe you are correct. in your assessment. Just flying as a safety pilot doesn't greatly improve my ability though. It may help meet a goal of 500 hours (or whatever it is) to get a SIC rating though.

I will note that I don't take passengers flying (or, for that matter, do other flying activities) unless I meet a good level of ability as you describe. I haven't flown during night in so long that I won't do so without an instructor, though I am, in theory, "qualified" to do so by myself.