For a newbie? The practice and experience of interacting with ATC 'in the system'. Believe it or not, I know pilots who have more problems with the communications side of IFR than navigation.
When can you say you have the airport in sight?
- Thread starter vince
- Start date
For a newbie? The practice and experience of interacting with ATC 'in the system'. Believe it or not, I know pilots who have more problems with the communications side of IFR than navigation.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah, I know several people who file just to "practice being in the system" but that never made any sense to me - In the system, out of the system, they're two sets of rules and procedures but you have to know both.
So, I only file IFR if weather or operation dictates that is the best option.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I virtually always file for a trip beyond 100 nm because it's easier, I don't have to worry about SUA or lowering visibilities and ceilings, I have more altitude choices to avoid bumps and ice, and there's a safety advantage in terms of SAR.
Larry in TN
En-Route
It is to prevent the pilot from incorrectly assuming that he has been given an IFR clearance and can fly in less than VMC conditions on the approach.
JasonM
Pattern Altitude
I was flying into a "new to me" small airport inside the DC SFRA a few weeks ago and the tree line from my vantage point was keeping me from seeing the airport until I was less than a 1/2 mile or so from the field. It felt like I didn't see it until I was passing over it.
Prior to that about 8 miles out, Potomac asked me if I had the field in sight. "Negative", they asked again at 5 miles out. Without any good reply other than another negative, I just said "I'm close enough" and they gave me the "freq. change approved, etc. etc." I knew where it was due to the GPS and immediately made all my CTAF calls from 5 miles on in, but it was all blind until that last 1/2 mile. Of course this was all VFR with SFRA stuff, but I could see it being a problem if coming in IFR with a similar handoff.
Prior to that about 8 miles out, Potomac asked me if I had the field in sight. "Negative", they asked again at 5 miles out. Without any good reply other than another negative, I just said "I'm close enough" and they gave me the "freq. change approved, etc. etc." I knew where it was due to the GPS and immediately made all my CTAF calls from 5 miles on in, but it was all blind until that last 1/2 mile. Of course this was all VFR with SFRA stuff, but I could see it being a problem if coming in IFR with a similar handoff.
201Driver
Pre-Flight
I'm wondering if you are even a pilot?
If I am in VMC and have navigation to the airport, I used to say "affirmative" just to make things easier. The ATC guy gets rid of you if you say you see it and that makes him happy. I learned this by NOT saying "affirmative" but saying "not yet" and having the ATC guy get testy. Sometimes I think ATC is used to planes being higher up than me and able to see the airport better. Easier not to use ATC at all, but sometimes you have to. I never saw any negative effects from telling him I see it when I don't. Now if I was in IMC, or marginal VFR, I wouldn't say that because I might need that ATC guy to clear me into the clouds or something.
But that's just me.
Others do it differently.
Like my kids when they play "where's Waldo". Now THAT was different. They didn't do that at all, I guarantee you. When they saw Waldo, the said "there He is!"
But that's just me.
Others do it differently.
Like my kids when they play "where's Waldo". Now THAT was different. They didn't do that at all, I guarantee you. When they saw Waldo, the said "there He is!"
Last edited:
Jaybird180
Final Approach
What airport?
gkainz
Final Approach
"Oh CRAP! THERE it is!" (hopefully BEFORE keying the mic)
I just think Vince may not grasp what the controller may expect when a pilot asks for the ILS. Vince may assume the term used in that context means he is just going to follow the ILS in on final, whereas the approach controller will be expecting that the pilot requesting the ILS will be flying the entire approach, including all procedure turns, course headings and altitude requirements as set forth on the approach plate. A VFR only pilot with no IFR training may be completely oblivious to everything required of the pilot flying a particular ILS approach. When the controller vectors him to the initial approach fix and clears him for the ILS approach, and then the pilot just flies to the localizer and on in, the controller may be thinking, "WTF are you going!?!?" This is probably just a case Vince not knowing what he doesn't know.
JasonM
Pattern Altitude
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Ok. I've never been there.
Martymccasland
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2011
- Messages
- 205
- Display Name
Display name:
M.McCasland
My home field is a rather large Class C and after landing there hundreds of times, I still have a hard time picking it out at night from time to time -- or even during the day sometimes. Over the years, I've gotten to just loading a vector-to-final approach nearly every time when it's VMC for whatever runway I'm given a visual approach to and having visual cues on the 530/Aspen as to where the runway final approach course is (vs. just a GPS fix for the airport itself).
If I'm cleared visual straight-in, great -- I intercept the final path, get a clear picture of the runway, and come on down. If they tell me to enter the downwind, I scoot over a little using the line on the 530/Aspen until I unequivocally pick up the runway and can fly a pattern....
Ditto for airports with several similar runways (especially airports for which one is unfamiliar). I find it awful useful to make sure I'm not confused and am indeed lining up for something like runway 02 at an airport that also has a runway 36 when the winds are high, you're crabbing in, it's dark, the airport lights blend in with the city, etc... If V-T-Final Rwy 2 is loaded, the needles are centered, and the distance is right -- I'm in the right place.
Also useful for not dipping too low at night for airports without a VASI, PAPI, or have equipment out of service... 'Would hate to get a glimpse of trees at the last second at an unfamiliar field on a visual approach...
One last note: In the last few years, I'll increasingly be told something like "expect visual runway 18, proceed direct ABCDE fix" when I'm IFR, and ABCDE is only on the approach plates for a given runway (and not on the low route, etc.). Has happened at 5-6 airports recently (usually larger airports), including my home field just today... Having the V-T-Final course loaded really helps as you can just pick the fix (it's nearly always at FAF point), do Direct-To, and you're done...
Moral: Loading Vector-to-final in visual conditions is your friend for betting picking out the field and/or particular runway.
Just my 2 cents... Worth what you paid for it.
If I'm cleared visual straight-in, great -- I intercept the final path, get a clear picture of the runway, and come on down. If they tell me to enter the downwind, I scoot over a little using the line on the 530/Aspen until I unequivocally pick up the runway and can fly a pattern....
Ditto for airports with several similar runways (especially airports for which one is unfamiliar). I find it awful useful to make sure I'm not confused and am indeed lining up for something like runway 02 at an airport that also has a runway 36 when the winds are high, you're crabbing in, it's dark, the airport lights blend in with the city, etc... If V-T-Final Rwy 2 is loaded, the needles are centered, and the distance is right -- I'm in the right place.
Also useful for not dipping too low at night for airports without a VASI, PAPI, or have equipment out of service... 'Would hate to get a glimpse of trees at the last second at an unfamiliar field on a visual approach...
One last note: In the last few years, I'll increasingly be told something like "expect visual runway 18, proceed direct ABCDE fix" when I'm IFR, and ABCDE is only on the approach plates for a given runway (and not on the low route, etc.). Has happened at 5-6 airports recently (usually larger airports), including my home field just today... Having the V-T-Final course loaded really helps as you can just pick the fix (it's nearly always at FAF point), do Direct-To, and you're done...
Moral: Loading Vector-to-final in visual conditions is your friend for betting picking out the field and/or particular runway.
Just my 2 cents... Worth what you paid for it.
Last edited:
JHW
En-Route
kansas city downtown is one of the worst to spot especially at night. Plenty of folks have the controller tell them to turn downwind and they still don't see it.
3393RP
En-Route
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2012
- Messages
- 4,052
- Display Name
Display name:
3393RP
Air Park is tiny! With the mall and the tollway and the golf course and the curving roads...it's tough for a first timer to see it!
sourdough44
En-Route
Usually the airport is at the end of the displayed DME, GPS, ILS, VOR, whatever.
It's always a good idea to back up your eyeball with electronics, especially at night or an unfamiliar field. You don't want to make the headlines with the wrong field.
It's always a good idea to back up your eyeball with electronics, especially at night or an unfamiliar field. You don't want to make the headlines with the wrong field.
Martymccasland
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2011
- Messages
- 205
- Display Name
Display name:
M.McCasland
Whenever I am coming into an unfamiliar field I use an approach if available.
...And if no approach available, choose Direct-To the airport, switch to OBS mode, choose a custom radial from the fix that corresponds to a desired runway and one should be roughly lined up well before you arrive... Making picking out even hard to find airports without an approach easier...
Aside: It's my inability to find an AIRPORT (!) even after years of flying that makes me greatly admire some of the pilots in Vietnam. i.e. a swift-boat is taking fire, a gunship is called in for support, and they have to locate the target hidden in tons of cover -- while I can't even find a lighted airport with a virtual "X marks the spot" on my GPS. Ditto for in infantry on the ground in Vietnam -- gunfire just starts up from "over there somewhere" -- gives me the willies to think about fighting an enemy you can't see. Admire those guys greatly!
Jaybird180
Final Approach
One of my mentors flew the O-1 or O-2 (don't remember) he told me that most of his missions in 'Nam were at night and to light home base's makeshift runway they used two buckets of burning gas. The rest was brush.
He told me this when I told him I sometimes had a hard time finding the airport too.
peerlesscowboy
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 817
- Location
- Peerless, Montana
- Display Name
Display name:
John C Saubak
UH-1H "Huey" crewcheif, we navigated mostly by a combination of dead reconing & pilotage to get close and then home in on a colored smoke grenade popped by friendlies at the location (assuming there were friendlies at the location). Enemy positions were similarily marked for an airstrike by the fighters by colored (red) smoke dropped or fired by someone flying low & slow like us or more commonly by a forward air controller in an O-1 "bird dog" or an O-2 "mixmaster".
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,226
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
They still teach pilotage and DR in flight school and are periodically evaluated on it in their units. No GPS, 1:50,000 map, navigating to an unmarked field, day or night. That separates the men from the boys.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sounds plausible. In view of that possibility, maybe the best thing for a VFR-only pilot would be to tell ATC that he would like to follow the ILS final approach course VFR.
rbridges
En-Route
I've oftened wondered how many people flew right past an airport in the days prior to GPS. There are some airports, especially uncontrolled fields, that you can't see until you are right up on them.
peerlesscowboy
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 817
- Location
- Peerless, Montana
- Display Name
Display name:
John C Saubak
I prob'ly would'a flown right past North Las Vegas Air Terminal one night if the tower would'na told me to look down, you're right over the airport
Hank S
En-Route
I missed an sir port in WV, with GPS. Charleston ATC kept asking if I saw the field, but it was hidden behind a ridgeline perpendicular to my direction of travel. Fortunately I was in a Skyhawk, I just pulled power and made a right 270 to enter the pattern.
I prob'ly would'a flown right past North Las Vegas Air Terminal one night if the tower would'na told me to look down, you're right over the airport
That's happened to me too first time flying in there at night. Coming in to 25 from the east I simply could not see the runway until I was basically right over it and of course too high/offset when I finally saw. The tower controller seemed incredulous that I couldn't see it. The lights were so dim compared to the surrounding area lights (at least that is my excuse
). Anyway he just cleared me then to do a left downwind for 12R and that one was a lot easier to see.jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's happened to me too first time flying in there at night. Coming in to 25 from the east I simply could not see the runway until I was basically right over it and of course too high/offset when I finally saw. The tower controller seemed incredulous that I couldn't see it. The lights were so dim compared to the surrounding area lights (at least that is my excuse
Generally, if I'm going into a tower controlled lighting airport in the dark, and I'm VFR I ask them to turn all the lights up. They usually have them way dialed back which works for the locals and the guys coming in on the ILS but not so much for those of us that are VFR and not familiar with the area.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
When I fly at night, I make it point to know where the beacon is on the field. It helps a lot to get yourself situated when looking for an airport at night. I know at my home field, when approaching from the north, the beacon is on the north side of the field to the left of one of the runways. When I spot the beacon, I basically know where everything is.That's happened to me too first time flying in there at night. Coming in to 25 from the east I simply could not see the runway until I was basically right over it and of course too high/offset when I finally saw. The tower controller seemed incredulous that I couldn't see it. The lights were so dim compared to the surrounding area lights (at least that is my excuse
sourdough44
En-Route
The day I took possession of my plane I was to meet the previous owner at a smallish field somewhat between us. I was then to fly him back to his home. After we got to the airport I see him come by, as he continues to fly past the airport. With 'flight following' and a GPS it still took a bit to find the airport.
I didn't say anything, but he later made a comment about the airport being hard to find.
Even my simple Garmin 696 puts the extended rwy centerline out from the runway, there sits final with distance to the pavement.
That's happened to me too first time flying in there at night. Coming in to 25 from the east I simply could not see the runway until I was basically right over it and of course too high/offset when I finally saw. The tower controller seemed incredulous that I couldn't see it. The lights were so dim compared to the surrounding area lights (at least that is my excuse
The key to finding an airport in a city is watch for the dark spots, look away from them a bit, and see if you catch a flash from the beacon or other strobes, keep your eyes moving a bit. If you are looking directly at an airport at night, often you can't see the beacon.
Since this experience I now generally "cheat" by loading an approach for the runway I'm landing at and using that to track where I am while of course keeping my eyes outside the plane. Unfamiliar airports in a city with lots of adjacent lights are just too difficult to find just relying on trying to see them.
Lol, that's not cheating, that's using the tools you have available, that's smart. Yeah they can be tricky as heck sometimes.
Datadriver
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 932
- Display Name
Display name:
Datadriver
Happened to me on Friday. Going into Pleasanton TX ceiling was 1900 broken. Got below the clouds on the GPS approach and canceled IFR to ATC then switched back to airport frequency.