Both my japs cars are built in the US. I have some german built cars, both by people I grew up with.
Jetta TDI
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Both my japs cars are built in the US. I have some german built cars, both by people I grew up with.
The real issue with diesels is the EPA. Emissions regs choke the efficiency of diesels, somewhat ironically. My 2004 Cummins was about the last worth buying until they figure out how to do both.
To Spike's point, I've not found issues with assembly on Mexican vehicles. My Dodge was Mexican, as is Laurie's Avalanche. These days what you really find as problems boil down to engineering/design or misuse. For example, sludge is often because a sub-optimal oil is used. My BMW runs hot by design and needs a full synthetic oil to prevent sludge. It also runs long oil change intervals - I reset the light about 10k miles ago and it still said I had oil life left, but I had changed the oil once in between because I dropped the pan when I did the timing chains.
So, the power of German engineering is your culprit.
My 97 Dodge 2500 Cummins was a Mexico City truck as well, one of the best built vehicles I've had. The fuel gauge failed at 36,000 miles, and after 250,000 miles, it was still the only thing that failed except the headliner glue.
bnt83
Final Approach
They don't live in the city and very little stop & go driving so yeah they get basically the same mileage.
Higher maintenance costs? Ever owned a diesel? Change the oil and all the filters. 1989 doge cummins finally needed a pump last year. It's an automatic too btw. In the 15 years he's had the cummins auto it has never had transmission issues.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
A co-worker has one. He had the regen brakes completely fail recently and amazingly didn't hit anything. Chevy replaced the entire braking computer.
The better deal from Chevy is the Cruze in diesel.
That is if they could figure out how to build a transmission that doesn't slam shift hunting for a gear at 25 MPH with uncommanded and unexpected downshifts that all king term reviewers are reporting in all Cruze models.
Personally it's starting to look like the long term test drives in the first year of the new Dodge 1500 diesel are going well enough, that will be the next daily driver.
25-27 MPG in real world driving on the highway is looking pretty solid and not a fairy tale. That's great for a truck.
Well, I just inherited a 96 Passat and it's still fine, although it only has 34,000 miles on it.
Everskyward
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I just rented a Jetta but I only got to drive it a mile or two to the hotel. Too short a distance to make any judgment. Then the other pilot took it to see his relatives so I am on foot.Well, I just inherited a 96 Passat and it's still fine, although it only has 34,000 miles on it.
ggroves
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You read the part where I said I had one, right? I sold it, and replaced it with a '13 Touareg TDI. It wasn't to save $$, because there are better, cheaper choices. It was because I like the torque and German driving "feel".
Yes, higher maintenance costs. Low SAPS oil is $10 a liter. The DSG "automatic" needs fluid changes every 40K, that's $300-$400 to have a dealer to perform, unless you can do it yourself. Also, do a search on VW HPFP failures, induction/inter cooler icing, DSG mechatronics issues, cracked DPFs.
I like how they drive, but I would never own one (VW) outside of a warranty...ever. They are not a fill with fuel, turn the key, and change the oil once a year type of car. The days of the 300K miles VW diesel are past.
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Alexb2000
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In fairness a Cummins 12 valve, mechanical pump, non-intercooled, zero emissions, 160 HP @ 5.9L is a WORLD away from the complexity and expense of a modern diesel.
It would more closely compare to the technology in the old rabbit diesels that were 60 HP.
I deal with Caterpillars, MTUs, Cummins, MANs, Detroits... and have for decades. I don't know what the auto people are doing wrong with HPCR EFI systems, but holy crap it made a major difference in not only in power/weight/CI available, but the smoke virtually disappeared. With the Steinbauer boxes I can tune the engine perfectly to maximize whatever property I want.
Alexb2000
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How much Tier IV stuff are you dealing with? Not popular with the heavy duty road users, that's why they are building gliders out of new Class 8 trucks.
TEFLONSEAN
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Pretty sure marine diesels don't have to worry about EGR, DPF, Regen cycles.
Common rail has nothing to do with it...as it has been used for many years.
EPA requirements on marine stuff...im not familar with.
But auto people aren't doing anything wrong.....it's the mindless systems the EPA is requiring that is the kicker and the manufactuers trying to keep pace.
Silvaire
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About a year and a half ago I was in the same predicament except my daily commute is 116 miles r/t. I was looking at the TDI's and did a lot of research on them. I discovered that there are certain years to be avoided because the oil pump shafts shear and certain others to avoid because the camshafts lunch themselves. I ended up buying a 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S for $2000. I put a new timing belt on it and have driven it daily since, putting about 600 miles per week on it with no problems. Granted it only gets about 25 mpg but OMG it is such a blast and the sound from that Alfa V6 has got to be one of the most divine things on Earth.
I'll admit that I am prone to having very good vehicular Karma so this probably wouldn't work for everyone but for me - it works
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TEFLONSEAN
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About a year and a half ago I was in the same predicament except my daily commute is 116 miles r/t. I was looking at the TDI's and did a lot of research on them. I discovered that there are certain years to be avoided because the oil pump shafts shear and certain others to avoid because the camshafts lunch themselves. I ended up buying a 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S for $2000. I put a new timing belt on it and have driven it daily since, putting about 600 miles per week on it with no problems. Granted it only gets about 25 mpg but OMG it is such a blast and the sound from that Alfa V6 has got to be one of the most divine things on Earth.
I'll admit that I am prone to having very good vehicular Karma so this probably wouldn't work for everyone but for me - it works
Yeah that could be one of the ugliest cars I have ever seen. Looks like an overpriced Mitsubishi Gallant.
Sound from an Alfa six...made me laugh.
Sounds like your happy....kudos
JHW
En-Route
My VW diesel has needed some work. A fuel injection pump at ~250K ($550 reman exchange), oil pump relief valve at ~300k ($15 from O'reilley's) and now a little over 400k it's using quite a bit of oil. Looks like this POS is going to need a ring job before half a million miles.
Attachments
Marine emissions are getting tougher and tougher every year. Most big ships are either being replaced or re-powered with natural gas / dual fuel engines because you can't hardly burn HFO or MFO anymore, especially near a port. Any ship that comes into California has some really strict regs to meet, can't even burn high sulphur Diesel anymore.
Ted
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You have a realistic view. I, too, don't own good cars. I own cars I like. They are old, not very reliable, and don't get great mileage. But I really like driving them. Since I do my own work, they're not too expensive, either.
Alexb2000
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One other thing to keep in mind, mechanics love retail work, love it. If a job has a retail book time of 5 hours, warranty might pay 2 or 2.5. Kind of like what health insurance pays vs. someone off the street coming in to the doctor. Most of us would never consider being without health insurance because of this cost difference, something to consider.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
My VW diesel has needed some work. A fuel injection pump at ~250K ($550 reman exchange), oil pump relief valve at ~300k ($15 from O'reilley's) and now a little over 400k it's using quite a bit of oil. Looks like this POS is going to need a ring job before half a million miles.
Good ole American know-how. More than likely, that truck was built in PA USA. It may have been built in Sarajevo, but given the badging, I predict it came from PA.
http://www.mpgomatic.com/45_MPG_Pickup_Truck.html
Alexb2000
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My shop building neighbor restores these and works exclusively on VW diesels for a living. I have helped him work on countless versions of VW diesels. They do get good mileage (we've never seen one get close to 45), but why wouldn't they? You have a 60HP 1.6L pre-emisssions diesel engine pushing a light front wheel drive unibody chassis. They are just not made for modern driving though. 70 is almost flat out and you will be turning about 2900 RPM. Turn on the air (if you have one of the very few that have it working). Go up a hill, 70 is not happening. The later 1.9L mechanical pump motors were a big improvement 90HP and a good swap if you are a masochist. Also the ergonomics are not friendly to tall 6'+ drivers. All that said, a local use, light load truck, that is stone simple and gets good mileage, there you go.
JHW
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Mine gets 52mpg consistently. You need a 5sp to get over 50. I have had it on a chassis dyno, for fun since we have one. 47 hp to the ground.
Alexb2000
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Both the 5 speed and the 4 speed have the about same final drive ratio. The 5 speed seems to help with hills being closer ratio.
http://www.scirocco.org/gears/
I don't doubt at 50 you are seeing some really good numbers.
JHW
En-Route
Not in this vintage. 5th gear is significantly taller. Spacing is unchanged. The 5th gear is added to the 4 spd trans. Parts of it are not well splash lubed since it was an afterthought.
Alexb2000
En-Route
Holy crap....
What do older ship do, shut of the motors and have the harbor tug pull them in from 3 miles out???
I was about to say, I always got 52 mpg out of mine, and if you put tall tires under it it will do 90 no sweat. Unless you are heavy up a hill, you hit the governor, not the rack, at least I did. The Isuzu/Chevy Luv with the Diesel got 52mpg as well, and the Isuzu Deisel powered Chevy Chevette got 62-65 and would blow away gas powered Chevettes at the drag strip. (Yes, I took a Deisel Chevette down the quarter mile.
It made a decent showing though in the low 17s. That car surprised a lot of people.) Heck, my 72 Datsun 1200 and 1976 Civic 1200 got 50mpg and I brutalized the the floorboard with the throttle doing 80 down the highway with no over drive and 12" wheels.
Holy crap....
What do older ship do, shut of the motors and have the harbor tug pull them in from 3 miles out???
They don't exist, but they switch to low sulphur Diesel. There is such a glut of brand new ultra high cube container ships and tankers. These ships are built with a ten year finance life, and at that point you need to refinance to refit the shp with new gear and replace wasted metal. The next 15 years are the sweet spot for actually making money with the ship because the refit was still 30% the cost of a new build so you only are in debt for 5 of those 15 years. These rules were all known over a decade ago and were enacted to coordinate with a construction/refit cycle. Many recent first period remits are adapting to LNG, it's pretty easy. Most all the ships that were effected were in their end of its economic life cycle anyway in the 15-25 year range. 25 year survey is a *****, and unless you replaced significant bottom steel at the 10, you typically are looking at replacing at least 3/4 of the bottom framing and plate. When you work in all the rest of the refit and overhaul issues, it's barely worth it, except one situation; get a foreign built specialty vessel licensed for Jones Act trade.
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W. Stewart
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(Cross post from another thread, but I really want help with this DPF thing! The light is on and we need to do something.)
We have owned a 2010 Jetta TDI since we bought it new. I like the way the car drives, and I like the fuel mileage. But MY GOD--now, at 98,000 miles, we have had two EXPENSIVE charges . . . for "maintenance items". We replaced the timing belt recently, and that was $1,200. Now the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) light is on, so my son took it to the dealer and was told that TO SERVICE THAT WOULD BE $3,200 !!!!
Looking into this on the internet, it looks like, with other manufacturers (certainly heavy trucks), cleaning a DPF is a routine matter and easily done. With VW, however, one cannot even get to the DPF easily. I think it involves lifting the engine. He was told that several components of the exhaust system would have to be replaced. My reading on the internet suggests that others might have tried to clean or replace the DPF themselves, but a chip in the car's computer needs to be reset or replaced and that is causing some problems.
I would welcome suggestions for this. (We have not yet done the DPF thing). I bought a diesel for the "economy" of the thing! I am quite sure that this will be the last VW tha I ever own.
Wells
We have owned a 2010 Jetta TDI since we bought it new. I like the way the car drives, and I like the fuel mileage. But MY GOD--now, at 98,000 miles, we have had two EXPENSIVE charges . . . for "maintenance items". We replaced the timing belt recently, and that was $1,200. Now the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) light is on, so my son took it to the dealer and was told that TO SERVICE THAT WOULD BE $3,200 !!!!
Looking into this on the internet, it looks like, with other manufacturers (certainly heavy trucks), cleaning a DPF is a routine matter and easily done. With VW, however, one cannot even get to the DPF easily. I think it involves lifting the engine. He was told that several components of the exhaust system would have to be replaced. My reading on the internet suggests that others might have tried to clean or replace the DPF themselves, but a chip in the car's computer needs to be reset or replaced and that is causing some problems.
I would welcome suggestions for this. (We have not yet done the DPF thing). I bought a diesel for the "economy" of the thing! I am quite sure that this will be the last VW tha I ever own.
Wells
poadeleted21
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Shameless plug for my new website but there are folks there who might help
http://tdi.world
Warning, it's a lot rougher around the edges than these parts and has an interesting culture that takes a little getting used to.
VW vortex might be of more help.
MAKG1
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1200 smackers for a timing belt? That's not the car's fault. You're being ripped off by a dealer who thinks you have more money than brains.
It's a PITA on many small FWD cars, but it's not a two day job on a Jetta. Not even close.
It's a PITA on many small FWD cars, but it's not a two day job on a Jetta. Not even close.
Sac Arrow
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Snorting his way across the USA
Exactly, you're looking at the same thing at a Honda dealership. There are lots of independent shops that will do the job for half to a third of the dealer price.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
First question - what oil have you been using? Does it meet the VW/Audi 507.00 oil spec?
Next question - get the build date of your car. The exhaust cat and DPF changed in mid-2009. The later(as I recall) system has two separate modules, one is the cat, the other is the DPF. Need to know which you have.
Final question - Have you contacted these guys? http://www.fsxinc.com/Clean/home.html I've heard one good and one bad story about them, and I do not endorse them, but it's a way to go.
Pulled out my cooling fans. There was no way to remove the unit without removing an intercooler tube.....
Now I call for the parts with the removed parts in hand. Turns out VW installed the cooling fans for the gasoline engine (higher wattage) in my car.... This is not the first time this has happened, anytime parts get ordered based on the VIN, they don't fit. That year was the mad production rush to build as many TDIs before the hammer with the diesel particulates fell, as a result some of the cars are random collections of parts.
Now I call for the parts with the removed parts in hand. Turns out VW installed the cooling fans for the gasoline engine (higher wattage) in my car.... This is not the first time this has happened, anytime parts get ordered based on the VIN, they don't fit. That year was the mad production rush to build as many TDIs before the hammer with the diesel particulates fell, as a result some of the cars are random collections of parts.
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ggroves
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Unfortunately, it depends on whether the DPF is full, or is cracked. A bad EGR will soot up a DPF, left unfixed. However, if you haven't had any EGR problems, it is highly unlikely that its full. It might be cracked. Cracked = unserviceable.
The DPFs used in the 2.0 CR VW motors isn't designed to be cleaned, like the larger truck DPFs are. Cleaning these is somewhat new territory in the US, and there are only a few shops that will do it via mail order.
You are lucky, in that 2010 + has the DPF that is removable, unlike the 2009 which has the DPF and NOx unit as one.
It is not an easy job, and probably not a job for a light, shade-tree mechanic.
I suggest you head over to Fred's (forums.tdiclub.com).
Good luck. I had a 2010 TDI, and traded it for a 2013 Touareg TDI. I drive VW diesels for the torque. Economy is way down on the list.
However...modern VW diesels are something that I would absolutely NOT own outside of a warranty. Too many expensive bits to go bad, and they go bad way too soon. Contrary to popular belief, the 2009 + CR based VW diesels are going to be very expensive to run for hundreds of thousands of miles, like a lot of diesel owners want to, unlike their predecessors (ALH, etc.) New VW diesels and money savings are simply a false economy anymore. A small Kia, Hyundai, Honda, etc. gasser yields mid to upper 40's and are generally bullet-proof.
Not that I advocate pollution, but if you live in a state that doesn't emission test diesel cars, you can always pull the DPF and NOx catalyst and replace with a downpipe. A Malone tune will get rid of the codes, and eliminate the regen. Just saying....
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ggroves
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Fred's is better info. forums.tdiclub.com
MAKG1
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Be aware that, regardless of state laws, disabling an emissions device is a Federal crime with a rather expensive fine.
14 CFR 1068.101(b)(1). $3750 per day the engine is operated with the device inop (the reg exempts an unintentionally broken device that gets repaired).
VWs are great if you are the kind of person who buys new, drives to 98,000miles and goes back to the dealer for a new one.
That said, my TDI wasn't bad maintenance wise. One $11,000 repair early on and a rip-off con-job from the dealer for $1600 at about 180k miles. Other than that, it has just been random electrical problems. My Accord with 175k miles had a burned out dome-light bulb and a starter.
ggroves
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Yep..but Malone and Rawtek apparently do a "brisk" business with numerous "off road only" vehicles......
ggroves
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Ding, ding, ding! The "drive it 500,000 miles and save lots of money" ship sailed a long time ago. Even then, someone had to be mechanically able to perform the maintenance they required.