Authority to detain?

MSmith

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Display name:
Mark Smith
My brother is a police officer in the DC area. Recently, he was detailed to an airport to "detain the pilot of aircraft Nxxxxx and inspect the aircraft until the Secret Service arrives".

The pilot cooperated grumpily. It seems that he busted a Prohibited Zone, scrambling F-16s.

My brother asks this question of me (and now I ask it of you):

"Under what authority can local law enforcement detain a pilot?"

Apparently he and his superiors were trying to figure that out.

Please keep the thread narrowly on the topic of the legal authority for local law enforcement to detain pilots for the federales.

Thanks.
 
My brother is a police officer in the DC area. Recently, he was detailed to an airport to "detain the pilot of aircraft Nxxxxx and inspect the aircraft until the Secret Service arrives".

The pilot cooperated grumpily. It seems that he busted a Prohibited Zone, scrambling F-16s.

My brother asks this question of me (and now I ask it of you):

"Under what authority can local law enforcement detain a pilot?"

Apparently he and his superiors were trying to figure that out.

Please keep the thread narrowly on the topic of the legal authority for local law enforcement to detain pilots for the federales.

Thanks.

The FAA rules the air. Local authorities rule the ground.
 
My brother is a police officer in the DC area. Recently, he was detailed to an airport to "detain the pilot of aircraft Nxxxxx and inspect the aircraft until the Secret Service arrives".

The pilot cooperated grumpily. It seems that he busted a Prohibited Zone, scrambling F-16s.

My brother asks this question of me (and now I ask it of you):

"Under what authority can local law enforcement detain a pilot?"

Apparently he and his superiors were trying to figure that out.

Please keep the thread narrowly on the topic of the legal authority for local law enforcement to detain pilots for the federales.

Thanks.

Are there any federal, state, or local criminal statutes about violating the ADIZ? Can local enforcement be called upon to detain someone suspected of violating a federal statute (I think so)?
 
Can local enforcement be called upon to detain someone suspected of violating a federal statute (I think so)?

Most likely. I had a not very smart friend that was detained by local law enforcement by request of the Secret Service until they arrived.
 
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Are there any federal, state, or local criminal statutes about violating the ADIZ? Can local enforcement be called upon to detain someone suspected of violating a federal statute (I think so)?

I think the key phrase you're looking for here is "Homeland Security". It's government speak for "We're going to detain you whether you like it or not". After all, if they look tough on us GA pilots then maybe people will think they're safer.
 
Cops can detain anybody on the ground for a reasonable time during an investigation, right? Why would this be any different? Like any citizen, you can ask if you're under arrest and if not, bid adieu.

The only FAR is the one that says the pilot has to present his/her certificate and medical on request of law enforcement.

I was talking to a truck driver the other night. They have to present their logs (and bills of lading? Kent?), too.
 
I had a group of 6 friends that were arrested for counterfeiting money.

Local Law Enforcement detained them until the Secret Service came by.
 
I had a group of 6 friends that were arrested for counterfeiting money.

Local Law Enforcement detained them until the Secret Service came by.

Nick:

There's a story here, tell it!
 
My brother is a police officer in the DC area. Recently, he was detailed to an airport to "detain the pilot of aircraft Nxxxxx and inspect the aircraft until the Secret Service arrives".

The pilot cooperated grumpily. It seems that he busted a Prohibited Zone, scrambling F-16s.

My brother asks this question of me (and now I ask it of you):

"Under what authority can local law enforcement detain a pilot?"

Apparently he and his superiors were trying to figure that out.

Please keep the thread narrowly on the topic of the legal authority for local law enforcement to detain pilots for the federales.

Thanks.

Well, they can do anything they want as long as you agree to it. What the true legal standing there is, I'm not sure.
 
I believe any law enforcement officer can detain an individual for a warrant or if wanted for questioning. And, the same can ask to view a pilot certificate but it's my understanding only an FAA official can retain possession of a pilot certificate.


~~~~~~~
Nick... Start a thread and tell this story. BTW, how are you financing your new build? :D
 
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I was talking to a truck driver the other night. They have to present their logs (and bills of lading? Kent?), too.

5 things. Registration and permits, Bills of lading, logs, license, medical.

However, that's only for state troopers... "County Mounties" and local police don't get to see the logbook unless they present their DOT credentials (which shows that they have taken the course to actually be able to properly read and interpret the logbook.) They'll usually just say "Is your logbook up to date?" "Why, of course. :D"

Of course, if you tick 'em off, they'll just keep you there and call their buddies at the state patrol to come and check the book.
 
Sigh.

The following are OWT:

1. The feds rule the air, the locals rule the ground. Overly broad statement that fails to take into account the myriad exceptions to the rule such as reckless behavior, offenses that take place in the air but have a nexus to local jurisdiction etc.

2. Local law enforcement is powerless when it comes to Federal law. As several people remarked above that simply isn't true. For one thing, there is almost always a local statute or law that someone can be charged with or investigated on until the Feds show up. It is also recognized that law enforcement in general has the responsibility to maintain order and that includes the power of detention while any criminal activity is investigated.

Like any citizen, you can ask if you're under arrest and if not, bid adieu.
Double sigh. Ever heard them say on TV "not unless you try to leave?" It's true.

Under what authority can local law enforcement detain a pilot? Same authority they have to detain a shoplifter, a possible drug dealer, a bank robber, an illegal alien or a jaywalker. They can detain anyone for a reasonable length of time while they conduct an investigation to determine if 1. laws were broken 2. by whom and 3. until other authorities can arrive with more specialized jurisdiction or expertise. I bold the word "if" because it is an important point that breaks through some of your arguments above.
 
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So Nick, Do you still have the plates?

Plates are Soooooooo old school. Get one of the old Canon Color Lasar Copiers (or printers) from the early 90s, one from the first two years they were made. After that, they won't print "Money Green".
 
First, local law enforcement may indeed "detain" for questioning a pilot upon the valid request of federal law enforcement regarding a violation of Federal law such as suspected penetration of the FRZ/ADIZ. Since the FRZ/ADIZ are Presidential protection issues, the Secret Service does have the authority to detain/question violators. And that means you can't say "If I'm not under arrest, I'm leaving." (Well, you can say it, but you can't do it until they're done questioning you.)

Also, while the many people listed in 14 CFR 61.3(l) can demand that you present your pilot certificate for inspection, nobody (including FAA officials) can keep it unless it is currently under order of suspension/revocation or you voluntarily sign a letter of surrender (and that's not a simple process). The only exception is if you are actually arrested by law enforcement and hauled in, they can voucher and retain all your personal possessions (including your pilot certificate) until you are released, but they then must return all legally possessed items (i.e., they don't have to give back your bag of dope), including your pilot certificate.
 
Story (will keep it brief):

Group of friends decided to counterfeit 20 dollar bills, because they were informed that 20s were less likely to draw interest from people who would check. They printed the money on crappy paper and roughed it up real good, and it really, really looked authentic.

They were fine for about a year, when one of them went into a Burger King, right next to a bank, which had just given them the fancy new (at the time) counterfeit pens.

Almost simultaneously, one of the guys was at a brand new casino and tried to exchange about $300 worth of counterfeits into real money (mini laundering), and the Casino had the counterfeit pens.

The next day, out of fear of being caught, 2 of the guys offloaded their money into the local economy, without much return (I believe they spent most of it at Walmart). They were detained on their way out of some shopping center.

At school the next day, APS/APD Joint Officer Norlander came in to each class and detained the remaining 4 students, and held them in the office at school, waiting for Secret Service to come.

One of the 4 took off out of the office and was arrested for violating a lawful order to stay put (or something along those lines).

All 6 were arraigned and convicted of counterfeiting at least $1000 each, and 3 of the 6 spent time in Federal Prison, since they were over 18. One of the three got 2 years of probation, and the other 2 went to juvenile hall.

One of the 6, 3 years later, was arrested for credit card fraud at the Coronado Mall in Albuquerque and last I heard, was never allowed to touch a personal computer again (that may be wives tale, as I no longer talk with him). The other 5 have led normal lives since the incident.

FWIW, the Secret Service fellows were jerks. I had nothing to do with the case, walked into the office (ok, I admit, I was curious and wanted to see) to speak with the counselor about something, and I was escorted out. When I literally told the SS guy that he was very similar to another SS group I'd heard of, he threw me against the wall and threated he would "Ruin yours and your parent's life" if I didn't apologize. I threw him some nice comments, laced with obscenities and walked away, shooting him the finger (I was one of those obnoxious rebellious teens).

I probably didn't help my friend's cause.
 
Bottom line is that sworn local officers can detain someone in their jurisdiction at the request of federal law enforcement. If they need to operate outside of their jurisdiction, it takes literally seconds to deputize a local officer and !poof! they are a federal officer.

Secret Service itself operates under a very wide degree of latitude when it comes to protecting the president and others. One can argue that an ADIZ violation gives the Secret Service cause to act, and their powers are almost unlimited in the short term.
 
The Secret Service guys were jerks? Really? :rolleyes:

I met them in high school, too. They were decent to us.

It wasn't the same circumstances. Nixon's son-in-law came to talk to us and I was vice-president of the student council.

We also had a SS agent do a presentation for a business group I belonged to.
 
I've know a number of SS people throughout the years. In my experience, they were nothing but professional.
 
I'm not saying that all SS are jerks, but the ones were that day, mostly, IMHO, to scare my friends into talking.
 
Story (will keep it brief):

Group of friends decided to counterfeit 20 dollar bills, because they were informed that 20s were less likely to draw interest from people who would check.

That's the most counterfeited bill for that very reason. Anything higher gets looked at really closely, anything smaller just isn't worth the time and effort to counterfeit (for the pros anyway, I've seen kids try to counterfeit $1's! they spent more money in ink and paper than they were able to print :yes: )

I've met a few Secret Service guys over the years, most have been very professional and were stand up guys/gals. But they're like State Troopers... they have NO sense of humor.. they get it surgically removed in the academy. :D
 
My brother is a police officer in the DC area. Recently, he was detailed to an airport to "detain the pilot of aircraft Nxxxxx and inspect the aircraft until the Secret Service arrives".

...

My brother asks this question of me (and now I ask it of you):

"Under what authority can local law enforcement detain a pilot?"

Apparently he and his superiors were trying to figure that out.

That is an appropriate question for them to ask. It is better for everyone if law enforcement knows what their authority is, who has jurisdiction, etc.

I assume that they also asked their legal advisor (I have no idea if that would be the DA, City attorney, etc). There is a legal staff somewhere that has the responsibility for giving them legal advice on the correct way to carry out their job, including which requests to honor, how to do it, etc.

If they had never had to deal with a "pilot" situation before, it is understandable that they may need to ask someone for more information. I suppose asking a pilot may provide be a shortcut on the off chance that a pilot would know about specific aviation-related authorizations.

I work as a computer system administrator, and was once served with a subpeona from an obscure government office. When I called the University's legal counsel (which I do anytime we get a subpeona), his reaction was "who? fax it over, I'll have to research what their rights are and what our obligations are. Don't do anything else until I find out."

We once had a talk by an Assistant US Attorney about computer crime issues. His #1 message: he begged us to get legal advice if we were every dealing with a computer crime sitiuation, and make sure that we didn't do anything until the police had a search warrant, no matter how nicely they asked, in order to preserve the admissability of any possible evidence.

--david
 
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