annoyed with flight school

uncreative

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Uncreative
On Saturday I was moved to a different plane that had some different flying characteristics (still a 172, but tended to really float on landing, confirmed by my CFI who said others don't like this plane). I spent about 3 hours doing pattern work at different airports and just completely botching the landings, to the point that the instructor had to take over on the last one. This comes on the heels of my first solo and passing the written earlier this week, so it was a frustrating letdown after I felt like I was starting to get my head wrapped around flying.

So carrying this frustration, as I head back to pay and find out which plane we have for my planned XC, we discover that we have no plane. This has been scheduled for almost 2 weeks. My CFI didn't really have an explanation for what happened. I have spent $3,000 there since the beginning of the month, and felt like there should have been some effort to figure something out. I guess they're busy enough that someone like me is just a drop in the bucket.

I'm planning on calling the owner once to express my concerns. Ever since I have started I've felt like the flight school/FBO experience has been one of the most customer unfriendly experiences I've dealt with. I have changed schools once already and unfortunately the experiences have been the same. People seem to be disorganized, late, last minute cancellations, lesson plans get changed because we need to go a different field to get fuel thats .10/gallon cheaper, etc.

Am I out of line with my expectations? I have a family and a demanding job, so when I have something scheduled its at the expense of something else. Is this a normal experience with FBOs and CFIs?
 
Is it any wonder so many people drop out...?

Find a good school, it's your money.

On the other hand, if you soloed already and still have problems landing a different model of the same plane, you may have soloed too soon. You're lacking the feel you need to be safe.
 
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No, you are not out of line. You are the customer. I would suggest speaking with the owner, outline your concerns, and if there is no improvement consider finding another school.

I'm meeting a similar issue in my training. I belong to a flying club. My CFI and I carved out two weeks of our lives to get my IR training done. We have had the time booked for two months, and now there have been some comments.
 
I completely agree, and that is why my lesson on saturday was frustrating. I thought I was to that point, but clearly I'm not.

On the other hand, if you soloed already and still have problems landing a different model of the same plane, you may have soloed too soon. You're lacking the feel you need to be safe.
 
On Saturday I was moved to a different plane that had some different flying characteristics (still a 172, but tended to really float on landing, confirmed by my CFI who said others don't like this plane). ............
Maybe the airspeed indicator reads low, why would that particular 172 tend to float more than the others of the same model unless you're actually coming in faster than the ASI is indicating? Seems like the owner of the flight school/FBO should be looking into why nobody likes this particular airplane :confused:
 
Just a quick observation, when I was learning to fly, the flight school had two 172's. I don't remember the details on years, but one had an airspeed indicator in MPH, and one was in knots. If you didn't pay attention, and just stuck it on 65, one would float forever!
 
Even experienced pilots have a down day now and then. Different planes are different. (If its floating, you're coming in too fast?) As for the cancellation, this happens all the time. Don't contact the owner, just reschedule. Flying can be quite frustrating sometimes. Remember the saying "two steps forward and one step backwards"? Well you had your one step backward and now are ready for two steps forward. Carry on.

When I was training for my private, I had to do a "stage check" with the head of the flight school before I could solo. I came in too fast and floated so I didn't pass. All it meant was I had to do some more dual before I could solo. It was frustrating, but I continued on and became quite a good pilot. You will too.
 
I think it's good to fly planes with different characteristics. Unless you own you will probably be renting several different planes in future. They probably will all fly different. When I was learning I flew a 172 mostly and had the usual struggles. Then I started flying a Comanche which was way different. When I went back to the 172 it was all easy. Really helped for me. Now I might fly several different types of planes in a day and they all seem pretty much the same. As far as plane availability. Training planes take lots of abuse so they break down or hit the 100 hr inspection at the most inconvenient times seems like. Only way to cure most of these problems is to buy your own. My first 172 I owned for about 3 years. Grew out of it and sold it for close to what I had in it. Actually slightly more minus fuel and ins and such. For me was a good deal. You might consider something of sort. Everyone has a frustrating point in there quest for pp though.
 
I think you absolutely should give them honest feedback (respectfully of course!) regarding your expectations and where they are falling short.

Regarding the planes, I have flown two different 172's where I rent and they each have their own feel but nothing you don't figure out after a couple times up and down and certainly not as bad as what you have described.
 
. As far as plane availability. Training planes take lots of abuse so they break down or hit the 100 hr inspection at the most inconvenient times seems like. Only way to cure most of these problems is to buy your own. My first 172 I owned for about 3 years. Grew out of it and sold it for close to what I had in it. Actually slightly more minus fuel and ins and such. For me was a good deal. You might consider something of sort. Everyone has a frustrating point in there quest for pp though.


What he said, minus buying your own plane for primary training, and for the reasons stated above.
 
Welcome to ga where customer service crashed and burned a long time ago.
 
I had the opposite problem...I WANTED to fly a bunch of different planes during my training so I wasn't a one trick pony and had a hard time swapping out from my scheduled 172.

We had the same thing with fuel...but again, it created some more actual real world experiences of diversion and planning ahead, so I liked it. Got me away from my home field more.

I lost my plane to a 100 hour inspection right before my solo stage check due to some poor planning and lack of foresight my the school (we were grounded the day before due to weather and it wasn't done then!)

It happens...but is all part of flying in both training and real world flying!
 
...that's why I bought into a plane early in my training. 1) familiarity 2) no scheduling issues 3) once I got signed off to solo I could go whenever I wanted without having to call the school in advance to make sure the plane I wanted was available at exactly the time I was available, etc...

I know it's not feasible for everyone but man, it sure has been nice. I'm in a Cherokee 235 with 3 other guys...it's not that expensive. I had to drop a few bucks for the 1/4 share but I pay about $180 a month (hangar, insurance, fixed expenses...) to have my own plane waiting for me. In a year and half now since I bought in - not one single scheduling conflict. The plane is reserved, on average, about 4-6 days a month and each person has it for at least a week or two at some point during the year for a vacation, etc...

Definitely makes GA more 'fun'.
 
Customer service seems to be lacking ,at a lot of flight schools lately. Complain to the owner,and if you don't get any satisfaction ,go elsewhere. Also let people know your feelings.
 
I have seen with my own eyeballs netjets botch a trip on a g5 from sdl to Rome. The plane had a taxi light out. So Netjets brought in a g4 which could not nonstop to Rome. It stopped in Iceland and when it got to Rome the next day the pax missed the cruise that they we originally going to Rome for.

Welcome to aviation. Planes break, plans change and we have to be able to roll with it. I feel your pain though.
 
The reason WHY the scheduled plane wss unavailable is rather important. I lost a slot today due to the previous renter's tiedown rash. He whanged a wingtip sufficient to make it unairworthy. That's hardly the FBO's fault.

Planes break. Sometimes they reach 100 hours just when you don't want them to. Now, if I got bumped so someone else could fly it, I'd be ****ed.
 
There are two issues at play, first is that you are flying by rote rather than feel and didn't find the stall speed for the lighter aircraft which combined with that you haven't been taught to feel the plane, you ended up too fast on final following a set of rote speeds. Not uncommon since most instructors don't really know any better than to 'fly the numbers' and never learned to develop the numbers for each airplane.

The second is the school's business standards.

Here's the thing, you need to take control of your training, you are the boss, not they, let them know in no unclear terms exactly what you want every lesson. The second is you need to put a whole lot more effort into learning what you need to learn in order to direct your training. This is all up to you, and the effort you put forth will influence heavily whether you live or die when things start cascading south.
 
I'm not sure why anyone would want to do pattern work for 3 hours.

Is the floaty 172 a different model year? An M versus an N or something? Does one have wheel fairings and the other doesn't? There must be some reason. Could be airspeed indicator out of calibration.

So carrying this frustration, as I head back to pay and find out which plane we have for my planned XC, we discover that we have no plane. This has been scheduled for almost 2 weeks.

Don't really understand...you "scheduled" an XC, but do not know which plane was scheduled, and it turned out to be none? Doesn't make sense.
 
Any instructor who starts with "I don't like this airplane" in something as simple as a 172, already has me wondering WTF. Any instructor that can't figure out and suggest methods to tame the airplane's behavior which sounds as if it just wants to land at a little slower indicated airspeed really has me annoyed.

Anyone taken it up high and seen what numbers it really stalls at in both clean and dirty configurations? How about comparing those to the airplanes that people "like" in the fleet.

Lazy and sloppy beget lazy and sloppy.
 
And to allow a student to fight with it for three hours? That just ****es me off.
 
...you are flying by rote rather than feel and didn't find the stall speed for the lighter aircraft which combined with that you haven't been taught to feel the plane, you ended up too fast on final following a set of rote speeds.

If you stick with this, you'll learn to blame yourself, not the aircraft, weather, ATC, FBO, instructor or whatever. The plane eventually landed, so it's a matter of some detective work to figure out how to land it well.
 
And to allow a student to fight with it for three hours? That just ****es me off.

This is a great point and hints that flight school may be in bussiness for just the money and not quality instruction. Simply put the OP got robbed and should be complaining to the owner more about the fact that the CFI kept him in the pattern for 3 hours post solo working on landings. What a waste!

The school I went to for training and now rent from has never been busier than it is right now. This past Sunday I had a takeoff slot of 1000am and the plane was late from the previous flight and the front desk was swamped with other customers. I've always loved this place but it seems like they are experiencing some growing pains right now. It's not a problem yet but I'll keep my eye on the quality of the customer experience. If it starts to waiver, or more importantly, if Maintnace starts to suffer( one of the biggest reasons I've been loyal for so long is because I know they take any Maintnace issue very seriously) then I'll be forced to look elsewhere. Every place has a bad day, but of it becomes constant then there is a problem.
 
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Don't really understand...you "scheduled" an XC, but do not know which plane was scheduled, and it turned out to be none? Doesn't make sense.

All the scheduling is done by my CFI and I have to take her word for it. They don't have any kind of online scheduling, its done on their internal computer.

If they were to tell me basically anything other than, "I dunno what happened" I'd probably be understanding. I understand that old planes break and can take a while to fix. But they gave me no reason, which leaves me feeling either a mistake was made (which is fine, just tell me you made a mistake) or the plane got taken out from under me, which isn't fine.

As far as taking control of my training as suggested, how do I know what is appropriate? The whole reason I'm paying an instructor is to guide me through this.

I understand the point about not blaming the plane. I was frustrated on Saturday not because I got put in a different plane, but frustrated that my skills were so deficient that I could not adjust to a different plane.
 
Flight schools in general are poorly operated in both finances and customer service. If somebody has found one that does both well it's an anomaly.
Best of luck.
 
Is the floaty 172 a different model year? An M versus an N or something? Does one have wheel fairings and the other doesn't? There must be some reason.

I occasionally hear statements like that, but the reality is that you can land any 172, including a 172RG (as long as the gear is down, of course), the same way as long as you trim it. There are differences, but the trim and the correct airspeed hide them rather effectively.

The one exception is a STOL kit -- you could get these for 172s, and they are pretty easy to identify by the fences on the tops of the wings. It makes a SLIGHT difference (I soloed in one), because it lowers the stall speed. Just a little, though. You might lower the stall speed slightly by loading the airplane far aft, but this is very difficult to do unintentionally. Most 172s with two in front and no cargo or backseat passengers will have a CG quite close to the forward limit.

If you're floating forever, you're fast. No ifs, ands, or buts.
 
I occasionally hear statements like that, but the reality is that you can land any 172, including a 172RG (as long as the gear is down, of course), the same way as long as you trim it. There are differences, but the trim and the correct airspeed hide them rather effectively.

The one exception is a STOL kit -- you could get these for 172s, and they are pretty easy to identify by the fences on the tops of the wings. It makes a SLIGHT difference (I soloed in one), because it lowers the stall speed. Just a little, though. You might lower the stall speed slightly by loading the airplane far aft, but this is very difficult to do unintentionally. Most 172s with two in front and no cargo or backseat passengers will have a CG quite close to the forward limit.

If you're floating forever, you're fast. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I wasn't trying to imply it was the airplane's fault, but if the airplanes have different characteristics, trying to fly them the same will yield different results. Could be one has 40 degrees of flaps and the other 30. If they are the same model, I would bet the airspeed indicators are out of calibration.
 
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All the scheduling is done by my CFI and I have to take her word for it. They don't have any kind of online scheduling, its done on their internal computer.



If they were to tell me basically anything other than, "I dunno what happened" I'd probably be understanding. I understand that old planes break and can take a while to fix. But they gave me no reason, which leaves me feeling either a mistake was made (which is fine, just tell me you made a mistake) or the plane got taken out from under me, which isn't fine.



As far as taking control of my training as suggested, how do I know what is appropriate? The whole reason I'm paying an instructor is to guide me through this.



I understand the point about not blaming the plane. I was frustrated on Saturday not because I got put in a different plane, but frustrated that my skills were so deficient that I could not adjust to a different plane.


Thoughts:

Even if the instructor handles the booking, ask politely via telephone a day before which aircraft you're getting. Just call the front desk on the phone.

As far as being frustrated with the plane goes, at your stage of learning, that's normal. What's not normal is the instructor not working hard to figure out what changed in your head (since 172s don't change their stripes that much) or if it's an ASI or other slight difference, and showing you how to compensate well before the 3 hour mark.

Should take one hour, maximum and maybe two if you're not listening to them. Not three.

That said, it could also be that you're learning to be pickier about your landings. ;) How do they compare to when you started? Is the instructor having to touch the yoke? Are they offering little thoughts about what's going wrong in each one during the lap around the pattern? Have they shown you the "fly down the runway but DON'T land" drill yet? Stuff like that...

It's hard to say from here but my feel is that the instructor is a little light in things in their bag of mental tricks to try when a student is struggling. Without hearing their side of it, they could be fine and you're just at a learning plateau. Those happen too. :)
 
Slightly off-topic but is it possible that the extra float was caused
by the flaps not being extended all the way? A coworker of mine
was soloing in a 172 and the flaps did not retract on a touch-and-go
and it turned out to be a faulty switch. It caused problems trying to
climb after takeoff. If the flaps did not extend to "full" during
approach due to some mechanical/electrical problem you would
experience longer float even if your airspeed was correct.

From the Wikipedia entry for the 172... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_172)

"The "P" model also saw the maximum flap deflection decreased from 40
degrees to 30 to allow a gross weight increase from 2,300 lb (1,043 kg)
to 2,400 lb (1,089 kg).
"

Maybe the "floater" is a P-model or later with 10 degrees less flap
extension angle and previously you flew a 172 with 40 deg max instead of
30.

If this is the case I am surprised that the instructor was not aware of
the difference but instructors are human and do make mistakes occasionally.
This highlights the importance of reading the POH for an aircraft "new"
to you. The 172 has been around for a looooong time and has gone
through many changes over the years.

Good Luck!

Victor
 
The more I read stories like this the more I realize I lucked out with the school I learned at. ( although I did intro flights at 5 before I settled).

I used 2 172's during training, one a G1000 and the other a newer six pack (2008). Both flew completely different.

The six pack was so much lighter on the controls and easier to fly, but the G1000 was so much easier to land smoothly.... I would fly the six pack plane and my instructor's would bash me on the landings...next week in the G1000 plane it was "dude that was perfect, where did that come from".....needless to say I passed my test in the G1000 plane..

No two vehicles build by man to the same design behave the same.....always differences.
 
The more I read stories like this the more I realize I lucked out with the school I learned at. ( although I did intro flights at 5 before I settled).

I used 2 172's during training, one a G1000 and the other a newer six pack (2008). Both flew completely different.

The six pack was so much lighter on the controls and easier to fly, but the G1000 was so much easier to land smoothly.... I would fly the six pack plane and my instructor's would bash me on the landings...next week in the G1000 plane it was "dude that was perfect, where did that come from".....needless to say I passed my test in the G1000 plane..

No two vehicles build by man to the same design behave the same.....always differences.


Isn't the G1000 Skyhawk significantly heavier with a CG quite a bit more forward than early Skyhawks?
 
Isn't the G1000 Skyhawk significantly heavier with a CG quite a bit more forward than early Skyhawks?

Not sure about the CG, but the SPs are fat pigs.

250 lb higher max gross weight than the earlier N models, but less useful load.

I occasionally fly SPs, and I don't find them significantly different to land than N models. They are more or less identical. They just cost $30/hour more and have way too many fuel drains.

G1000s fly like bricks when you throw them out of the aircraft. They make no difference.

I do seem to grease every single landing in the 177RG. Probably a difference in sight picture (it's obviously different from a 172). My 172 landings are firmer.
 
On Saturday I was moved to a different plane that had some different flying characteristics (still a 172, but tended to really float on landing, confirmed by my CFI who said others don't like this plane). I spent about 3 hours doing pattern work at different airports and just completely botching the landings

1. Determine weight and fuel on board so you can repeat this for every flight.
2, Go do slow flight and power off stalls FIRST before pattern work.
3. Multiply power off stall x 1.3 for approach speed (this excludes gust factor if needed).
4. Hit the 1.3 speed on final.
5. Landings will improve.

I had a day like yours at 17 hours years ago. Instructor pulled us out of the pattern and we did the above.
 
If the floater has the idle RPM set just a little bit high, just 75 or 150 higher, this might explain it too. If the shop set the RPM without full normal oil temp, the idle RPM will climb when fully warm. Also, none digital RPM Gage's are notoriously inaccurate. Which makes the mechanics job while setting idle a bit of a crap shoot.

Rolf
 
If the floater has the idle RPM set just a little bit high, just 75 or 150 higher, this might explain it too. If the shop set the RPM without full normal oil temp, the idle RPM will climb when fully warm. Also, none digital RPM Gage's are notoriously inaccurate. Which makes the mechanics job while setting idle a bit of a crap shoot.

Rolf

That's another really good possibility. I once flew a 172 with the idle set on the high side and used probably 50% more runway than usual.
 
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