ELT opinions please

cgrab

cgrab

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cgrab
During my annual the ELT did not respond. I need a new one. The old one was a 121.5. I can replace it with a used 121.5 (they don't make 121.5 ELTs anymore) or go to 406.
Why a 121.5:
I have the antenna
I always use flight following
I can get one from an aeroclub wreck for $80
My mechanic will put it in for free
It meets the requirements
Why not a 121.5
After the "Squawk VFR" I still may crash and I'm not on flight following
Eventually the FAA will outlaw them
Why a 406:
If I need it, I will be found
Why not a 406:
Wow they are costly
I will need the radio shop to install (old Garmin 50 GPS may not connect)
Need new antenna (more cost)

So, it appears all my "why not 406" are cost related, that's pretty shallow.

Anybody have any opinions or statistical advise to get me (and the holder of the checkbook) over the cost delta?
 
Do you invest in lottery tickets?

1 There are the crashes you can walk away from and/or make a phone call.
2 There are the crashes where you can't walk away, but get found because you crashed at an airport, or in downtown Detroit, or you were talking to ATC and gave them coordinates, or you are near a road.
3 There are the crashes where you barely survive and 1 hour vs. 10 hours will make a difference and you crashed somewhere in the middle of nowhere where you are not likely to be seen and found, and you were unable to contact ATC to let them know where you are going down. And even though the airplane is wrecked, the ELT still works.
4 There are crashes where u b dead no matter what.

How likely are you to fit into the third category? Because, in all the others, it doesn't matter what kind of ELT you have.
 
Good point, as I siad I try to be on with ATC. The times that I'm not I'm approaching an airport. I'm a VFR only guy so I'm not likely to be out in some bad weather.
 
cgrab said:
... Anybody have any opinions or statistical advise to get me (and the holder of the checkbook) over the cost delta?
Click to expand...
Wow.

Somehow "I can get one from an aeroclub wreck for $80" seems like a much weaker argument than "If I need it, I will be found."

In most airplanes, the ELT and the ELT antenna are both in the aft fuselage and very accessible. This should hold your installation cost down.

Re connecting to the panel GPS this is really not all that necessary IMO. The advantage of having the GPS coordinates is that the geostationary COSPAS/SARSAT bird can immediately report your position to the SAR infrastructure. Absent the coordinates, the low earth orbit (LEO) birds might take a couple of passes to get a doppler "merge" of your position. IIRC it's an hour or two. The LEO birds' doppler merge will locate you to within a mile, which is probably close enough for SAR assets to find you.
 
cgrab said:
Good point, as I siad I try to be on with ATC. The times that I'm not I'm approaching an airport. I'm a VFR only guy so I'm not likely to be out in some bad weather.
Click to expand...

What does crashing have to do with the weather necessarily?

Even IFR ATC can forget about you (as has happened). Unlike VFR, there's no positive action a controller needs to do to close an IFR plan. You're dependent on his memory to notice you didn't cancel/close.
 
Ever tried to search a square mile?

It takes longer than you think, especially if forest or hills are involved, or the sun is at a bad angle. Unless the airplane is on fire, a crash in someone's back yard will be invisible.

10 hours is real fast for a 121.5. It takes a minimum of a few hours after overdue to spin up a search, and not much can happen in the dark. If you went up without telling anyone, it may be DAYS before anyone realizes you didn't make it.

ELTs very often don't survive crashes. They are far from fireproof, and disagree rather strongly with tree branches and terrain. My advice is to get the 121.5 and ALSO carry a 406 PLB with you. If you can get one that is shock or water triggered, so much the better. Just don't get it wet. Don't get one with a tip trigger (some marine applications) or you may get a lot of middle of the night visits from ****ed off guys in navy blue shirts.

"I always use flight following" is not enough. It tends to toss you out where you most need it -- heavy traffic and hostile terrain -- and it can't follow you to the ground.

406s are not foolproof, but they are better than 121.5s, in some respects. 406s only "ping" once a minute, whereas 121.5s are continuous. But 121.5s are not monitored by SARSAT anymore, which is a big deal. They are still monitored by legal passing air traffic (you monitor 121.5 whenever able, right? Read your NOTAMs). You lose A LOT of functionality if you skip the GPS connection, or the registration.

The last two crashes around here had limited ELTs (one due to crashing under trees, the other due to fire), and both were found by other means. The one that burned lit up a hillside at night. The other one knocked out local power. The one before that was a near miraculous ELT save high in the Sierra Nevada. That guy did everything right but still had to spend an autumn night at 11,000 feet in below freezing temperatures, with significant injuries.
 
No matter which you buy, at least investigate the antennas. Some of the cheap ass plastic rod ones look like they will break just by looking at them wrong. :nonod:
 
If your occupant's safety doesn't matter to you just placard the POS you have as inoperative and go about flying. It'll work just as well as that $80 replacement POS will.

Get a 406. It matters.
 
MAKG1 said:
ELTs very often don't survive crashes. They are far from fireproof, and disagree rather strongly with tree branches and terrain. My advice is to get the 121.5 and ALSO carry a 406 PLB with you. If you can get one that is QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more.
Click to expand...
 
cgrab said:
During my annual the ELT did not respond. I need a new one. The old one was a 121.5. I can replace it with a used 121.5 (they don't make 121.5 ELTs anymore) or go to 406.
Why a 121.5:
I have the antenna
I always use flight following
I can get one from an aeroclub wreck for $80
My mechanic will put it in for free
It meets the requirements
Why not a 121.5
After the "Squawk VFR" I still may crash and I'm not on flight following
Eventually the FAA will outlaw them
Why a 406:
If I need it, I will be found
Why not a 406:
Wow they are costly
I will need the radio shop to install (old Garmin 50 GPS may not connect)
Need new antenna (more cost)

So, it appears all my "why not 406" are cost related, that's pretty shallow.

Anybody have any opinions or statistical advise to get me (and the holder of the checkbook) over the cost delta?
Click to expand...


Depends on where you are flying.

I highly doubt the Feds will outlaw the 21.5, besides with a ELT it's mostly a saftey issue for me, what the Feds want is nice, but it's main poijt is to save my butt.

If you're flying over populated areas, I wouldn't bother with a 406.

If you're flying backcountry or floats or something where you're waaaaay of the beaten path, might be worth the upgrade.

Also if you have a older ACK ELT, the upgrade is very simple.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/elt406.php

Still like 600 bucks though.

11-06395-1.jpg


If you want something in between and in ways better than a 406 ELT, get a used spot off eBay, seen plenty of basically new ones people are selling.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Do you invest in lottery tickets?

1 There are the crashes you can walk away from and/or make a phone call.
2 There are the crashes where you can't walk away, but get found because you crashed at an airport, or in downtown Detroit, or you were talking to ATC and gave them coordinates, or you are near a road.
3 There are the crashes where you barely survive and 1 hour vs. 10 hours will make a difference and you crashed somewhere in the middle of nowhere where you are not likely to be seen and found, and you were unable to contact ATC to let them know where you are going down. And even though the airplane is wrecked, the ELT still works.
4 There are crashes where u b dead no matter what.

How likely are you to fit into the third category? Because, in all the others, it doesn't matter what kind of ELT you have.
Click to expand...

ELTs of all varieties are designed for event #3 so what's your point? If you are relying on an ELT, you would probably like to get found.

If I need to get found, there is no question in my mind that I'd want a 406 ELT.

I spent years with the Civil Air Patrol searching for 121.5 MHz ELTs in the mountains and in the plains on actual downed aircraft and in exercises. 121.5 ELTs suck and that is why 406 ELTs are now standard. Even when 121.5 ELTs do survive the crash and work as designed they suck and can take days to find if they are found at all.

If you have a 121.5 ELT you might as well have no ELT because sats no longer monitor 121.5. With a 406 ELT you'd get found much faster because satellites are listening and will relay your position on to AFRCC and on down the SAR chain.

Ask yourself this: if you need the ELT, will those few extra dollars matter at that point?
 
petrolero said:
I spent years with the Civil Air Patrol searching for 121.5 MHz ELTs in the mountains and in the plains on actual downed aircraft
Click to expand...
How many of those would have been saved with a 406 ELT?

How many would have been alive if they had spent the ELT money on a fuel totalizer?
 
James331 said:
How about a 25¢ fuel stick and keeping track of time, no gadgets required.
Click to expand...
Good point. It's not like any pilot has ever run out of gas.

And, by not flying into trees or mountains or other things, you can avoid ever needing an ELT.
 
If you're on VFR flight following in an area with known poor radar/radio coverage the controller is not likely to do anything except transmit 'N1234X radar contact lost, squawk VFR, recommend xxx center in 40 miles' If there's a VFR flight plan then maybe a few hours later someone will check to see if you were in the system.

And if there's a 121.5 ELT going off then maybe a few days later someone will try and see where it is so it doesn't annoy any more airliners.

I carry a PLB with me at all times while flying. If I owned an aircraft I'd have a 406.
 
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chartbundle said:
If you're on VFR flight following in an area with known poor radar/radio coverage the controller is not likely to do anything except transmit 'N1234X radar coverage lost, squawk VFR, recommend xxx center in 40 miles' If there's a VFR flight plan then maybe a few hours later someone will check to see if you were in the system.

And if there's a 121.5 ELT going off then maybe a few days later someone will try and see where it is so it doesn't annoy any more airliners.

I carry a PLB with me at all times while flying. If I owned an aircraft I'd have a 406.
Click to expand...


PLB's are the most accurate and predictable in getting the word out on a mishap.........

406 ELT's are about as reliable as 121.5 units.... Senator Stevens from Alaska died before rescue could save him... That plane he was in had a BRAND new, properly installed 406................ And it failed to send a signal...:mad2::mad2::mad2::sad::sad:
 
Not. The installation WAS an issue. It failed to broadcast because the antenna cable had been severed. Get an ELT installed in Alaska and the mechanic will be extremely careful to follow the structural requirements, which by the way, almost none of your planes are compliant with. So when you want to talk about ELT reliability? Look at your own installations for why there are reliability issues. 1/10th of an inch deflection with 100# of applied force maximum in the most flexible direction. That applies to 121.5 units, too. How does your mechanic sign your annual off if the ELT isn't properly installed?
 
Stewartb said:
Not. The installation WAS an issue. It failed to broadcast because the antenna cable had been severed. Get an ELT installed in Alaska and the mechanic will be extremely careful to follow the structural requirements, which by the way, almost none of your planes are compliant with. So when you want to talk about ELT reliability? Look at your own installations for why there are reliability issues. 1/10th of an inch deflection with 100# of applied force maximum in the most flexible direction. That applies to 121.5 units, too. How does your mechanic sign your annual off if the ELT isn't properly installed?
Click to expand...

I have owned several certified planes....... NEVER again......

The main reason I built and own a experimental....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:... I control my OWN destiny now.... And I sleep good at night too...;)


Ps.. Your story about Ted's Elt improper install is news to me...... Care to share a link or two ???:dunno::dunno:
 
Google it. You ignored the facts in the original news stories. Find them yourself.

If anyone has any questions about the real benefits of 406? Ask a professional search & rescue crewman. Don't know one? PM me. I can hook you up with a couple of Pave Hawk Captains that work RCC for a living. They won't mince words and their words will not support 121.5.
 
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Stewartb said:
Not. The installation WAS an issue.
Click to expand...

The precise reason that the ELT did not remain attached to the airplane is not known. However, it is possible that the ELT was not installed correctly, either at the time of installation or after the periodic inspections. A number of ELT manufacturers5 employ mounting designs similar to the one used for the Artex ME406; the ELT unit is attached to a mounting tray by various types of straps.

http://avstop.com/news_january_2011/sen_stevens_plane_crash_ntsb_issues_elt_recommendations.htm

Isn't it a coincidence that velcro straps on ELTs became topic of a special airworthiness bulletin?

You make it sound like the ELT tray or whatever it was secured to is what failed. That is not the case. If you think any ELT installation out there has provisions to maintain cable integrity should the ELT become dislodged/detatched from the tray, you are wrong.
 
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It isn't difficult for a person to properly secure two halves of Velcro together. It is possible for inappropriate pressure to be applied and/or a mechanic to fail to apply appropriate pressure to interlock the two components. Changing it to suit the lowest functioning mechanic is how the system works. That does not mean the design was all bad. But then I've had an Atex ME406 for many years and you advocate 121.5. Go figure.
 
Thanks for all the help and good advice. The snarky comments are what one expects from the internet.
I have decided to get the used 121.5 and a PLB.
Researching PLBs there appears to be two basic candidates: the Fastfind 220 and the ResQlink 2881.
Does anyone have an opinion on either of these?
 
Stewartb said:
It isn't difficult for a person to properly secure two halves of Velcro together. It is possible for inappropriate pressure to be applied and/or a mechanic to fail to apply appropriate pressure to interlock the two components. Changing it to suit the lowest functioning mechanic is how the system works. That does not mean the design was all bad. But then I've had an Atex ME406 for many years and you advocate 121.5. Go figure.
Click to expand...

I'm sure the company that first introduced the velcro method thought it was a great cost savings solution. The metal strap and latch on mine will not lock unless the transmitter is properly seated on my ELT assembly. Nor will it burn.
 
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cgrab said:
Thanks for all the help and good advice. The snarky comments are what one expects from the internet.
I have decided to get the used 121.5 and a PLB.
Researching PLBs there appears to be two basic candidates: the Fastfind 220 and the ResQlink 2881.
Does anyone have an opinion on either of these?
Click to expand...

I'm wondering the same. Hope someone does. I was looking fir field replacable batteries for instance.
 
I just sunk into a AK450 last week after the AP found the my old ELT's antenna connection broken at the ELT end during annual. The unit in my airplane looked like it was the original 1973 unit LOL. I guess the nice thing about the replacement is I can take care of the legalese battery kabuki with $8 D-cells from now on, so that sold me.

Granted, my choice is based on the fact I personally don't find value to an ELT installation for the kind of flying I do. A cell phone is a much more practical and effective method of recovery for me, followed by a 406 PLB if I were to invest in one. Since I'm legally forced to have one, the 121.5 installation was preferable, as it doesn't suffer from the headache an inadvertent activation of a 406 ELT brings and the price tag was lower.
 
Well for starters, I would not buy an Ameri-King. Mine is five years old (it is a 121.5/406.) and last week I tested it during my condition inspection on the experimental. It tested fine, the batteries (four, size of a D cell but 3 volts each, cost $50 each) tested fine. Put it back in and re-armed the ELT for service. Continued my inspection and kept hearing a beep in the cockpit, found the remote green light going off ever few minutes, the green light was also on the ELT itself. It was not sending a signal on 121.5 and I don't think on 406 either (no way to check that). I removed the remote and the 3 volt battery indicates 2.9 volts, not dead but a little low.

Called Ameri-king and talked with the asian tech. I felt it was the remote battery indicating it was low, no where in the manual does it say what happens if the remote battery gets low. He said "it broke send me I fix". I again explained my thought about the remote battery. He said "want battery I send". I explained I can get the remote battery at Walgreens if that's what it needs. Again "it broke, you send, I fix. It makes sense to me to have some kind of indicator of the remote battery condition. If this is it why did he not just tell me. All of this will make no difference if the new remote battery does not remedy the situation and it really is "broke".

Then did some internet searching and their reputation is not quite up to par for aviation work or any kind of work done for me.

So first chance I get I will replace the remote battery, If that does not fix it, I will trash it.

Then I am going to get a good $400 PLB, mount it on the side of the panel and manually turn it on if needed. I will also use it on my boat and with us when we go hiking in CO.

Of course as always this is just my opinion on this product and this company and their services.

Dale
 
If you guys want to discredit ELT performance with comments like how a Velcro retainer might burn? Use the GPS enabling feature that most manufacturers offer. Your position and identity are transmitted immediately. Burn, sink, whatever. Your chances of recovery are far better than with your PLBs. Or if you really want the good stuff? Get a Spidertracks unit. Have your position tracked at two minute intervals including altitude, speed, heading, time, and exact location. Link the info to a couple of hundred friends so they can view your progress on their phones. Have take-off and landings texted as well, determined by threshold speeds that you select. Amazing stuff, this technology. Not so amazing, that 121.5 that hasn't been supported for many years. For what it's worth I knew Senator Stevens and the pilot flying that Otter. I knew the guy in the attached article, too. My plane is equipped with a 406 and a Spidertracks unit. This is real I've for me. Use your judgement, live or die with the results. That's freedom at work.
http://www.ktuu.com/news/news/ntsb-pilot-attempted-water-landing-in-fatal-crash/32469384
 
dalealan said:
Well for starters, I would not buy an Ameri-King. Mine is five years old (it is a 121.5/406.) and last week I tested it during my condition inspection on the experimental. It tested fine, the batteries (four, size of a D cell but 3 volts each, cost $50 each) tested fine. Put it back in and re-armed the ELT for service. Continued my inspection and kept hearing a beep in the cockpit, found the remote green light going off ever few minutes, the green light was also on the ELT itself. It was not sending a signal on 121.5 and I don't think on 406 either (no way to check that). I removed the remote and the 3 volt battery indicates 2.9 volts, not dead but a little low.

Called Ameri-king and talked with the asian tech. I felt it was the remote battery indicating it was low, no where in the manual does it say what happens if the remote battery gets low. He said "it broke send me I fix". I again explained my thought about the remote battery. He said "want battery I send". I explained I can get the remote battery at Walgreens if that's what it needs. Again "it broke, you send, I fix. It makes sense to me to have some kind of indicator of the remote battery condition. If this is it why did he not just tell me. All of this will make no difference if the new remote battery does not remedy the situation and it really is "broke".

Then did some internet searching and their reputation is not quite up to par for aviation work or any kind of work done for me.

So first chance I get I will replace the remote battery, If that does not fix it, I will trash it.

Then I am going to get a good $400 PLB, mount it on the side of the panel and manually turn it on if needed. I will also use it on my boat and with us when we go hiking in CO.

Of course as always this is just my opinion on this product and this company and their services.

Dale
Click to expand...

Good feedback.....

Thanks buddy...:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
No 406 on the market uses D cells. I suspect he meant 121.5/243.
 
Agree that you should avoid AmeriKing. I had a similar problem that required replacement, except that the unit was 6 months old. We discovered the issue when the plane was in for avionics work and the tech heard beeping. There was no transmit involved.

There are better units out there.
 
wsuffa said:
Agree that you should avoid AmeriKing. I had a similar problem that required replacement, except that the unit was 6 months old. We discovered the issue when the plane was in for avionics work and the tech heard beeping. There was no transmit involved.

There are better units out there.
Click to expand...

Kinda makes ya wonder how the FAA blesses those ( marginal) products....:dunno::dunno:
 
Spend more money so you can feel like you are doing something in the name of safety.
 
Tim said:
Spend more money so you can feel like you are doing something in the name of safety.
Click to expand...

Kinda reminds me of the FAA certified, approved and quality controlled VAR crankshafts from Lycoming...:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad::rolleyes:
 
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