Suspicious crash

Dart

Final Approach
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iM a grandpa
If, as the media insinuates, it was on purpose, we sure don't need stuff like this happening.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/05/indiana.crash.ap/index.html

However, if it turns out to be accidental (or at least stupid) maybe a few more folks will realize how little damage light GA planes are capable of and ease up on the post 911 hsteria over all tha flys.
 
No. They won't realize that they aren't dangerous. This makes them look dangerous even if it did little damage. We might as well just scrap all our airplanes right now at this rate. Flying is not for everyone. Everyone can't be a pilot. Those that aren't meant to be better just not fly much because if they do they will get enough exposure to die.

I just can't believe all these stupid accidents. It's pathetic.

Solution: Teach people how to ACTUALLY fly and quit running into damn houses. Pilots are too damn scared to explore all their flight characteristics and bite the big one when they could have really used that knowledge.

You are one of these people if you are scared to land small airplanes with the stall warning blaring because it "feels funny". Now do something about it until it don't feel funny. After that we'll figure out what step two is.

End Rant
 
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eh Jesse, the dude crashed into his in laws house. They think it was intentional. I dont think teaching him how to actually fly woulda helped any. Someone intervening on suicidal tendencies, perhaps. Apparently he didnt get along with his in laws very well. All just speculation of course...
 
...so he murdered his daughter.

His soul will be consumed by everlasting torment, killing an innocent like that.

Lord, lift her up...
 
I have to say - the odds of hitting the one house on the approach to an airport (if it was even on the approach) that is owned by your in-laws seem small.

For that matter, the odds of hitting a house (as opposed to a street or yard) are pretty small. Any sane pilot would be aiming to AVOID the house.

Seems suspicious to me, and not a training issue as Jesse indicates.
 
I have to say - the odds of hitting the one house on the approach to an airport (if it was even on the approach) that is owned by your in-laws seem small.

For that matter, the odds of hitting a house (as opposed to a street or yard) are pretty small. Any sane pilot would be aiming to AVOID the house.

Seems suspicious to me, and not a training issue as Jesse indicates.


I didn't even bother to read this event. I didn't care.

I'm just sick of pilots doing stupid **** and getting on CNN.

Has anyone considered that maybe this idiot decided that it was a good idea to buzz his in laws house to maybe scare them? Maybe he didn't know what the hell he was doing. I find it hard to believe he did it intentionally and did it to kill his daughter.

If you want to kill them or destroy their house there are better ways. Most pilots are smart enough to think of a better way. Few people would take their daughter out with them. Way too many people assume the absolute worst about a person after something like this.

Read the NTSB reports. How many people mess up hitting something because they think they know how to fly low and they really don't? How many stupid reporters are there out there that dream up this kind of **** all day long because it makes a good story?

My guess:
  1. Take daughter flying
  2. Hey look Grandmas house
  3. Lets buzz it because that'll entertain my kid and it'll **** of grandma because I hate her
  4. Wow. I must not know how to fly because I just messed up my "buzz job" and killed myself crashing into her house.
That is what...10000x more likely than:
  1. I hate my inlaws
  2. My daugther should die
  3. Crashing an airplane into their house is the best way to kill them
  4. Dieing is fun.
It's a disgrace to say he did it intentionally just because. If you are going to buzz something you usually buzz something you know. You also might do it to **** the people off. But you usually don't do it to try to crash into it killing your daughter. Don't fall for the media's trap.

For all we know he came dragging in slow with full flaps like I see pilots do all the time when they "buzz" something and stalled it right into the house. See the Cirrus thread for my rant about that last week.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=159928#post159928

Maybe I'm just grumpy today.
 
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Jesse-
I hope you are only having a bad day, because you are sounding extremely cynical for a guy your age! Without even reading the meager details of the incident, you are ready to jump up and down and beat a drum for more training and what ever else you feel might be appropriate to these cases.

No doubt some pilots have gotten their certificates with marginal skills. No doubt some pilots will make bad decisions. This is not likely to change in the near future. But these incidents are still the exceptions to the rule, not the average (according to the Nall Reports). Your comments make it sound as if the majority of pilots are careless, under trained, and generally do not meet some standard you seem to have in your mind.

But let's also accept that the reason these incidents get so much press is BECAUSE they are so rare! With somewhere between 600K and 700K certificated pilots in the US, accidents in general are quite rare compared to other activities.

Today I had to drive to our head office at another airport to get to my aircraft, and then back again at the end of the day. Both directions were 60 miles of rush hour, right through the heart of downtown Houston! Causing my drive to be extended by well over an hour each way were the remnants of no less than 6 car accidents, ranging from fender benders to one car completely on its roof! (It was even in the HO express lane!) Granted Houston is about the 4th or 5th largest city in the US, with maybe a million vehicles traveling each day. (pure guess on that number)

They will get their press on the 10 o'clock news tonight, but being that car crashes are so comon place, not much time is devoted to them unless a serious injury or death is reported. On the other hand, airplane crashes seem to get an inordinate amount of air time/ press. Why? Because they seem to strike a morbid curiousity with the non-flying public. They are fascinated, intrigued, and scared all at the same time! And since 9/11, that fascination and fear has risen to all time highs.
But what I find even more interesting is the way we as pilots talk about them! Pilots tend to be just as harsh (maybe even more so) with regard to these incidents than the FAA or NTSB is!

But I will agree with you in the aspect that I find these events disturbing, frustrating, and disappointing. I applaud your concerns and desire to see positive changes enacted to further reduce these incidents. But a knee jerk reaction, rather than a well thought out process, can be very counter productive in the long run.

I feel extremely sorry for the family of, and for the little girl and her father. Even if he did crash intentionally, I'm sorry that someone reached a point so low in their life that they felt it necessary to commit such an act, and to involve an innocent child.
 
More knowledge would not have helped this accident. Keeping flying for the elite is a surefire way to remove the ability for any of us to fly. We have strong enough teaching measures as it is.
 
Jesse-
I hope you are only having a bad day, because you are sounding extremely cynical for a guy your age! Without even reading the meager details of the incident, you are ready to jump up and down and beat a drum for more training and what ever else you feel might be appropriate to these cases.

I didn't read the details. There aren't even details to read. There are people that know nothing about aviation speculating that someone decided it was a good idea to crash into a house because he didn't like his in laws taking his daughter out with him. I mean seriously people--Is that not jumping to conclusions?

No doubt some pilots have gotten their certificates with marginal skills. No doubt some pilots will make bad decisions. This is not likely to change in the near future. But these incidents are still the exceptions to the rule, not the average (according to the Nall Reports). Your comments make it sound as if the majority of pilots are careless, under trained, and generally do not meet some standard you seem to have in your mind.
Exception to what rule? Average to what? That makes no sense. Way too much of this happens. This is the second time GA made major news for smashing into a building in the not too distance past. That is too damn often. Are you saying that this is OK? The Cory Lindel thing was OK?

But let's also accept that the reason these incidents get so much press is BECAUSE they are so rare! With somewhere between 600K and 700K certificated pilots in the US, accidents in general are quite rare compared to other activities.
They get press coverage because people think airplane crashes are interesting. Airplane crashes sell. Take zero evidence and say that the airplane crash was intentional and he killed his daughter intentionally. That is what sells.

Today I had to drive to our head office at another airport to get to my aircraft, and then back again at the end of the day. Both directions were 60 miles of rush hour, right through the heart of downtown Houston! Causing my drive to be extended by well over an hour each way were the remnants of no less than 6 car accidents, ranging from fender benders to one car completely on its roof! (It was even in the HO express lane!) Granted Houston is about the 4th or 5th largest city in the US, with maybe a million vehicles traveling each day. (pure guess on that number)

They will get their press on the 10 o'clock news tonight, but being that car crashes are so comon place, not much time is devoted to them unless a serious injury or death is reported. On the other hand, airplane crashes seem to get an inordinate amount of air time/ press. Why? Because they seem to strike a morbid curiousity with the non-flying public. They are fascinated, intrigued, and scared all at the same time! And since 9/11, that fascination and fear has risen to all time highs.
But what I find even more interesting is the way we as pilots talk about them! Pilots tend to be just as harsh (maybe even more so) with regard to these incidents than the FAA or NTSB is!
I'm sorry but as a whole GA has a pretty crappy safety record in my opinion. You are more likely to be killed as an active GA pilot for a life time (I'm not talking Part 121 or Part 135) than you are as a licensed car driver your whole life.

But I will agree with you in the aspect that I find these events disturbing, frustrating, and disappointing. I applaud your concerns and desire to see positive changes enacted to further reduce these incidents. But a knee jerk reaction, rather than a well thought out process, can be very counter productive in the long run.
Knee jerk? What was so knee jerk about it. *WE* the pilots are sitting here buying the media's story with NO EVIDENCE and attacking one of our own. This deserved a "knee-jerk" response. I'm constantly bickering about the average pilot's inability to handle their airplane. It's reality. Stand out at a busy GA airport with a cross wind and watch airplanes land.

I feel extremely sorry for the family of, and for the little girl and her father. Even if he did crash intentionally, I'm sorry that someone reached a point so low in their life that they felt it necessary to commit such an act, and to involve an innocent child.

Very unlikely that he crashed intentionally. I'm not going to even entertain that idea unless he told someone before hand or wrote a suicide note or something solid. Until I hear this I'm not going to put down a fellow pilot that got killed by buying the stupid media / police department's B/S story.
 
More knowledge would not have helped this accident. Keeping flying for the elite is a surefire way to remove the ability for any of us to fly. We have strong enough teaching measures as it is.

You are saying that if this were an accident, which is most likely was, that training in airplane control at all airspeeds combined with learning when you can turn and when you can pull wouldn't have prevented this? I don't think so.
 
I think the training should be one of those things pilots should strive for, but it is not something we need to add to the private pilot curriculum. There are too few of us as it is with the current requirements, adding more would only make us more of a minority.

I care too much about flying to see us fall further from being able to fly.
 
Jesse-

You wrote, " *WE* the pilots are sitting here buying the media's story with NO EVIDENCE and attacking one of our own."

I did not jump to any conclusion about the motivations of this pilot. I merely suggested that "Even if he did crash intentionally...." Maybe there are others who have more information about this, who were not quoted, not interviewed, or whose information was only partly used in suggesting the intent of his actions. It is the reporters right to use the information available in the way he/she wishes... It's called "SPIN". What I read here was many people stating curiousities and suppositions about what might have happened, as well as expressions of sorrow that it did happen, for what ever reason. So please do not take liberties of claiming to speak for anyone other than yourself.

You wrote, "I'm sorry but as a whole GA has a pretty crappy safety record in my opinion. You are more likely to be killed as an active GA pilot for a life time (I'm not talking Part 121 or Part 135) than you are as a licensed car driver your whole life."


I respect your right to your opinion, but I think you are being a bit myopic in your interpretation of what I wrote. I was referring to a more general view of GA, and if you do read a Nall Report, as compared to any DOT fatality study, you will find the chances of being involved in, and dying in a car crash FAR, FAR exceed those of dying in a plane crash.

You think that citing two examples as being " too damned often"... is accurately stating the issue. I think you are overstating it.
I will not disagree that any crash is a tragedy. But again, I refer you to the most recent Nall Report. With years of data collected, General Aviation has been showing a trend toward fewer accidents and fewer fatalities. The reason given is improved education and training. Can it improve on this safety record even further? Of course it can. And the current training and awareness programs ARE showing positive results.

You are dealing in the anecdotal, not the statistical. If you want to provide a convincing argument, you had better back it up with statistics, something more than just your own personal beliefs or feelings. Those are worth nothing to others, in issues like this. Without any statistical evidence, your argument holds no significant weight.

You also wrote, "They get press coverage because people think airplane crashes are interesting. Airplane crashes sell. Take zero evidence and say that the airplane crash was intentional and he killed his daughter intentionally. That is what sells."

I specifically identified why I thought the press seems to cover these incidents. (I wrote,"On the other hand, airplane crashes seem to get an inordinate amount of air time/ press. Why? Because they seem to strike a morbid curiousity with the non-flying public. They are fascinated, intrigued, and scared all at the same time! And since 9/11, that fascination and fear has risen to all time highs." I think you and I are in agreement there, so what was your point in bringing this up?

You wrote, "I'm constantly bickering about the average pilot's inability to handle their airplane. It's reality. Stand out at a busy GA airport with a cross wind and watch airplanes land."

Are you not willing to let others learn the skills which you obviously enjoy? Are you so far above the "average" that you can not make a mistake, or a poor decision? How you answer these questions says much more about you as a pilot than all the plane handling skills of a Bob Hoover! So do not cast aspersions upon others abilities until you are beyond reproach yourself. At some point in your training, you were no better than those you now look upon with such disdain.
Perhaps that pilot who botched a x-wind landing you happened to see, will one day be flying a B777, an F-35, or maybe even the Shuttle (not likely, they are being phased out...), with skills beyond what you and I will ever possess! So do not be so quick to call out those you perceive to be inferior pilots. For like in any endeavor, there will always be those with lesser and greater skills than yourself.
 
I have to say, when I read this post last night, that I too thought it would end up being a buzz job gone wrong, as Jesse suspected.

Then I read on the news this morning that her Momma had reported her missing to police, and they were already in the process of looking for her and preparing an Amber alert when the crash call came in...

Not good. This is sure sounding intentional, and it's not the first time someone's used an airplane to take themselves and others out. No amount of training will fix that.
 
I respect your right to your opinion, but I think you are being a bit myopic in your interpretation of what I wrote. I was referring to a more general view of GA, and if you do read a Nall Report, as compared to any DOT fatality study, you will find the chances of being involved in, and dying in a car crash FAR, FAR exceed those of dying in a plane crash.
That is a common misconception that applies to the airlines. This does not apply to general aviation. We are not NEAR as safe as the airlines. Take look at this
http://www.meretrix.com/~harry/flying/notes/safetyvsdriving.html

You think that citing two examples as being " too damned often"... is accurately stating the issue. I think you are overstating it.
I will not disagree that any crash is a tragedy. But again, I refer you to the most recent Nall Report. With years of data collected, General Aviation has been showing a trend toward fewer accidents and fewer fatalities. The reason given is improved education and training. Can it improve on this safety record even further? Of course it can. And the current training and awareness programs ARE showing positive results.
Most of those statistics saying that safety has improved isn't really that great. Yeah, you can say accidents went down, but unless you can also prove exactly how many hours were flown those numbers mean little to nothing. I suspect over the years the numbers of hours flown has dropped due to increased regulation, fuel, and a host of other factors. Of course the FAA wants to say safety has gotten better--it makes their administration look good.

You are dealing in the anecdotal, not the statistical. If you want to provide a convincing argument, you had better back it up with statistics, something more than just your own personal beliefs or feelings. Those are worth nothing to others, in issues like this. Without any statistical evidence, your argument holds no significant weight.
Look at the Nall report you speak of so much. Look at the DOT. Compare them. The site I listed above does a good job of it and many other articles do the same thing.
http://www.meretrix.com/~harry/flying/notes/safetyvsdriving.html


Are you not willing to let others learn the skills which you obviously enjoy? Are you so far above the "average" that you can not make a mistake, or a poor decision? How you answer these questions says much more about you as a pilot than all the plane handling skills of a Bob Hoover! So do not cast aspersions upon others abilities until you are beyond reproach yourself. At some point in your training, you were no better than those you now look upon with such disdain.
I do not look upon these pilots with disdain. I look upon them and just try to figure out why the hell they are almost crashing everytime they touchdown. At first I think maybe they are a student--but that's usually not the case. Hell the students usually do a better job.

I am nowhere near perfect. I mess up. I also am willing to admit when I suck and I'm willing to fix it. I record most of my flying. I rip myself apart constantly. I send videos to people that I know will respond that I can't fly. I also keep improving.

Perhaps that pilot who botched a x-wind landing you happened to see, will one day be flying a B777, an F-35, or maybe even the Shuttle (not likely, they are being phased out...), with skills beyond what you and I will ever possess! So do not be so quick to call out those you perceive to be inferior pilots. For like in any endeavor, there will always be those with lesser and greater skills than yourself.

I'm not saying they are inferior. I'm saying that most of the landings on some of these days almost look like there are seconds remaining before death. That's not right--that makes it clear that there is a training issue in GA. That's the reality.

I don't lie to myself about general aviation safety. It is dangerous. These are real airplanes and these are not toys. If you mess up at the wrong moment you will die. Getting killed in general aviation is a very real threat. I am more safe statistically driving in my car. If I make the wrong choice I will die. I keep this attitude when I fly. I find it much better than a false sense of safety that many people develop.

I look at aviation with a neutral view. I look at myself as a pilot with a neutral view and I look at everyone else this way. I do not say that I am better than anyone. I like to figure out why we have these problems because the first guy that figures out the right answer to them is going to have a very nice aviation business racking in lots of money. This is what Troy Martin is trying to do and his chance of succeeding is very slim. I also know of several different "stick & rudder" guys that are trying to do the same thing. There is a good chance training could change drastically in the future.

You are new to this forum. This same debate/conversation has went on when I first joined and almost every time someone new joins the forum. People either eventually started to figure out I'm not as big of an ass as it seems or they started to figure out that arguing with me is pointless. I'm not sure which one. But I just refuse to believe that safety cannot improve drastically.
 
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This is only an anecdote, not statistics...

I've been driving a long time and just about everyone I know, apart from under-16s, drives. I know no one personally who has died in a car accident, in that amount of time. (knock on wood it never happens!)

I've only been in the flying community a few years now and I already know one person personally who has died.

I thought this was a buzz gone bad - I hope it still is (not that it matters, they are both dead).
 
I have to say, when I read this post last night, that I too thought it would end up being a buzz job gone wrong, as Jesse suspected.

Then I read on the news this morning that her Momma had reported her missing to police, and they were already in the process of looking for her and preparing an Amber alert when the crash call came in...

Not good. This is sure sounding intentional, and it's not the first time someone's used an airplane to take themselves and others out. No amount of training will fix that.

How long before they track down some mental disorder in his past and lock down Class 3 medicals? Says the FAA signed him off as a student pilot, so I'm taking that to say that he had a Class 3/Student Cert combo medical.[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
 
This is only an anecdote, not statistics...

I've been driving a long time and just about everyone I know, apart from under-16s, drives. I know no one personally who has died in a car accident, in that amount of time. (knock on wood it never happens!)

I've only been in the flying community a few years now and I already know one person personally who has died.

I thought this was a buzz gone bad - I hope it still is (not that it matters, they are both dead).

Flying 3, Motorcycling 2, Cycling 1, Lobstering 2, Climbing 0.

-Andrew
not keeping score, but merely noting that most of my hobbies involve some element of risk
 
Flying 3, Motorcycling 2, Cycling 1, Lobstering 2, Climbing 0.

-Andrew
not keeping score, but merely noting that most of my hobbies involve some element of risk

The only person who I've known that has died was a freak incident. Aneurysm while showering one morning. :/
 
Jesse-

That GA safety can be improved upon is a fact which can not be argued! I whole heartedly believe it can be. And technology, training programs and thoughtful, mature piloting will have a hand in that.

But this incident does not seem to fit within this mold. What would more training have done for this poor man? Allowed him to hit the house more directly, rather than right at the ground? There seem to be many unanswered questions. We will have to let the police and the NTSB devine what happened to these unfortunate people.

You claim to be 'neutral' about aviation. Yet you write with strong emotion, and even stronger opinions. At times, it almost reads as if you are a zealot, taking fairly vocal, if not extreme, positions on certain topics! But thats ok! None of us are neutral about aviation, for if we were, we would not be involved in this incredible activity!

I read through the data at the link you provided. The author does make some interesting comparisons, and a compelling case. But one thing I was unsure about, was whether he had also limited his facts to those incidents involving ONLY GA aircraft under 12,500#, as the Nall Report does. But anecdotally- I still feel safer in an aircraft, than I do driving through Houston at any time! At least in an airplane, I have less likelihood of someone else hitting me!

Is it pointless to argue with you? You are probably right. Attempting to influence your opinions, made from your vast years of experience, would be akin to trying to convert the Taliban leadership to become Christians. It is just not worth the effort, with no real benefit. That is why people give up on you. Not because you are right.

And only you can convince people of how big an ass you either are or are not.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming......
 
The only person who I've known that has died was a freak incident. Aneurysm while showering one morning. :/
You've only known one person who has died? Wow.

If we're talking about all reasons for death I'd say the huge majority of people I know who have died did so for some kind of medical reason, mostly heart attack and cancer. So you might as well go out an pursue your activity of choice because it's going to happen one way or another. But be careful. I think there is a fine line between having a lot of propaganda saying flying is inherently safe in order to encourage people to pursue it, and the reality that you can get yourself into a lot of trouble pretty quick if you don't respect the airplane and what you are doing.

Flying is inherently dangerous. We like to gloss that over with clever rhetoric and comforting statistics, but these facts remain: gravity is constant and powerful, and speed kills. In combination, they are particularly destructive.
Dan Manningham, 'Business and Commercial Aviation' magazine
 
You've only known one person who has died? Wow.

If we're talking about all reasons for death I'd say the huge majority of people I know who have died did so for some kind of medical reason, mostly heart attack and cancer. So you might as well go out an pursue your activity of choice because it's going to happen one way or another. But be careful. I think there is a fine line between having a lot of propaganda saying flying is inherently safe in order to encourage people to pursue it, and the reality that you can get yourself into a lot of trouble pretty quick if you don't respect the airplane and what you are doing.

Allow me to clarify. I've lost all but one of my natural grandparents. I was really just speaking of friends and individuals who "passed before their time". If that makes sense...
 
If that makes sense...
It does. I guess. I'm thinking back to when I was your age and have decided that either you are very lucky, I was unlucky, or people just aren't dying at the rate they did back in the Dark Ages. :dunno:

Must be the improved medicine and safety regulations. :dunno: :)
 
That GA safety can be improved upon is a fact which can not be argued! I whole heartedly believe it can be. And technology, training programs and thoughtful, mature piloting will have a hand in that.
Agreed.

But this incident does not seem to fit within this mold. What would more training have done for this poor man? Allowed him to hit the house more directly, rather than right at the ground? There seem to be many unanswered questions. We will have to let the police and the NTSB devine what happened to these unfortunate people.
If it was an accident it fits into this mold. Until there is solid evidence otherwise I will believe it is an accident.

You claim to be 'neutral' about aviation. Yet you write with strong emotion, and even stronger opinions. At times, it almost reads as if you are a zealot, taking fairly vocal, if not extreme, positions on certain topics! But thats ok! None of us are neutral about aviation, for if we were, we would not be involved in this incredible activity!
I'm neutral in the sense that I look at everything I do and everything everyone else does and attempt to figure out why. I also try to figure out which is the best way. Of course in the end each pilot needs to decide. Because when something goes wrong in an airplane you better have a response and quick.

I read through the data at the link you provided. The author does make some interesting comparisons, and a compelling case. But one thing I was unsure about, was whether he had also limited his facts to those incidents involving ONLY GA aircraft under 12,500#, as the Nall Report does. But anecdotally- I still feel safer in an aircraft, than I do driving through Houston at any time! At least in an airplane, I have less likelihood of someone else hitting me!
He used the Nall Report for his statistics so if the Nall report only talks about airplanes under 12,500 lbs that is what his statistics will be based on. I doubt I'll ever fly an airplane over 12,500 lbs so I'm not too concerned about how to fly them. A lot of flight schools teach you to fly small airplanes like a jet. This makes sense I guess if you're going to be in a jet as soon as you get your license but I just don't see that happening very often.

Is it pointless to argue with you? You are probably right. Attempting to influence your opinions, made from your vast years of experience, would be akin to trying to convert the Taliban leadership to become Christians. It is just not worth the effort, with no real benefit. That is why people give up on you. Not because you are right.
It's not pointless to "argue" with me. Nor am I always right. I do change my opinion and take into consideration what everyone says. Some people are capable of having discussions like this and others are not. There are many people on this forum whom I have a LOT of respect for. We don't always agree but we are capable of having a discussion without taking it personal. Some people just can't do that.

And only you can convince people of how big an ass you either are or are not.
I could careless if someone thinks I'm an ass. Those people that think I'm an ass and think I am always wrong because of this or that reason are the people that have never met me, never flown with me, and never actually read what I said other than looking at my picture and feeling offended that I have an opinion and stick to it. I guess that's not allowed until you get gray hair. But I do have some gray hair so maybe people will take that into consideration if I take a picture...hmm.

In the end a discussion between people with one person actually inputting and the other person just saying they are wrong with no actual reason as to why will never get anywhere. It happens all to often sometimes. I don't post anything more in a thread unless I can provide something to actually SUPPORT my side.
 
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If you count only deaths not due to cancer or infectious illness or old age:

Suicide 1, Flying 2

Not even a car accident. I just don't know many who have died young.
 
The father called the mother of their daughter and said "I've got her; you won't be able to get her".

Still think it was an accident, Jesse?

AP Story
 
If you count only deaths not due to cancer or infectious illness or old age:

Suicide 1, Flying 2

Not even a car accident. I just don't know many who have died young.

I didn't count those who died beyond 60; nor those in my "relative" age group who died of illness.

Man, I know a lot of dead people.

-Andrew
 
The father called the mother of their daughter and said "I've got her; you won't be able to get her".

Still think it was an accident, Jesse?

AP Story

We might never know. Does it even matter? How do you know what was going through that man's head that day? How do you know how their relationship really was. I have saw and experienced all throughout my life what crazy women will say when it comes to their children.

For all we know he was fully intending on flying somewhere with her and not coming back. He might have just been trying to scare them. Either way he wasn't qualified to be flying around in an airplane with his daughter.

I look at this and I can't help but think it's wrong to assume the worst. Everyone can assume what they want. Two people are dead. That's all there is two it.

I can look back at my life. I can see this same situation occurring to me. I can see myself as a kid flying around with my dad and buzzing houses was common. Most of the time it was someone that we knew and sometimes it was done just to annoy them. Did my parents always get along? Nah. Is it possible that my mom or family could have invented some crazy story after the crash? Sure. This is why I look at this with an open mind.

In the end it does not matter what happened. This is a sad day for many including general aviation.
 
...His soul will be consumed by everlasting torment, killing an innocent like that.

We can only hope. Either coward, couldn't go out alone, or so filled with hate and spite for his ex, that he took the only thing she loved.

And giving GA a black eye by doing it in an airplane.

Lord, lift her up...

Amen.
 
I can honestly say I've known more people personally that have died in cars than in aircraft.

BUT...

Those two populations are hugely different. I have seen nothing statistically relevant posted in this thread.

Plus, if the big sky theory applied to automobiles, it would be much safer. :)
 
I can honestly say I've known more people personally that have died in cars than in aircraft.

BUT...

Those two populations are hugely different. I have seen nothing statistically relevant posted in this thread.

Plus, if the big sky theory applied to automobiles, it would be much safer. :)

Nall Report:
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/nall.html

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration:
http://nhtsa.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/...010VgnVCM1000002c567798RCRD&viewType=standard

Information from both of those put into perspective:
http://www.meretrix.com/~harry/flying/notes/safetyvsdriving.html
 
Jesse - you are making the same mistake everyone makes when saying that GA is actually more dangerous:

Near every time one car touches another, it is reported as an accident for insurance purposes.

There are MANY, MANY instances where airplanes "crash" (ie, land off airport unintentionally) where it is not considered an accident.

If you include those in the reports, I suspect we'd find GA thousands of times safer than automobiles.
 
Jesse - you are making the same mistake everyone makes when saying that GA is actually more dangerous:

Near every time one car touches another, it is reported as an accident for insurance purposes.

There are MANY, MANY instances where airplanes "crash" (ie, land off airport unintentionally) where it is not considered an accident.

If you include those in the reports, I suspect we'd find GA thousands of times safer than automobiles.

No I'm not. I'm comparing fatalities. Did you actually read what I posted before you assumed that I was making such a mistake?

There are also MANY more car accidents gone unreported than aviation accidents gone unreported. But we're not talking about things getting bent. We're talking about people getting killed.
 
No I'm not. I'm comparing fatalities. Did you actually read what I posted before you assumed that I was making such a mistake?

There are also MANY more car accidents gone unreported than aviation accidents gone unreported. But we're not talking about things getting bent. We're talking about people getting killed.

Jesse - chill.

I am talking fatalities too, Jesse. Death per accident. Accident is defined differently between the two.

Airplanes: Gear up? Not an accident. Off field landing? Not an accident.

Car: Touch bumpers, with no visible damage? Accident. Any number of other, non-serious events? Accident.

So lets say you have 20 deaths per every 100 accidents for aviation. That's 1 in 5. Add in the other "accidents" and you might have 20 deaths per every 1000 accidents for avitation. Suddenly, that's 1 in 50. Much better. And that is my point.

Edit: If we could determine how many safe off field landings happen per year, I think we could have a more accurate understanding of which is more dangerous, flying or driving.
 
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I'm saying that most of the landings on some of these days almost look like there are seconds remaining before death. That's not right--that makes it clear that there is a training issue in GA. That's the reality.

.

Not really.
At that point it is a matter of currency, proficiency and judgement.
 
Jesse - chill.

I am talking fatalities too, Jesse. Death per accident. Accident is defined differently between the two.

Airplanes: Gear up? Not an accident. Off field landing? Not an accident.

Car: Touch bumpers, with no visible damage? Accident. Any number of other, non-serious events? Accident.

So lets say you have 20 deaths per every 100 accidents for aviation. That's 1 in 5. Add in the other "accidents" and you might have 20 deaths per every 1000 accidents for avitation. Suddenly, that's 1 in 50. Much better. And that is my point.

Edit: If we could determine how many safe off field landings happen per year, I think we could have a more accurate understanding of which is more dangerous, flying or driving.


Chill about what? I'm just saying that you are assuming that I am doing something I am not. The statistics I posted shows it in several different angles. Death per accident is a worthless number. It means nothing. I'm more interested in death per hour and my chance of getting killed during my lifetime.

There is one fatalty for every 50,761 hours of GA flying. I currently fly 120 hours per year and if I continue to fly at this rate I will fly a measly 5,520 hours by the time I hit 65 years old. Most likely my flying will increase as the years go by.

So that means statistically I have a 1 in 9 chance of getting killed by an airplane in my life. That is way too high for me to accept. So I don't accept that. I don't accept the minimum in aviation and I continue to get better. I'm going to do my damnest to make sure that I'm not the one guy out of nine that dies.

1 in 9 people do not die in cars.

Of course statistics are just that, statistics, but it does help you see the real risk.
 
Chill about what? I'm just saying that you are assuming that I am doing something I am not. The statistics I posted shows it in several different angles. Death per accident is a worthless number. It means nothing. I'm more interested in death per hour and my chance of getting killed during my lifetime.

There is one fatalty for every 50,761 hours of GA flying. I currently fly 120 hours per year and if I continue to fly at this rate I will fly a measly 5,520 hours by the time I hit 65 years old. Most likely my flying will increase as the years go by.

So that means statistically I have a 1 in 9 chance of getting killed by an airplane in my life. That is way too high for me to accept. So I don't accept that. I don't accept the minimum in aviation and I continue to get better. I'm going to do my damnest to make sure that I'm not the one guy out of nine that dies.

1 in 9 people do not die in cars.

Of course statistics are just that, statistics, but it does help you see the real risk.



I see where you're coming from, believe me, I do, but that statistic - 1 in 9, is not really accurate. It neglects outside forces, like your pilot skills and your ability to avoid accident situations (it also includes passenger deaths).

That stat is like the one that says that ever 9 minutes someone dies from smoking. I don't honestly think that in 9 minutes, I could die because I smoke.

Any time you take a really large number in a statistic and try to apply it downwards in small quantities, it gets skewed. We could have 12 people die tomorrow, and not another one for like 2 years, and then another 12 that year. Break it in an average, and it appears that people died every year. Plus - how many of those fatalities occured in the same plane? A 4 place plane carrying 4 people crashes and everyone dies, that's 4 fatalities in a situation where it could have been 1 or it could have been 6.

But I understand where you're coming from, and your attitude is commendable, striving to improve safety comes from within. Push for more rules to enforce it, and there will be fewer pilots and we'll eventually have no voice, versus having little voice.
 
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