Cat needs a kidney; Now I'm the client

[gprellwitz]

Sorry, John. Blessings to you and Leslie.

 

[JOhnH]

Do you have any pictures of Moose?

Only a few hundred. I will post some when I get home Monday or Tuesday.

And many thanks to all of you for your kind words and thoughts.

 

[Doggtyred]

Awww... rats... tough break.

I just started reading this thread today (saturday).. and was going to ask if there was any consideration to the lifelong cost of anti-rejection drugs.. That point is now moot.

It sucks losing a loved one.. even pets..

 

[silver-eagle]

I am sorry for your loss. I just read the whole thread rooting for Moose's speedy recovery. I quite understand doing all possible for him. I have three rescue dogs who ARE my family and I would do anything for.

 

[Steve Foley]

That's not the happy ending I was hoping for. Sorry for your loss.

 

[JOhnH]

Here are a couple of Leslie's favorite pics of Moose.

 

[woodstock]

What a pretty, sweet cat. He looks like a lover.

 

[gprellwitz]

That grey mackerel tabby looks just like the one we lost this year. Sorry for your loss!

 

[comanchepilot]

Just got back to this thread - sorry for your loss.

you never need to justify why you decide to do things - we can have different opinions and neither of us evil or stupid. . ..

 

[sferguson524]

 

[John Baker]

I spend way too much of the little money I have on animals. I have two cats of my own, and one of the neighbors cats that spends most of his days, sometimes nights, at my house.

My big eighteen pounder has adopted the family in the house next door to me, he hangs out there as much as he does here. They have been out of town for the last four days, he makes about three or four trips a day over there to see if they are back yet. He seems genuinely concerned for a cat that never has any facial expressions whatsoever. I've never had a cat that had a blank face before.

Then I put out food for all the wild critters and strays every night.

I know exactly where your coming from, these creatures are sneaky little things, they worm their way into our hearts and our bank accounts, at least those of us who are susceptible to their charms.

When I had a decent income, I did not mind spending a few thousand dollars to save an animal, I've even done it for a feral cat once. Now that I'm retired, I guess All I can do is try to find someone to help gratis or just make them as comfortable as I can and let what is going to happen, happen.

It has not come up yet since I retired, so I do not know how I will feel, heck, I might have some extra money just when it's needed.

I agree 100% with what your doing, these creatures are family. I hope it all works out for your cat, your new cat, and you.

-John

 

[John Baker]

Damn, I skipped over the post that counted. Sorry for your loss. Moose looks exactly like the feral cat I saved years ago.

Best,

-John

 

[N801BH]

thread resurect....

Got the kitty 9 years ago from the pound.. Poor thing must have been seriously abused as it took about two years till she actually became comfortable with people.. I gave her a great life ... and she knew it.. Last month she seems a bit slow so off the vets... Tests showed kidney failing.. probably when she was starved before we got her... On Tues she quit eating and drinking..

I have not slept more then a 1/2 hour at a time making sure she was comfortable.. Took her to the vets on Fri and they gave her an IV, shot of steroids, one to keep her from throwing up and antibiotic... She rallied till mid day Sat and then cratered again.. Stayed up all last night carrying her to her water and food bowl and kitty box..... This morning she gave me that look....... Took her back to the vet and stopped her suffering... At 9:15 AM she left us.... Built a little coffin and dug a grave in 4 feet of snow and frozen ground...


Kitters was a GOOD kitty....

 

[Henning]

Bummer Ben.

 

[Scrabo]

Best thing you can do for any pet is get pet insurance, in a time of illness, you don't hesitate twice when it comes to treatment for your animal, some plans off 90% back but of course you pay.

 

[N801BH]

Best thing you can do for any pet is get pet insurance, in a time of illness, you don't hesitate twice when it comes to treatment for your animal, some plans off 90% back but of course you pay.

Yeah, but... when they are suffering.... we humans ( caretakers of furry friends) sometimes need to make difficult decisions...... Money and insurance will not buy quality life for our little fur friends... IMHO/..

Ps.. Thanks Henning for the comment.. it is DAMN quiet in my house tonight....

 

[Scrabo]

Yeah, but... when they are suffering.... we humans ( caretakers of furry friends) sometimes need to make difficult decisions...... Money and insurance will not buy quality life for our little fur friends... IMHO/..

Ps.. Thanks Henning for the comment.. it is DAMN quiet in my house tonight....

True but it helps not having to think twice about ordering X-rays for example, versus putting food on the table.

I lost two over the last few years, one to chemo induced kidney failure and the other last year to IMHA , having insurance helped with the costs and I know we tried our best to help them.

 

[Tristar]

That's awesome that you would go to such lengths for your furry friend. My kitty may annoy me sometimes but she's always by my side and will never judge me for who I am. I think that's why many people do so much for their pets.

 

[Alexb2000]

Really sorry to hear this Ben. I am a pet lover too, each one that leaves us is like losing a child. She had a good life with you and I'm sure gave you a lot of love in return. That's all any of us can hope for.

BTW- Kidney failure has taken my last three cats, all VERY well treated. I believe its pretty common.

 

[Henning]

Really sorry to hear this Ben. I am a pet lover too, each one that leaves us is like losing a child. She had a good life with you and I'm sure gave you a lot of love in return. That's all any of us can hope for.

BTW- Kidney failure has taken my last three cats, all VERY well treated. I believe its pretty common.

It wouldn't surprise me to find it being the primary health related cause of death in cats.

 

[Norman]

I haven't had a cat in years but our shop has a tabby that is just a love sponge. She's getting up there in years. Gonna be sad when she goes.

 

[Scrabo]

It wouldn't surprise me to find it being the primary health related cause of death in cats.

It is the #1 natural killer of cats, closely followed by cancer.

We have a cat with kidney issues, IV fluids twice a week and epatikin supplement twice a day on food.

 

[Sac Arrow]

It's always sad to lose a pet. If The Kitty were to go today, I would miss him a lot. Unfortunately it's a when, not an if. Just like anything else I guess. But what is the value here? How much am I willing to pay to keep him going? I don't know the answer to that. I will say it's in the hundreds, but it's not in the thousands.

 

[JOhnH]

So sorry to hear that Ben. Believe me, I know how you feel. Sometimes there is just nothing that you can do. You have my sympathy and gratitude for doing what was best for your friend.

As for insurance, we highly recommend it unless you can afford an unexpected bill of multiple thousand dollars. We put so many cats to sleep because of a situation like the ones you and I found ourselves in because the people can't come up with the money. They offer to pay $15/week for the rest of their lives, but if they had just put that money into an insurance policy they wouldn't have to make that decision. We have taken promissory notes like the one I just mentioned, but none of them have ever paid off; (in financial terms).

Pet insurance is not a money saver. But it does buy the peace of mind that you won't have to allow a friend to die because you are not prepared.

thread resurect....

Got the kitty 9 years ago from the pound.. Poor thing must have been seriously abused as it took about two years till she actually became comfortable with people.. I gave her a great life ... and she knew it.. Last month she seems a bit slow so off the vets... Tests showed kidney failing.. probably when she was starved before we got her... On Tues she quit eating and drinking..

I have not slept more then a 1/2 hour at a time making sure she was comfortable.. Took her to the vets on Fri and they gave her an IV, shot of steroids, one to keep her from throwing up and antibiotic... She rallied till mid day Sat and then cratered again.. Stayed up all last night carrying her to her water and food bowl and kitty box..... This morning she gave me that look....... Took her back to the vet and stopped her suffering... At 9:15 AM she left us.... Built a little coffin and dug a grave in 4 feet of snow and frozen ground...


Kitters was a GOOD kitty....

 

[N801BH]

I am a serious animal person, Have had St Bernards all my life.. Large breed, lovable as hell but limited life span.. Usually the heart gives out.. My first cat (critter) made it 21 years... Died 10 years ago at home in the midlle of the night with me holding her on Groundhogs day.. Kitters died on Groundhog day.. Weird huh???..

Costs do add up. I am not against paying wherever is needed if there will be a successful resolution.. Kitters was estimated to be 7-10 years when we got her so she was at the tail end of a good life and IMHO the best path was to let her go....

Vets are getting expensive too.. During the divorce, my attorney had a forensic accountant go through our checking account.. I just let the ex do her thing since she is an accountant and she was responsible for vet stuff.. I trusted her...

Turns out in a 8 year period, the bills for 3 St Bernards and a couple of cats added up to over 26,000.00.....
The vet we used (were) nice people . Husband and wife operation.. We were their first customer back in 1992.. I just assumed they were treating us right. Their business ( Spring Creek Animal Hospital) grew over the years..

Up until a month ago kitters was real healthy.. The office visit a month ago was 180.00.. Then 3 weeks ago was the basic blood test, office visit was 300.00..

The last Friday the office visit, IV, 3 shots and 1 small can of food 180.00 . I just went to town and paid my last bill for putting her down.. I was in the office for maybe 10 minutes.. 1 shot of sedative to calm her, 1 shot of propafal and one shot of the yellow stuff that did the poor kitty in....

203.00..

I need to find a cheaper vet as I also went to the pound this morning and looked at some cats as my house is WAY too quiet for me, and eventually I am getting another fur child...

God as my witness, I NEVER thought I would live this long, in fact I was pretty sure kitters would have outlived me... Funny how life plays out...

 

[JOhnH]

How much do you think a Vet should earn, and what corners do you think he should cut to keep prices down? Or is there a 3rd option that I haven't figured out yet?

The two biggest complaints I get are "you cost too much" and "it takes tool long to get an appointment". These usually come from the same people. I always want to ask them which problem I should address because fixing either one will make the other one worse.

I am a serious animal person, Have had St Bernards all my life.. Large breed, lovable as hell but limited life span.. Usually the heart gives out.. My first cat (critter) made it 21 years... Died 10 years ago at home in the midlle of the night with me holding her on Groundhogs day.. Kitters died on Groundhog day.. Weird huh???..

Costs do add up. I am not against paying wherever is needed if there will be a successful resolution.. Kitters was estimated to be 7-10 years when we got her so she was at the tail end of a good life and IMHO the best path was to let her go....

Vets are getting expensive too.. During the divorce, my attorney had a forensic accountant go through our checking account.. I just let the ex do her thing since she is an accountant and she was responsible for vet stuff.. I trusted her...

Turns out in a 8 year period, the bills for 3 St Bernards and a couple of cats added up to over 26,000.00.....
The vet we used (were) nice people . Husband and wife operation.. We were their first customer back in 1992.. I just assumed they were treating us right. Their business ( Spring Creek Animal Hospital) grew over the years..

Up until a month ago kitters was real healthy.. The office visit a month ago was 180.00.. Then 3 weeks ago was the basic blood test, office visit was 300.00..

The last Friday the office visit, IV, 3 shots and 1 small can of food 180.00 . I just went to town and paid my last bill for putting her down.. I was in the office for maybe 10 minutes.. 1 shot of sedative to calm her, 1 shot of propafal and one shot of the yellow stuff that did the poor kitty in....

203.00..

I need to find a cheaper vet as I also went to the pound this morning and looked at some cats as my house is WAY too quiet for me, and eventually I am getting another fur child...

God as my witness, I NEVER thought I would live this long, in fact I was pretty sure kitters would have outlived me... Funny how life plays out...

 

[Henning]

How much do you think a Vet should earn, and what corners do you think he should cut to keep prices down? Or is there a 3rd option that I haven't figured out yet?

The two biggest complaints I get are "you cost too much" and "it takes tool long to get an appointment". These usually come from the same people. I always want to ask them which problem I should address because fixing either one will make the other one worse.

You should go ahead and ask them, make them think.

 

[JOhnH]

You should go ahead and ask them, make them think.

Possibly, but my philosophy is "The customer may be wrong, but you never win an argument with a customer". So I save my arguments for POA.

 

[N801BH]

How much do you think a Vet should earn, and what corners do you think he should cut to keep prices down? Or is there a 3rd option that I haven't figured out yet?

The two biggest complaints I get are "you cost too much" and "it takes tool long to get an appointment". These usually come from the same people. I always want to ask them which problem I should address because fixing either one will make the other one worse.

Whatever the market can bear... Free enterprise and all...... Unless the yellow stuff in god awful expensive. it is hard to guess what vets pharma costs are..

As a commercial contractor with ALOT of fixed costs I can say I would be out of business tomorrow if I charged 1200.00 an hour.....

This practice has 5 vets with usually 3 working 10 hour shifts.... 36 grand a day in gross income is a nice operation IMHO.... That's 13+ milllion a year..

Ps.. I just did a little research and there are now 4 other vets I didn't even know existed.. The best and the most reasonable will get ALL my future business....

So. to answer your question.....

The market will decide for you....

 

[jesse]

Whatever the market can bear... Free enterprise and all...... Unless the yellow stuff in god awful expensive. it is hard to guess what vets pharma costs are..

As a commercial contractor with ALOT of fixed costs I can say I would be out of business tomorrow if I charged 1200.00 an hour.....

This practice has 5 vets with usually 3 working 10 hour shifts.... 36 grand a day in gross income is a nice operation IMHO.... That's 13+ milllion a year..

Ps.. I just did a little research and there are now 4 other vets I didn't even know existed.. The best and the most reasonable will get ALL my future business....

So. to answer your question.....

The market will decide for you....

I've found some vets to be very reasonable with the cost of the pharmacy stuff and others insanely ridiculously over priced. If the cost of something they say my animal needs seems high to me, then I just call a people pharmacy and ask what the drug costs. If it's MUCH less than the vet I ask the vet for a prescription I can fill at the people pharmacy. If they won't give me one - then I find a new vet.

 

[JOhnH]

I've found some vets to be very reasonable with the cost of the pharmacy stuff and others insanely ridiculously over priced. If the cost of something they say my animal needs seems high to me, then I just call a people pharmacy and ask what the drug costs. If it's MUCH less than the vet I ask the vet for a prescription I can fill at the people pharmacy. If they won't give me one - then I find a new vet.

You have stumbled upon a hidden truth.

But just because one vet marks his pharmaceuticals up more than another vet, that doesn't mean the other vet doesn't make up for it by jacking up his exam or surgery fees. Similar quality vets have similar costs and they have to meet those costs somehow. So if one vet is always less expensive than another you have cause to wonder where he is cutting corners.

I have been asked why I charge $25 for a rabies shot when the vet down the road charges $15. It is because the vaccine I use costs me $14 and the one he uses costs $2.10. I get an $11 markup and he gets a $12.90 markup. Yes, he saves you $11, but guess which vaccine is more likely to have a serious reaction.

And here is another hidden truth: "Almost all vets are wonderful people and good doctors, but most of the ones I know are terrible businessmen". They undercharge for some stuff and overcharge for other stuff and they often don't even know it.

Oh, and our cost structure for pharmaceuticals is exactly the same as human hospitals. Most of the time, the drugs are exactly the same although we may have to pay extra to get them compounded in suitable animal strengths. And vets rarely get big quantity discounts.



And here is my last hidden truth for today: A very big part of the reason vets are getting expensive is because people demand it. If I didn't offer ultrasound and in-house laboratory diagnostics, people would go elsewhere.

 

[jesse]

You have stumbled upon a hidden truth.

But just because one vet marks his pharmaceuticals up more than another vet, that doesn't mean the other vet doesn't make up for it by jacking up his exam or surgery fees. Similar quality vets have similar costs and they have to meet those costs somehow. So if one vet is always less expensive than another you have cause to wonder where he is cutting corners.

I have been asked why I charge $25 for a rabies shot when the vet down the road charges $15. It is because the vaccine I use costs me $14 and the one he uses costs $2.10. I get an $11 markup and he gets a $12.90 markup. Yes, he saves you $11, but guess which vaccine is more likely to have a serious reaction.

And here is another hidden truth: "Almost all vets are wonderful people and good doctors, but most of the ones I know are terrible businessmen". They undercharge for some stuff and overcharge for other stuff and they often don't even know it.

Oh, and our cost structure for pharmaceuticals is exactly the same as human hospitals. Most of the time, the drugs are exactly the same although we may have to pay extra to get them compounded in suitable animal strengths. And vets rarely get big quantity discounts.



And here is my last hidden truth for today: A very big part of the reason vets are getting expensive is because people demand it. If I didn't offer ultrasound and in-house laboratory diagnostics, people would go elsewhere.

Understand. I don't mind paying 30% more or so for a one time prescription from a vet. It's convenient to get it right there. Awhile back one tried to charge me 300% over what it would cost at Walgreens. In that case, I had to tell him to either sell it to me more reasonably, let me fill it at walgreens, or lose me as a customer.

 

[JOhnH]

Understand. I don't mind paying 30% more or so for a one time prescription from a vet. It's convenient to get it right there. Awhile back one tried to charge me 300% over what it would cost at Walgreens. In that case, I had to tell him to either sell it to me more reasonably, let me fill it at walgreens, or lose me as a customer.

Companies like Walmart, Publix and some others (I'm not sure about Walgreens) sell certain items below cost, or even give them away for free. They know if you come in their store to get free antibiotics you will probably also pick up a few dozen other things. I often give clients the option of the convenience of buying them here or going there to get it free. about 75% buy it here.

And sometimes I will call 4 or 5 pharmacies to get a customer the best price and I often get price quotes for the same item that are orders of magnitudes apart. It is usually on the less common drugs where people have no idea what they should cost. Or possibly they have an expensive drug on the shelf that is about to expire and they have to eat it or sell it cheap. Some manufacturers don't give credit for some expired drugs.

And if you ever ask about getting an Rx to buy drugs elsewhere and they refuse, you should consider going elsewhere.

We just had our cost for some pharmaceuticals go up 900%. We passed HALF that increase on to some customers and they got livid. When they came back to buy it from us because the pharmacies passed on the whole increase, they never apologized for the language they used.

But those types of stories are rare. The huge majority of our clients trust us and while they may comment on price, they never argue because they know we are looking out for them and we will be there when they need us. And guess which clients get preferential treatment when they come up short and need extra time to pay.

 

[N801BH]

Just for reference.....

I called the other 4 vet operations in town today....

So to add apples to apples..... here is what I asked for....

I have a 7 lb cat,, I will schedule an appointment at your convienence, show up on time, place cat on exam table. you do your thing..... 10 minutes later, I roll my cat up in a towel I brought, put her back in my cat cage and leave ......

What will be the charges...

Vet 1 - 78.00

Vet2 - 66.00

Vet3 - 59.00

Vet4 - 88.00

All I need to do now is visit those 4 clinics, meet the staff and docs and see which one like and I will use from now on... Ya see, I am a VERY Loyal customer when I don't get screwed...

Ps... John, thanks for all the feedback on this matter....

I am curious though,, how much do vets pay for their medical malpractice insurance premium.... Is it as high a people doctors?

 

[JOhnH]

Just for reference.....

I called the other 4 vet operations in town today....

So to add apples to apples here is what I asked for....

I have a 7 lb cat,, I will schedule an appointment at your convienence, show up on time, place cat on exam table. you do your thing 10 minutes later, I roll my cat up in a towel I brought, put her back in my cat cage and leave ......

What will be the charges...

Vet 1 - 78.00

Vet2 - 66.00

Vet3 - 59.00

Vet4 - 88.00

All I need to do now is visit all those 4 clinics, meet the staff and docs and see which one I will use from now on... Ya see, I am a VERY Loyal customer when I don't get screwed...

Ps... John, thanks for all the feedback on this matter....

I am curious though,, how much do vets pay for their medical malpractice insurance premium.... Is it as high a people doctors?

Uh, no. malpractice insurance for vets is so low I don't even recall exactly what I pay. I think it is about $500 per year (That would be ~$1,500 for my three doctors). Perhaps one reason is that we don't commit malpractice as often! But seriously, it is because the laws consider pets as property and the liability claims are relatively miniscule compared to human doctors that might have to pay scores of thousands for trimming a fingernail too close.

 

[N801BH]

Uh, no. malpractice insurance for vets is so low I don't even recall exactly what I pay. I think it is about $500 per year (That would be ~$1,500 for my three doctors). Perhaps one reason is that we don't commit malpractice as often! But seriously, it is because the laws consider pets as property and the liability claims are relatively miniscule compared to human doctors that might have to pay scores of thousands for trimming a fingernail too close.

Thanks buddy for the answer....


Another thing I didn't know till this morning is...

A Doctor does not need to put down an animal,, any vet tech can.. In fact it appears like ANYONE can.....

I wonder why we don't see "put down kits" on Ebay for all to be able to buy ?

 

[JOhnH]

Did you know that the Federal Government could charge me with collusion and put me out of business if I call up my colleagues and ask them what they charge?

I have a computerized price schedule of well over a thousand items.
Things like office visit fees, vaccinations and flea medication are all market priced that most vets use to try to lure in the telephone shopper that asks those questions. Many people will go to the one with the cheapest exam price, then get hit with high lab fees (for example).

And most of our exams are 45 minutes. My $55 is one of the highest fees in the county but that is still less than an electrician charges. The guy down the road does a bang-up business offering 10 minute appointments for $30 and selling $2.00 worth of steroids for $30 instead of doing proper workups that may cost hundreds. He makes more money by working less, and his customers pay a lot less, but more of his patients die too early.

I think I just figured out what I am going to do when I retire. I might write a book on the business of veterinary medicine that is aimed at the consumer instead of the veterinarian.

Just for reference.....

I called the other 4 vet operations in town today....

So to add apples to apples..... here is what I asked for....

I have a 7 lb cat,, I will schedule an appointment at your convienence, show up on time, place cat on exam table. you do your thing..... 10 minutes later, I roll my cat up in a towel I brought, put her back in my cat cage and leave ......

What will be the charges...

Vet 1 - 78.00

Vet2 - 66.00

Vet3 - 59.00

Vet4 - 88.00

All I need to do now is visit those 4 clinics, meet the staff and docs and see which one lke and I will use from now on... Ya see, I am a VERY Loyal customer when I don't get screwed...

Ps... John, thanks for all the feedback on this matter....

I am curious though,, how much do vets pay for their medical malpractice insurance premium.... Is it as high a people doctors?

 

[Henning]

Possibly, but my philosophy is "The customer may be wrong, but you never win an argument with a customer". So I save my arguments for POA.

The customer is not given the opportunity to correct themselves if unaware.

 

[wby0nder]

You have my support totally for what it's worth. If my dog needed a kidney and I could successfully donate mine I would. Good luck

 

[Henning]

Uh, no. malpractice insurance for vets is so low I don't even recall exactly what I pay. I think it is about $500 per year (That would be ~$1,500 for my three doctors). Perhaps one reason is that we don't commit malpractice as often! But seriously, it is because the laws consider pets as property and the liability claims are relatively miniscule compared to human doctors that might have to pay scores of thousands for trimming a fingernail too close.

I know an equine vet, least valuable horse in her care is a quarter million, she pays a fair penny, she used ***** about it.