Good Value Planes?

[EagleKnievel]

Hey everyone, I'm ambrose and Im student pilot. (Going to solo in about a week if the weather clears.)

Enough about me though, I want to know more about planes. Smaller, and cheaper ones in particular. Not ultralights, but something like a piper cherokee. I actually found one for sale down the road, about an hour away I'll include a link. Anyway, I guess I mostly would like advice on shopping for a plane. This one for instance, is probably cheap because it's getting close to needing an overhaul, but I'm not a mechanic or pro pilot. Just a 20 year old with a couple grand saved up over the year who's wanted to be a pilot since he was five. Anyway, that's enough rambling... Let me know what you guys think, any advice would be really appreciated! Thanks.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...e+Piston/1971/Piper/Cherokee+140/1778764.html

 

[James331]

2100SMOH!

Id keep looking

 

[Seanaldinho]

2100SMOH!

Id keep looking

Hey everyone, I'm ambrose and Im student pilot. (Going to xolo in about a week if the weather clears.)

Enough about me though, I want to know more about planes. Smaller, and cheaper ones in particular. Not ultralights, but something like a piper cherokee. I actually found one for sale down the road, about an hour away I'll include a link. Anyway, I guess I mostly would like advice on shopping for a plane. This one for instance, is probably cheap because it's getting close to needing an overhaul, but I'm not a mechanic or pro pilot. Just a 20 year old with a couple grand saved up over the year who's wanted to be a pilot since he was five. Anyway, that's enough rambling... Let me know what you guys think, any advice would be really appreciated! Thanks.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...e+Piston/1971/Piper/Cherokee+140/1778764.html

2100SMOH means 2100 since major overhaul in case you didn't know
Most engines specify an overhaul should be done every 2000 hours. Many engines run past this with no problems whatsoever but you need to budget accordingly. Im not that current but if I recall ~20 grand is necessary for an overhaul.

 

[brien23]

If your new to the game look for someone who has been around the block. Buying a plane with little of no knowledge is asking for trouble. You should have no problem finding someone who knows the game and can guide you.

 

[Jim Logajan]

This one for instance, is probably cheap because it's getting close to needing an overhaul

From an operational safety aspects, I don't believe it is possible to tell whether it "needs" an overhaul based only on number of hours since last overhaul. From a market price perspective it may "need" one at the price being asked - or not.

Cost to overhaul an O-320 might be judged by several firms that have online price lists, such as:
http://www.coronaengines.com/Engine-Overhaul
http://www.heartoftexasaircraftengines.com/NO_SURPRISE_PRICING.html
http://www.dongeorgeaircraft.com/lycoming.htm

So budget ~$16,000. Now go look for other Cherokee 140s with similar avionics but low engine hours. Subtract $16k from those asking prices and you should get a number that few sellers will accept, but should serve as a starting point.

Keep in mind that you could probably safely fly the plane you are looking at for several more years without "needing" an overhaul.

 

[brian]]

First, read the other thread on how much everyone is spending / budgeting for flying. If you are renting, you can bail at any time. If you own the airplane, then you are on the hook once a year (min) form mx...

As they say, it's a lifestyle...

 

[Henning]

It's kinda an oxymoron lol. What are your aspirations for flying? You want to fly for a career or for fun?

 

[frfly172]

Airplane is high time,the mechanic on the next annual may not pass the airplane because of the engine hours. Talk to a few owners,get a better idea of what's available,at a fair price. Shop around ,if you want to own.

 

[Henning]

Airplane is high time,the mechanic on the next annual may not pass the airplane because of the engine hours. Talk to a few owners,get a better idea of what's available,at a fair price. Shop around ,if you want to own.

The mechanic may fail it on condition, not hours though.

 

[James331]

Long and short, you can find one with less than half the hours for around the same price if you look.

 

[diabolical]

I thought that I recognized the plane. Owned by a former co-worker of mine who I got back into flying about 5 years ago. He retired and moved away from this area a little while back. I'll try to find out what I can for you about why he's selling but I would imagine that his mission changed through retirement. I don't know anything about the plane's current condition but I would trust the owner's character more than almost anyone I know. He's not the type to take advantage of anyone so he can be trusted to give you the straight scoop.

Like others have already said in this post make sure of what your mission is and make sure that whichever plane you buy is the right one for you. It could be a very affordable plane for you but with the hours you may be facing a major overhaul sooner than you might who another airplane. That's not necessarily a bad thing if you plan on keeping the plane for a good while and want to know exactLy the condition of your powerplant. I think he flew out of Henning's airport so he might recognize the plane. Also, even if you were to get another example of the same airplane with only half the hours you might still end up facing a major overhaul depending on how that plane was operated. I do know when he first bought it he put quite a bit of time into getting it right and is a very particular owner!
Good luck with your search and welcome to POA.
gene

 

[Henning]

If it's close to you, you may be able to work out a deal with him to rent it at a low price to keep it flying. Nothing worse on a plane, especially one with a Lycoming, than to sit.

 

[EagleKnievel]

I thought that I recognized the plane. Owned by a former co-worker of mine who I got back into flying about 5 years ago. He retired and moved away from this area a little while back. I'll try to find out what I can for you about why he's selling but I would imagine that his mission changed through retirement.

I would really appreciate that. I think the biggest thing that caught me was the fact that it seems to be the only single for sale within driving distance. Not to mention I always like the way low wings looked. I'd love to hear about it if you get into contact with him, that'd make my week for sure. Keep me in the loop!

 

[EagleKnievel]

If it's close to you, you may be able to work out a deal with him to rent it at a low price to keep it flying. Nothing worse on a plane, especially one with a Lycoming, than to sit.

That wouldn't be a bad idea. I think I'll try to get in touch with him this weekend. Maybe go take a look if he's up for it.

 

[timrb]

The plane in the Trade-a-Plane ad may or may not be a good idea, but in general I have found my Cherokee 140 to be a good value. That is, for a pilot who doesn't care if he goes fast. Simple, easy to fly. Counting hangar, maintenance, insurance, fuel, etc., I probably spend 500-600 bucks a month to fly 50-ish hours a year.

Tim

 

[EagleKnievel]

The plane in the Trade-a-Plane ad may or may not be a good idea, but in general I have found my Cherokee 140 to be a good value. That is, for a pilot who doesn't care if he goes fast. Simple, easy to fly. Counting hangar, maintenance, insurance, fuel, etc., I probably spend 500-600 bucks a month to fly 50-ish hours a year.

Tim

That's good to hear. Speed and payload aren't too big of a concern for me seeing as most the cargo will be the woman and the dog. Plus it probably beats rental rates for time building... I'm paying $1200 monthly and all I have to show for it is some Ink in my logbook...

 

[diabolical]

Hey Ambrose,
Talked with the owner this evening and found out why he was selling. He's already bought a Piper Arrow IV to gain some speed and a glass cockpit so he no longer needs the Cherokee. The airplane has been well maintained and hangared so it's in good shape. The main considerations for you is like I said before, knowing what your mission will be and which airplane best meets your needs. This will be a good airplane and good deal for the right person and that person may well be you. With buying an airplane you need to recognize what your overall costs will be and what you can afford and still enjoy flying. For some people owning is well worth the additional cost for the ease in scheduling and knowing that you were the last person to fly it and that she's still setup the way you want. For others, renting or a partnership may keep the cost factor more reasonable and allow more flight time. Those are decisions which will require a bit of research and there are a lot of pilots in this forums who can/will offer their opinions of every possible side to this issue.
Good luck with the choice and like I said:If you're interested in this plane you can trust the owner but make sure that what you choose is right for your situation! Nothing beats the freedom of having your own plane, but nothing takes the fun out of flying faster than having a negative $$$ to flying ratio.

Gene

 

[poadeleted21]

From an operational safety aspects, I don't believe it is possible to tell whether it "needs" an overhaul based only on number of hours since last overhaul. From a market price perspective it may "need" one at the price being asked - or not.

Cost to overhaul an O-320 might be judged by several firms that have online price lists, such as:
http://www.coronaengines.com/Engine-Overhaul
http://www.heartoftexasaircraftengines.com/NO_SURPRISE_PRICING.html
http://www.dongeorgeaircraft.com/lycoming.htm

So budget ~$16,000. Now go look for other Cherokee 140s with similar avionics but low engine hours. Subtract $16k from those asking prices and you should get a number that few sellers will accept, but should serve as a starting point.

Keep in mind that you could probably safely fly the plane you are looking at for several more years without "needing" an overhaul.

As a new buyer, I'd recommend he take the SMOH number at face value. i.e. it's 2100 SMOH and needs a new engine. it "MIGHT" fly another 2000 hours until it "NEEDS" a rebuild but as a fresh buyer, I wouldn't even suggest that he attempt to make that determination…. Just assume that it needs a new engine…that's what the market will do.

 

[Jim Logajan]

As a new buyer, I'd recommend he take the SMOH number at face value. i.e. it's 2100 SMOH and needs a new engine. it "MIGHT" fly another 2000 hours until it "NEEDS" a rebuild but as a fresh buyer, I wouldn't even suggest that he attempt to make that determination…. Just assume that it needs a new engine…that's what the market will do.

Let's assume that to be the case. The question is whether the asking price has taken into account the cost to overhaul, relative to other asking prices. My own way (others will have their own methods) to get a SWAG on this was to plug the current asking prices in for all the Cherokee 140s in TAP and Controller that have a number - disregarding avionics, hours, etc. I got:

Controller: $27.3k mean, $8.1k std dev.
TAP: $25.9k mean, $5.4k std dev.

Since an overhaul should put the aircraft at least 1 std dev in value above the mean, the new asking value would be between 31.3k and 35.4k. Subtract off $16k and asking price without the overhaul should be between $19.4k and $15.3k.

Crude, I know, but the asking price looks plausible based on that math. Offer, obviously, is another story....

 

[TUPilot]

As a new buyer, I'd recommend he take the SMOH number at face value. i.e. it's 2100 SMOH and needs a new engine. it "MIGHT" fly another 2000 hours until it "NEEDS" a rebuild but as a fresh buyer, I wouldn't even suggest that he attempt to make that determination…. Just assume that it needs a new engine…that's what the market will do.

I'd agree with that. There are a lot of factors determining when an engine needs to be overhauled, both objective (engine compressions, metal in oil) and subjective (how many more hours do you feel comfortable putting on it compared to what the folks that build it say you should).

Hopefully you can make that engine last a long time, but if you can't swing an extra 15k to 20k for an overhaul at any time you may want to pass on this plane. Of course, any engine could end up needing major work at any time, but generally low and mid time engines are less likely to have four and five digit issues.

Also, seeing as it is an FL airplane I'd suggest checking it out well for corrosion. Even well intentioned owners who take steps to avoid corrosion have potentially costly issues with the aircraft. Different mechanics and FAA regional staff look at things differently, so be sure to get a fresh set of eyes on it!

 

[Jim Logajan]

As a new buyer, I'd recommend he take the SMOH number at face value. i.e. it's 2100 SMOH and needs a new engine. it "MIGHT" fly another 2000 hours until it "NEEDS" a rebuild but as a fresh buyer, I wouldn't even suggest that he attempt to make that determination…. Just assume that it needs a new engine…that's what the market will do.

I'd agree with that. There are a lot of factors determining when an engine needs to be overhauled, both objective (engine compressions, metal in oil) and subjective (how many more hours do you feel comfortable putting on it compared to what the folks that build it say you should).

Hopefully you can make that engine last a long time, but if you can't swing an extra 15k to 20k for an overhaul at any time you may want to pass on this plane. Of course, any engine could end up needing major work at any time, but generally low and mid time engines are less likely to have four and five digit issues.

Also, seeing as it is an FL airplane I'd suggest checking it out well for corrosion. Even well intentioned owners who take steps to avoid corrosion have potentially costly issues with the aircraft. Different mechanics and FAA regional staff look at things differently, so be sure to get a fresh set of eyes on it!

Take a look at the table labeled "Accident Totals (Hours Since Overhaul)" in this article:

http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_45_how_risky_is_going_past_tbo_195241-1.html

The statistical analysis there suggests that anyone who proposes an overhaul of a perfectly working engine is dramatically increasing, not dramatically decreasing, the probability that the person taking said advice will suffer an engine failure.

 

[Henning]

As a new buyer, I'd recommend he take the SMOH number at face value. i.e. it's 2100 SMOH and needs a new engine. it "MIGHT" fly another 2000 hours until it "NEEDS" a rebuild but as a fresh buyer, I wouldn't even suggest that he attempt to make that determination…. Just assume that it needs a new engine…that's what the market will do.

Yep, buy it as a run out, understand that at any moment it may eat $10k to keep running (rarely is it necessary to "overhaul" an engine, just fix what's broke, rarely does that cost more than $10k on an O-320) and keep running it on condition monitoring it with oil analysis.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

Should we be looking at median and IQR?

(Sorry, just finished Statistics I)

Let's assume that to be the case. The question is whether the asking price has taken into account the cost to overhaul, relative to other asking prices. My own way (others will have their own methods) to get a SWAG on this was to plug the current asking prices in for all the Cherokee 140s in TAP and Controller that have a number - disregarding avionics, hours, etc. I got:

Controller: $27.3k mean, $8.1k std dev.
TAP: $25.9k mean, $5.4k std dev.

Since an overhaul should put the aircraft at least 1 std dev in value above the mean, the new asking value would be between 31.3k and 35.4k. Subtract off $16k and asking price without the overhaul should be between $19.4k and $15.3k.

Crude, I know, but the asking price looks plausible based on that math. Offer, obviously, is another story....

 

[jonnyjetprop]

The key point that you need to think as a renter is can you afford $20,000 to overhaul the engine, if required, at the drop of the hat.

Here's my fear. You get the plane. I'll assume that you'll be borrowing some of the money to buy it. It then needs an engine. A bank won't leand you enough money for the engine, because you already have a note on the plane. Now, if you paid cash for the plane, you could get a loan for the overhaul, if/when required. You can get a loan to buy the plane, because you want to keep the 20K working for you until you need the overhaul. Both of these situations are good.

There's a good mechanic out of Lake City that seems to be well thought of on www.piperforums.com for a pre buy, if it goes that far.

 

[EagleKnievel]

The airplane has been well maintained and hangared so it's in good shape. The main considerations for you is like I said before, knowing what your mission will be and which airplane best meets your needs. This will be a good airplane and good deal for the right person and that person may well be you.

Hey Gene, I really appreciate it. I talked to the owner as well and he definitely sounds like he knows what he's doing and took good care of it. I might take a look inside this weekend. Thanks Gene.

 

[EagleKnievel]

Bart, Jim, TUpilot, Henning, and John. Thanks a lot for the advice. You definitely gave me a lot to think about. I was planing on a 1/3 down payment and financing the rest, but I think maybe I should pocket a wee bit more if maintenance may be an issue later down the road. The thought of owning a grounded plane would kill me, especially if it's because it's my fault I cant afford the work. Im still going to take a look at it (it's an hour drive, why not?), but I'm in no rush to buy or anything. And rust is a big issue. I live about a mile from the beach and the air here can rust metal after a few days, its insane. Anyway, thanks guys. If you have more advice I'd love to hear it.

 

[Henning]

Do not finance a plane that is for recreational purposes.

 

[EagleKnievel]

Do not finance a plane that is for recreational purposes.

Yeah, maybe if the guy likes me enough, or if he's not in a rush for cash I could work out an rto deal. If he wants cash in hand asap, there's always more fish in the sea.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

If you have "2000 dollars saved" and this is your total savings, you cannot afford an airplane. Especially one with an engine that may throw a 7 at any moment. Your better off renting until you get a decent job, save at least fifty percent of the purchase price, then look for a clean light aircraft with good history and low engine time. Otherwise flying will not prove enjoyable and you'll be stuck with a dog.

 

[brian]]

If you have "2000 dollars saved" and this is your total savings, you cannot afford an airplane. Especially one with an engine that may throw a 7 at any moment. Your better off renting until you get a decent job, save at least fifty percent of the purchase price, then look for a clean light aircraft with good history and low engine time. Otherwise flying will not prove enjoyable and you'll be stuck with a dog.

Hate to say it, but this is the case. Jimmy is 100% on target here.

Be ready for a good 5-10K (maybe more) annual right out the gate. The first two years are typically when you find the most issues to deal with. (I'm in that boat right now.)

Airplanes are not like new cars - even if prices similarly. Think of it as a house of the same age. The older anything is, the more wear and neglect needs to be addressed... I though I had this figured out before purchasing mine, but it has been an eye opener since. (Just glad I didn't buy the biggest baddest bird I thought I could buy.)

Go slow.

 

[EagleKnievel]

Hate to say it, but this is the case. Jimmy is 100% on target here.

Be ready for a good 5-10K (maybe more) annual right out the gate. The first two years are typically when you find the most issues to deal with. (I'm in that boat right now.)

Airplanes are not like new cars - even if prices similarly. Think of it as a house of the same age. The older anything is, the more wear and neglect needs to be addressed... I though I had this figured out before purchasing mine, but it has been an eye opener since. (Just glad I didn't buy the biggest baddest bird I thought I could buy.)

Go slow.

I could save more and buy outright, if I wasnt spending $1200/mo renting. (time building is a killer) I just figure that it may be more cost efficient down the road, and it'd be nice to have a tangible asset as well. I only have $2000 cash, but after selling off some rec vehicles I don't use the total is probably looking at about $6500.

But I totally get where you're coming from, I just want to stress that affording the plane specifically isn't my concern. I could have it paid off within a couple paychecks. It's the maintenance, and you kind of hit the nail on the head with that. Sorry to hear that by the way, at least you learned from it.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I hate to be one to pile on here, but Brian's post is most definitely one that the OP should read and think about very intently. As a person nearing my Sunset years I can tell you that borrowing money to buy a boat, an airplane, an RV or any other unnecessary item in life, is a plan that will have consequences later in life. It is sort of a "pay me now, or pay me later" type thing.

I operated in the loan mode into my early thirties before having to get on track. Luckily I got on track in time to recover and get things lined up for my Sunset years.

Borrowing money for a home, or even a car, is something that most people have to do, but IMHO it is a bad plan to borrow money for other things, MOST ESPECIALLY, don't go in debt with credit cards.

In the case of borrowing for a plane, the only possible exception in my way of thinking, MIGHT be a young person who is focused on working through the training process with the goal of flying professionally. Even that scenario is fraught with risk and should be analyzed very closely and a game plan be carefully laid out.

I am not lecturing or passing judgment. I simply am trying to help the OP take a close look at his situation in hopes that he will take a long honest look at the situation.

Very best of luck and I apologize if I'm being too much of a party pooper.

 

[EagleKnievel]

I hate to be one to pile on here, but Brian's post is most definitely one that the OP should read and think about very intently. As a person nearing my Sunset years I can tell you that borrowing money to buy a boat, an airplane, an RV or any other unnecessary item in life, is a plan that will have consequences later in life. It is sort of a "pay me now, or pay me later" type thing.

I operated in the loan mode into my early thirties before having to get on track. Luckily I got on track in time to recover and get things lined up for my Sunset years.

Borrowing money for a home, or even a car, is something that most people have to do, but IMHO it is a bad plan to borrow money for other things, MOST ESPECIALLY, don't go in debt with credit cards.

In the case of borrowing for a plane, the only possible exception in my way of thinking, MIGHT be a young person who is focused on working through the training process with the goal of flying professionally. Even that scenario is fraught with risk and should be analyzed very closely and a game plan be carefully laid out.

I am not lecturing or passing judgment. I simply am trying to help the OP take a close look at his situation in hopes that he will take a long honest look at the situation.

Very best of luck and I apologize if I'm being too much of a party pooper.

Not at all (on the party pooper comment), and actually aviation has always been my idea of an awesome fallback career, or possibly my main motivation. I've always liked hearing other peoples opinions because they can make a world of difference and help me make better choices.

Also, totally agree with you on owing vs owning. I finally got my credit to where it needs to be, and I've never had to pay interest on my credit card because I zero it out before each statement. I guess the only difference though is I can chew down an extra couple hundred on a loan to have something now rather then later. But if theres a chance of things going south mechanically, I think I might just wait a couple months to buy outright. Or maybe talk to the owner if hes a good guy.

 

[Henning]

Yeah, maybe if the guy likes me enough, or if he's not in a rush for cash I could work out an rto deal. If he wants cash in hand asap, there's always more fish in the sea.

RTO would be good, it is a buyer's market at this point, but just remember, a bottom dollar plane may not be the best value, and if it is all you can afford, your ownership experience may be an expensive one.

These 'cheap' planes make the most sense for kids who want to fast track themselves into an airline seat ASAP. For that, one of these is a good deal as you can fly it 1500+ hrs through your college years, much of the time making a bit of money instructing other college students in it at a discount rate from the college program. You simultaneously enroll in the A&P courses not only gaining your A&P while at school, but also gaining access to the maint facilities and signatures for your own plane. When run a few hundred hours a year, I see O-320s double TBO in the training environment. The chances that it would get a kid through college and into the right seat of an airliner cheaper than the university flying program is quite high, plus it gives theme their own aviation business as a college job.

 

[EagleKnievel]

RTO would be good, it is a buyer's market at this point, but just remember, a bottom dollar plane may not be the best value, and if it is all you can afford, your ownership experience may be an expensive one.

These 'cheap' planes make the most sense for kids who want to fast track themselves into an airline seat ASAP. For that, one of these is a good deal as you can fly it 1500+ hrs through your college years, much of the time making a bit of money instructing other college students in it at a discount rate from the college program. You simultaneously enroll in the A&P courses not only gaining your A&P while at school, but also gaining access to the maint facilities and signatures for your own plane. When run a few hundred hours a year, I see O-320s double TBO in the training environment. The chances that it would get a kid through college and into the right seat of an airliner cheaper than the university flying program is quite high, plus it gives theme their own aviation business as a college job.

Mechanic, Flight Instructor, and Pilot? That would be quite the experience. You're not kidding about college flight programs either. Our college contracts a school for our flight training, so you'd think it'd be a little cheaper, but no. It's still costs your arm, leg, and first-born son.

 

[Henning]

Mechanic, Flight Instructor, and Pilot? That would be quite the experience. You're not kidding about college flight programs either. Our college contracts a school for our flight training, so you'd think it'd be a little cheaper, but no. It's still costs your arm, leg, and first-born son.

Yep, you get your entire career foundation all done at the same time as cost effectively as possible. A Twin is an even better deal to own as Multi time has a competitive advantage for a lot of positions, and the A&P opens a lot of doors in the utility/bush job markets as well as expanding income opportunities.