How many have no intent on IFR rating?

[DFH65]

Except the GPS satellites are in Geosynchronous orbit ...

This is not true. That is why there is a whole bunch of satellites and your GPS needs to find which ones are overhead at any given time.

 

[Silvaire]

Except the GPS satellites are in Geosynchronous orbit...

I think you might want to bone up on that because GPS satellites are not geosynchronous.

 

[Fredbob711]

I think you might want to bone up on that because GPS satellites are not geosynchronous.

Sorry, my mistake. Thanks for the correction. That'll teach me to post something before doing some double checking on facts.

While not as extreme of a difference, they do still orbit at 20k+ KM, far above the 800-900 KM the satellite the Chinese shot down was at.

And you shoot a nuke up there, you risk frying everyone's satellites, including your own.

 

[CTLSi]

If GPS sats were taken out, you can bet so will half the country. Flying GA in the middle of a nuke war is probably not gonna be high on your priority list.

Most get their IR because they wanna go for ATP or Commercial intending to have enough of a resume to make money flying. Flying Class A. Anyone else doing it is more after a merit badge than anything all that practical given the time/expense and rare usage if flying below FL18.

Flying Victor airways is utterly inefficient and old school. Why double your cross country distances ping ponging between VORs? GPS was practically invented for boats and aircraft.

 

[bqmassey]

Flying Victor airways is utterly inefficient and old school. Why double your cross country distances ping ponging between VORs? GPS was practically invented for boats and aircraft.

Sure, in many ways, GPS navigation is better, but I think you underestimate how vulnerable GPS is.

 

[Silvaire]

Would it require a pinpoint strike, or could you send a nuke up as high as you can and fry them with an EMP pulse?

Back in the early 50's when were doing nuclear tests like madmen on a regular basis they did a series of ultra high altitude blasts and one of them was of a pretty substantial yield. For some reason it completely screwed up communications in the entire SW Pacific region for a freakishly lengthy period of time - nearly 24 hours if I remember correctly but I'd have to check. It was similar to the underwater blast they did at Bikini in 1946 which instantly became apparent that it was a BAD idea from the moment it went off. You'll notice nobody ever tried to do that again, not even the French.

 

[smccray]

Nothing at all wrong with VFR only. I finished up my IFR rating about 13 months ago. I didn't get a lot of IMC time over the last year, but there was some IMC time, generally flying through a layer, or climbing through one of the common broken layers here in north Texas between 3K and 4K ft. MSL. I haven't flown one approach in IMC while single pilot. I don't intend to fly when the clouds get low, but I do plan to maintain proficiency such that if a need to fly a low approach in IMC arises I'll be able to do so. I wouldn't call myself proficient at the moment.

I generally file for any non-local flight. The thing I like the most is that I don't have to worry about air space, nor do I have to worry about maintaining cloud clearances. I've flown a few flights lately where I'm just above/below the clouds, and I've flown above the base of clouds and around afternoon cumulus clouds at distances less than cloud clearances. The rules are different, but not necessarily more difficult- that's up to you as the pilot.

With the perspective of finishing my rating recently, I would say that the process of getting the rating was more important than actually having the rating. I do fly closer to clouds now than I did before, but the process required more discipline to flying than I enforced as a VFR pilot. I recall trying to enforce a tight discipline flying as a VFR only pilot and I didn't have the ability until after I completed about 10-15 hrs of instrument training.

I have a client who flew 200 hrs/year round trip from Dallas to business meetings. In 2 years he only flew one approach in IMC both here in Dallas and at his destination. He was on a schedule and didn't cancel many (any?) flights for weather. He flew through layers all the time but the weather didn't require flying an approach in IMC.

 

[Silvaire]

Sure, in many ways, GPS navigation is better, but I think you underestimate how vulnerable GPS is.

I agree, you don't need a large payload to take it out, it's on a fixed and known trajectory with no possibility of evasive maneuver and completely defenseless. It's only defense is that it belongs to us and if you shoot it down you're probably gonna be in a world of hurt.

 

[bqmassey]

I agree, you don't need a large payload to take it out, it's on a fixed and known trajectory with no possibility of evasive maneuver and completely defenseless. It's only defense is that it belongs to us and if you shoot it down you're probably gonna be in a world of hurt.

Agreed, but that's the space vehicle. The signal itself is weak by the time it reaches Earth. It's very easily jammed, both intentionally, unintentionally, and by natural causes.

 

[DFH65]

Sure, in many ways, GPS navigation is better, but I think you underestimate how vulnerable GPS is.

There has also been a lot of discussion on the state of the satellite fleet. Many are well past their original intended lifespan. Like the rest of the infrastructure in this country it is in need of some attention.

 

[Hobobiker]

Bryan, I should chime in (since I appear to be diving right into my Instrument), that if it weren't for the fact that I receive free instruction I probably wouldn't be doing so either. My CFII is a friend and coworker who refuses to let me pay him and even takes my kids and I up at times in his Dakota. So, my only cost is airplane rental unless the situation changes. That, and I need to come up with creative ways to pay him or thank him. My girlfriend did a lot of baking and made chocolates for his family at Christmas, etc...

Anyway, right now I'm of the mindset that any IFR training I can get from him should be beneficial and, if i happen to stumble upon an IFR rating somewhere along the way, it would be wonderful.

 

[Henning]

If GPS sats were taken out, you can bet so will half the country. Flying GA in the middle of a nuke war is probably not gonna be high on your priority list.

Most get their IR because they wanna go for ATP or Commercial intending to have enough of a resume to make money flying. Flying Class A. Anyone else doing it is more after a merit badge than anything all that practical given the time/expense and rare usage if flying below FL18.

Flying Victor airways is utterly inefficient and old school. Why double your cross country distances ping ponging between VORs? GPS was practically invented for boats and aircraft.

Uhhhh, no 'practically' about it. GPS was exactly invented for boats and aircraft.

 

[rbridges]

Bryan, I should chime in (since I appear to be diving right into my Instrument), that if it weren't for the fact that I receive free instruction I probably wouldn't be doing so either. My CFII is a friend and coworker who refuses to let me pay him and even takes my kids and I up at times in his Dakota. So, my only cost is airplane rental unless the situation changes. That, and I need to come up with creative ways to pay him or thank him. My girlfriend did a lot of baking and made chocolates for his family at Christmas, etc...

Anyway, right now I'm of the mindset that any IFR training I can get from him should be beneficial and, if i happen to stumble upon an IFR rating somewhere along the way, it would be wonderful.

that's great that the instruction is free, but airplane rental is the lion's share of the cost. I honestly don't know how a lot of non-professional pilots pay for PPL and IR.

 

[charheep]

I recently flew CC for personal reasons. Of course both travel days were low clouds with clear days while I was at my destination. An IR would have allowed me to climb over the tops and sit in smooth air. But I had to fly down low and fly with turbulence the whole trip. I was safe and legal but in no way fun.

Saying all that, I am refraining from getting it. 1- Still burnt out from PPL training. 2- Keeping current will be difficult but not impossible. I dont want to turn flying into a chore though. 3-keeping the plane IFR certified

In the end I will get it though. Makes CC trips more realistic and more "schedule-able"

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Minimal interest (I would never be able to stay current enough to use it), no instruments in the airplane, don't get medicals any more.

So, yes, I have no intent.

 

[CTLSi]

If GPS is so vulnerable how come the entire military from ships to drones to battlefield ops to combat aircraft to targeting data to missile defense are all based on it?

If there is one tech that has over powering redundancy, it's GPS.

 

[whifferdill]

Someday I may get an IR just so that I can get my CFI and teach aerobatics and spins in a Pitts.

 

[Jaybird180]

Back in the early 50's when were doing nuclear tests like madmen on a regular basis they did a series of ultra high altitude blasts and one of them was of a pretty substantial yield. For some reason it completely screwed up communications in the entire SW Pacific region for a freakishly lengthy period of time - nearly 24 hours if I remember correctly but I'd have to check. It was similar to the underwater blast they did at Bikini in 1946 which instantly became apparent that it was a BAD idea from the moment it went off. You'll notice nobody ever tried to do that again, not even the French.

Wikipedia indicates 2 tests at Bikini

 

[Jaybird180]

I plan to get my IA

 

[bqmassey]

If GPS is so vulnerable how come the entire military from ships to drones to battlefield ops to combat aircraft to targeting data to missile defense are all based on it?

If there is one tech that has over powering redundancy, it's GPS.

The entire military is based on GPS? That's a really broad and inaccurate generalization.

 

[stratobee]

Out of the well over 30000nm of long cross country flying I did in my old twin, I got stuck once (1) due to weather and had to leave her behind. Once. And that was just for a day. Sometimes I had to park her for a few hours and take a nap or go get lunch until the bad stuff blew over, but except for that time, I always made it through. Some detours, of course. Some nerve tugging moments in bad wx as well. But if you don't have to be there now, now, now and can add a little padding to your trips, VFR is certainly very doable.

Reason I'm pursuing the IR ticket is that I need to be able to use it for business and need to increase dispatchability. And although I still plan on always having extra time when I need to really be somewhere, the IR will let me plan it a little tighter. Instead of the 3 days I had for my last LA to NY trip, I can probably plan on 2 days with an IR. Or even 1 if everything is favourable. That can't be done VFR. But if you have the time, why bother with the pain of the IR ticket? It's a hard ticket to get.

 

[petrolero]

Having "never gotten stuck" does not mean that IFR is not beneficial.

I might not have gotten stuck, but there also would have been flights I never made in the first place because I couldn't do so without busting VFR or my own safety or comfort standards.

To me, IFR = more options. With more options comes more potential hazards and the requirement for more judgement.

 

[CTLSi]

The entire military is based on GPS? That's a really broad and inaccurate generalization.

Every weapons system, every ship at sea, every ship based defense system, every anti-missile system, every military aircraft in the air, every Humvee and military vehicle, every missile, every battlefield, every possible military target in the world is GPS enabled, GPS mapped.

GPS IIIA satellites (IIIC deployment complete 2020) will transmit signals that will enable both civilian and military to determine their position to within 3 feet, compared with the 10 feet. And once enough IIIC satellites enter the constellation, positioning within 6 inches will be possible for all users, according to DoD. This tech has anti-jamming capability that remains a secret.

 

[FastEddieB]

Most get their IR because they wanna go for ATP or Commercial intending to have enough of a resume to make money flying. Flying Class A. Anyone else doing it is more after a merit badge than anything all that practical given the time/expense and rare usage if flying below FL18.

Most I know, including myself, got the IR for both the challenge and the increased flexibility it gave them in planning flights.

Flying Class A. Anyone else doing it is more after a merit badge than anything all that practical given the time/expense and rare usage if flying below FL18.

Sorry, that's just absurd on the face of it.

 

[bqmassey]

Every weapons system, every ship at sea, every ship based defense system, every anti-missile system, every military aircraft in the air, every Humvee and military vehicle, every missile, every battlefield, every possible military target in the world is GPS enabled, GPS mapped.

GPS IIIA satellites (IIIC deployment complete 2020) will transmit signals that will enable both civilian and military to determine their position to within 3 feet, compared with the 10 feet. And once enough IIIC satellites enter the constellation, positioning within 6 inches will be possible for all users, according to DoD. This tech has anti-jamming capability that remains a secret.

There's a massive difference between GPS enabled and GPS required. Most of what you describe would continue to function without GPS, just like it did before GPS.

I'm not talking about only about malicious, military grade jamming. I'm talking about jamming from localized sources, errant RF, and solar events.

I'm a big fan of GPS. I think it's great. It's just not the flawless, bulletproof system you're making it out to be. The land-based navigational aids will be around for some time to come, and for good reason.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Every weapons system, every ship at sea, every ship based defense system, every anti-missile system, every military aircraft in the air, every Humvee and military vehicle, every missile, every battlefield, every possible military target in the world is GPS enabled, GPS mapped.

Correct. I am not even allowed to get my ship underway from the pier without a working military GPS unless it is an absolute emergency and then I have to beg higher authority for permission to do so. It is ridiculous how friggin' dependent we have become on one single system.

There are some independent weapon systems here and there that do not require it, but they are dwindling.

 

[brywd]

I think flying was significantly more fun before I had my instrument. Remaining current and proficient is burdensome at times and I never just fly without being conflicted on whether to be in the system or just go.

With that said living near the ocean relatively speaking with the associated marine layers my plane is much more useful with an instrument rating. I wish I would have done it a long time ago.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Every weapons system, every ship at sea, every ship based defense system, every anti-missile system, every military aircraft in the air, every Humvee and military vehicle, every missile, every battlefield, every possible military target in the world is GPS enabled, GPS mapped.

Quit dragging facts into internet discussions. Yer stinkin' up da joint.

 

[Silvaire]

Wikipedia indicates 2 tests at Bikini

Only one was under water

 

[Martymccasland]

Anyone else doing it is more after a merit badge than anything all that practical given the time/expense and rare usage if flying below FL18.

I don't know where you're flying, but it's rare for me not to use or need it -- and I usually fly anywhere from 5000-12000, not in the FLs. The last 10 flights I've logged has had some sort of IMC -- 4 of the 10 had me doing approaches well below 1000 AGL at my destination. It was IFR or don't go. And this is Summer. Come Winter, around here at least (Arkansas), it's not at all uncommon to have an entire week of <1000 OVC good portions of the day, if not all day.

As a recent example: Just yesterday I flew to MS, the TAFs / FA said a layer at 12000 was forecast, but I arrive to find 1200 BKN and a conga line forming for the ILS. I guess I could have seen the clouds unexpectedly forming 150nm out, dive down to 700 AGL to be VFR legal, dodged and ducked cell towers for the last 150nm, got less fuel economy, and had 20 degree hotter cabin temps for the last hour (no AC for me) -- but why?

It's "easy IFR" days like yesterday where the IR is the epitome of practical for the little guys like me below FL180.

I'm assuming you're out West as I hear about guys never using their IR out there. But around here at least, it's hard to get much utility out of an airplane without it.

 

[Bonchie]

I want to get it, mostly because it's the logical step toward a CPL. I might even want to CFI one day.

But when I do get it, it's going to be a two week intensive course. I have no desire to drag out another rating. I got my PPL relatively quickly by most standards (4 months, 45 hours) but even that started to wear on me and I stopped having fun by the end of it. I can only imagine how crazy I'd go under the foggles every flight for four months.

 

[jordane93]

Anyone else doing it is more after a merit badge than anything all that practical given the time/expense and rare usage if flying below FL18.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I couldn't disagree more with this statement.

+1

For those that fly around in circles or just do $100 hamburger rounds, don't need it, for those us that do real x-country trips, it's almost a requirement , IMO.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[GMascelli]

The instrument rating is really about using your airplane as a traveling machine to get places on a schedule.

If you have no need for that, then there's no need to get the instrument rating.

What Ted said.....

Nothing beats tooling around looking out the window and enjoying the view. However, when you want to use your plane to travel the instrument rating really makes it a traveling machine. Besides, the VFR view is really nice but not much beats climbing through a layer and having to put your shades on while you ride along enjoying the beautiful puffy cloud layer below.

 

[CarpeCannoli]

After reading through this thread, I am surprised that no one mentioned the benefits of much better radio proficiency. Clear, crisp, and concise comms are what really distinguish pro pilots. A busy controller appreciates the guy or gal who can quickly and accurately describe what they want or need, as opposed to someone tying up the freq with hemming and hawing.

 

[timwinters]

Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread so pardon any repetition...

Bryan,

$10k for an instrument rating? Mine cost me less than $2k including my checkride. Of course, that didn't include the operation cost of my plane but, hey, I was flying my plane...something I want to do anyway.

It'll make you a better, safer pilot (hence the reason your insurance rates go down if you're instrument rated...they know you're less likely eat dirt also).

It's an easy rating to obtain, but it's hard to stay current and proficient (as a recreational pilot). When I was flying back and forth to work in my business I stayed proficient. Now that I'm flying for fun, I take an IPC once a year and almost never use it between.

I do not agree with whomever said you will be a less safe pilot if you don't use it. All sorts of people pull stupid pilot tricks. You may be more tempted to pull a stupid pilot trick sure, just don't do it.

Even when I was flying all the time, I found that the biggest advantage provided by an instrument rating is that it allowed me to to fly in high, clear, smooth, cool air instead of low, hazy, bumpy, hot air. I seldom flew long trips hard IFR though I did a quite a few flights to Cleveland in the clouds...especially the last 1/2 of those flights.

FWIW

 

[Scott@KTYR]

+1 for me on this.

The instrument rating is really about using your airplane as a traveling machine to get places on a schedule.

If you have no need for that, then there's no need to get the instrument rating.

 

[Jaybird180]

It'll make you a better, safer pilot (hence the reason your insurance rates go down if you're instrument rated...they know you're less likely eat dirt also).

You can't prove that (emphasis yours), so I'd wish you'd stopped repeating that mantra. You (and many others) are free to believe it to your heart's content.

 

[Fearless Tower]

You can't prove that (emphasis yours), so I'd wish you'd stopped repeating that mantra. You (and many others) are free to believe it to your heart's content.

If you know his statement to be incorrect, then please explain for us why insurance companies value the IR.

 

[Jaybird180]

If you know his statement to be incorrect, then please explain for us why insurance companies value the IR.

Simple answer: Tradition

Longer answer: the FAA registry does not purge pilots from the database. There are no accurate numbers of how many are active. The logic is that an IR rated pilot is more active than a PPL and therefore (must be) safer. A large number go on to become CPL and work 121/135 jobs, hence safer.

There is no conclusive data to say that a Part 91 GA operator in a SEL airplane flying for hobby is safer with or without an IR, same as there is nothing conclusive on SEL vs MEL airplane safety.