1961 Cessna 175 project

[synclavier]

Hi all,

I have the opportunity to buy a 1961 Cessna 175B with a GO-300-D. It has old narco radios, no xpndr, all logs are lost. The airframe is in good structural shape, but the paint is bad. The interior is decent. There are rusty door hinges, and corroded hardware, but nothing looks too bad on the exterior. The gear springs have what appears to be superficial rust in areas where the paint has chipped. The prop, GB, engine and accessories are all there, but again no logs. The plane has been sitting outside on the ramp for years. The last time it was started was 3-4 years ago.

I'm an A&P and I'm looking for a project to wrench on and to have something to get my ticket in and to have to enjoy afterward. The owner of the 175 wants $5000 for the plane. I've read up on the peculiarities of the GO-300, its TBO, the STC'd 360, and difficulty in overhauling it past a certain level of usage. My plan was to go through this plane slowly and inspect/repair/replace anything that needs it. I'm also aware that without the logs every AD has to be inspected for compliance or removed, instruments have to be removed/inspected RTS'd, engine has to be removed, inspected, RTS'd, time-limited parts replaced/overhauled and new times established and entered into new logbooks for the prop/engine/airframe. Yes, it's going to take a long damn time and cost a lot of money. I expect that.

I'm wanting to know if there are any hurdles related to the doing all of these things myself, or in cooperation with an IA, especially for the avionics and the engine. Does the FAA require that a certified avionics repair station inspect, test, and rts the instruments, or can I do that? And is the same true for the engine with an engine shop? Or am I not seeing the forest for the trees on this deal?

 

[alfadog]

Funny you should ask with the below thread running :wink2:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68352

Though I feel ya and have done many similar projects with cars and motorcycles with mixed results. Do you have a cheap hangar?

 

[kgruber]

Run!

Even if it were perfect it is still somewhat of an undesirable airplane. It was never a market hit, and with good reason.

With the overall market in the dumps you will never even break even.

 

[frfly172]

Good luck,I hope your not taking on an impossible project.

 

[ClimbnSink]

monkey see banana. if you have to ask the answer is hell no.

 

[weilke]

If you want a 175 start out with one in slightly better shape and with logs. As an A&P you should know how nuch of the stuff you'll have to send out. You'll need a cooperative IA if you need to do any 337s and to sign off an annual in the end.

Do you have a hangar that allows you to do maintwnance in it ?

 

[bluerooster]

Stick an O470 in it and have fun.

 

[Tom-D]

Hi all,

I have the opportunity to buy a 1961 Cessna 175B with a GO-300-D.

The very first thing you need to do is a very simple test of the gear box. If the backlash of the reduction gears is good buy it for the 5k, salvage the gear box, oil sump, cases, crank, and all the accessory gears. you will make enough to buy this out right.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/for/4306527534.html

then you can go have fun for free.

 

[Tom-D]

Stick an O470 in it and have fun.

an IO-360-KB fits better and gives better useful load.

 

[Tom-D]

If you want a 175 start out with one in slightly better shape and with logs. As an A&P you should know how nuch of the stuff you'll have to send out. You'll need a cooperative IA if you need to do any 337s and to sign off an annual in the end.

Do you have a hangar that allows you to do maintwnance in it ?

Agreed, but think of this,, The annual is easy, fixing what is found is the biggy.

Like the 310 of another thread, lots of these old derricks aren't worth scrap.

but in this case there are GO-300-D fans looking for gear boxes, cranks, cases, and gears, at 5k and he is on scene, he could make a profit.

 

[synclavier]

The very first thing you need to do is a very simple test of the gear box. If the backlash of the reduction gears is good buy it for the 5k, salvage the gear box, oil sump, cases, crank, and all the accessory gears. you will make enough to buy this out right. QUOTE]

Would I need to obtain an 8130-3 for these parts in order to taken seriously when trying to sell them, or will yellow-tagging them be sufficient? Keep in mind there are no logs for the engine.

 

[Brad Z]

I'm wanting to know if there are any hurdles related to the doing all of these things myself, or in cooperation with an IA, especially for the avionics and the engine. Does the FAA require that a certified avionics repair station inspect, test, and rts the instruments, or can I do that? And is the same true for the engine with an engine shop? Or am I not seeing the forest for the trees on this deal?

Even with billing yourself out at $0/hr, you will loose money on this bird. Unless you want to do this for collector reasons, there's no money to be made here.

Honestly, in the condition you describe, and the lack of logs, that plane is worth roughly it's value in aluminum. Certainly not $5k.

 

[Tom-D]

Even with billing yourself out at $0/hr, you will loose money on this bird. Unless you want to do this for collector reasons, there's no money to be made here.

Honestly, in the condition you describe, and the lack of logs, that plane is worth roughly it's value in aluminum. Certainly not $5k.

Do you realize the cam, and crank accessory gears are $2400.00 each? the crank if standard is $7500.00, the cases are $6500.00 per set, the oil sump is selling for $2000.00, and the gear box is nearly priceless.

There is a good possibility that this aircraft could have an annual and go fly, there's virtually no difficult ADs to do, It would take about an hour for an A&P to reconstruct a set of new logs, verify and sign off the ADs compliance list.

Waking one of these old birds up isn't nearly as difficult as an old 310 that is highly modified.

I'll bet that old Continental will start right up and run as well as it did the last time.

Get it running and fly the hell out of it.

 

[synclavier]

Do you realize the cam, and crank accessory gears are $2400.00 each? the crank if standard is $7500.00, the cases are $6500.00 per set, the oil sump is selling for $2000.00, and the gear box is nearly priceless.

There is a good possibility that this aircraft could have an annual and go fly, there's virtually no difficult ADs to do, It would take about an hour for an A&P to reconstruct a set of new logs, verify and sign off the ADs compliance list.

Waking one of these old birds up isn't nearly as difficult as an old 310 that is highly modified.

I'll bet that old Continental will start right up and run as well as it did the last time.

Get it running and fly the hell out of it.

I was under the impression that I needed to remove, disassemble, inspect, replace or swap any internal parts found to be out of tolerance, assemble, install, test run, and sign off that all the aforementioned had been done according to the appropriate TCM overhaul manual before even attempting to annual this bird, due to there being no logs. I would have thought the same for the cockpit instruments, as well as anything else that can be calibrated or bench tested. Else, where would the FAA or anyone else presume all of these things came from? If I have to start the paperwork over from scratch, don't I have to provide a basis that these parts have been inspected and are found to be in operable condition?

 

[synclavier]

I guess these questions come from the supposition that there isn't going to be an A&P out there willing to annual and sign off on an engine he know nothing about, especially one without any logs, without at least cracking it open and having a look at the guts. I'm not actually interested in overhauling the engine at this point. I just want to legally establish its airworthiness within specs, put it back in, and fly it until it starts to get tired. By then I should be able to swing a 360 conversion or do an actual overhaul.

 

[Brad Z]

Do you realize the cam, and crank accessory gears are $2400.00 each? the crank if standard is $7500.00, the cases are $6500.00 per set, the oil sump is selling for $2000.00, and the gear box is nearly priceless.

There is a good possibility that this aircraft could have an annual and go fly, there's virtually no difficult ADs to do, It would take about an hour for an A&P to reconstruct a set of new logs, verify and sign off the ADs compliance list.

Waking one of these old birds up isn't nearly as difficult as an old 310 that is highly modified.

I'll bet that old Continental will start right up and run as well as it did the last time.

Get it running and fly the hell out of it.

I'm sure at one point in this bird's life it was worth big bucks in parts. If the owner says it was run 3-4 years ago, he probably means 8-10. I wonder when the last annual was done?

The OP states the plane has been sitting outside on the ramp for years. It has no logs. Anything steel is pitted like Swiss cheese. You really think you can just jump in and go fly? Ha ha ha ha...

 

[synclavier]

Do you realize the cam, and crank accessory gears are $2400.00 each? the crank if standard is $7500.00, the cases are $6500.00 per set, the oil sump is selling for $2000.00, and the gear box is nearly priceless.

There is a good possibility that this aircraft could have an annual and go fly, there's virtually no difficult ADs to do, It would take about an hour for an A&P to reconstruct a set of new logs, verify and sign off the ADs compliance list.

Waking one of these old birds up isn't nearly as difficult as an old 310 that is highly modified.

I'll bet that old Continental will start right up and run as well as it did the last time.

Get it running and fly the hell out of it.

Who, pray tell, is buying those components for those prices? Salvage yards, barnstormers, T-a-P, ebay?

 

[docmirror]

First, see if you agree with this statement: "I will own this plane for the rest of my life."

If that's a truism, then you can go about the rebuild process. Tom taught me to check the play at the end of the prop and if it's > 3/8", the gear backlash is sketchy at best.

Once you're done, you still have -- a 1961 C-175 which is a strange beast in the GA world. If you want to go the STC route with the O-360 engine, you might make a useful plane out of it. If you want to stay with the GO-300, it's going to be a rough road.

I was shopping them for a while last fall and winter, and I just couldn't get myself around the 1200 TBO, unobtainium gear drive, and s-l-o-w for the fuel burn. good take off performance, and load hauling but dead slow in cruise.

At $5k, you're looking at $25k in rebuild/refurb costs, on a plane that will never be worth more than about $20k unless the engine is upgraded. There's a flying one out of annual in Austin TX. It looks rough, but it's all there and has logs.

 

[weilke]

I was under the impression that I needed to remove, disassemble, inspect, replace or swap any internal parts found to be out of tolerance, assemble, install, test run, and sign off that all the aforementioned had been done according to the appropriate TCM overhaul manual before even attempting to annual this bird, due to there being no logs.

Is there a regulation for engine parts on a in-service aircraft to be within specific tolerances ?

I would have thought the same for the cockpit instruments, as well as anything else that can be calibrated or bench tested.

The only things you need to have formally tested and signed off are the transponder and pitot-static system.

The FAA will likely never see this bird. Whoever you work with as IA needs to be satisfied that all the applicable ADs have been complied with and that the plane is airworthy.

 

[Tom-D]

I was under the impression that I needed to remove, disassemble, inspect, replace or swap any internal parts found to be out of tolerance, assemble, install, test run, and sign off that all the aforementioned had been done according to the appropriate TCM overhaul manual before even attempting to annual this bird, due to there being no logs.

Oh hell no, you are not required to comply with the overhaul manual to determine airworthiness. You get it running, and if it makes the numbers IAW the type certificate you are good to go, providing it has no other discrepancies that would effect safe operation.

I would have thought the same for the cockpit instruments, as well as anything else that can be calibrated or bench tested.

Nope, as long as they operate in place as they should they are airworthy.

Else, where would the FAA or anyone else presume all of these things came from? If I have to start the paperwork over from scratch, don't I have to provide a basis that these parts have been inspected and are found to be in operable condition?

When you have operated these items in place and they operate correctly you have inspected them and determined they are airworthy. (or not)

I just looked up the AD list for the G0-300-D there are 4, 2 are about low oct operation applied by "N" number if your N number is not in the group no worries, one of the two cancels the other. The other 2 are about cylinder boss cracking the R1 cancels the first issue of the AD and only applies when the cylinders are removed.

You do not have to overhaul every component in the aircraft, that's crazy IF we did that on every aircraft during ever annual there would be no GA.

Operate it, inspect it, lubricate it, service as required by the 100 service manual, check the aircraft for modifications, if you find one, check the CD you get at OKC and determine if it was recorded on a 337 or STC.
Reconstruct the logs using the term total time unknown (TTUNK) to start and continue with the tack time as the entry in the logs.
using the CD check to see if the guy that you are giving the 5k to is the last registered owner recorded there you can do this on line at FAA.GOV

Don't give up the 5k until you know for certain he is the last registered owner, other wise you must obtain a bill of sale for each change of ownership, and that may be impossible to do. you'll be out your 5k and never own the 175.

 

[synclavier]

When you have operated these items in place and they operate correctly you have inspected them and determined they are airworthy. (or not)

I just looked up the AD list for the G0-300-D there are 4, 2 are about low oct operation applied by "N" number if your N number is not in the group no worries, one of the two cancels the other. The other 2 are about cylinder boss cracking the R1 cancels the first issue of the AD and only applies when the cylinders are removed.

You do not have to overhaul every component in the aircraft, that's crazy IF we did that on every aircraft during ever annual there would be no GA.

Operate it, inspect it, lubricate it, service as required by the 100 service manual, check the aircraft for modifications, if you find one, check the CD you get at OKC and determine if it was recorded on a 337 or STC.
Reconstruct the logs using the term total time unknown (TTUNK) to start and continue with the tack time as the entry in the logs.
using the CD check to see if the guy that you are giving the 5k to is the last registered owner recorded there you can do this on line at FAA.GOV

Don't give up the 5k until you know for certain he is the last registered owner, other wise you must obtain a bill of sale for each change of ownership, and that may be impossible to do. you'll be out your 5k and never own the 175.

Thanks, guys. I ordered a title search yesterday and should have the results in a couple of days. We'll see what we'll see...

 

[Tom-D]

Thanks, guys. I ordered a title search yesterday and should have the results in a couple of days. We'll see what we'll see...

title search?? no order the History CD, that will tell you who the last registered owner is PLUS the maintenance records of what was modified and how, all the 337s will be there. that is what you need to reconstruct the logs.

 

[JHW]

I was under the impression that I needed to remove, disassemble, inspect, replace or swap any internal parts found to be out of tolerance, assemble, install, test run, and sign off that all the aforementioned had been done according to the appropriate TCM overhaul manual before even attempting to annual this bird, due to there being no logs. I would have thought the same for the cockpit instruments, as well as anything else that can be calibrated or bench tested. Else, where would the FAA or anyone else presume all of these things came from? If I have to start the paperwork over from scratch, don't I have to provide a basis that these parts have been inspected and are found to be in operable condition?

Nothing of the sort. There is nothing illegal or inappropriate about a logbok starting out with TT UNKNOWN as long as the model does not have life-limited parts (which this one does not). That said, in this particular case I think 5K is too much. While Tom is 100% correct in his advice, it doesn't seem like you have the experience to part it out and make money. No offense intended, just an observation.

BTW the airframe log for my pawnee starts with an entry that goes like this: "TT unknown. Replaced fuselage, wings, and empennage with serviceable used parts. Installed engine XXX and propellor XXX in accordance with blah, blah, blah..."

 

[synclavier]

Nothing of the sort. There is nothing illegal or inappropriate about a logbok starting out with TT UNKNOWN as long as the model does not have life-limited parts (which this one does not). That said, in this particular case I think 5K is too much. While Tom is 100% correct in his advice, it doesn't seem like you have the experience to part it out and make money. No offense intended, just an observation.

BTW the airframe log for my pawnee starts with an entry that goes like this: "TT unknown. Replaced fuselage, wings, and empennage with serviceable used parts. Installed engine XXX and propellor XXX in accordance with blah, blah, blah..."

Thank you.

 

[synclavier]

Nothing of the sort. There is nothing illegal or inappropriate about a logbok starting out with TT UNKNOWN as long as the model does not have life-limited parts (which this one does not). That said, in this particular case I think 5K is too much. While Tom is 100% correct in his advice, it doesn't seem like you have the experience to part it out and make money. No offense intended, just an observation.

BTW the airframe log for my pawnee starts with an entry that goes like this: "TT unknown. Replaced fuselage, wings, and empennage with serviceable used parts. Installed engine XXX and propellor XXX in accordance with blah, blah, blah..."

IIRC, there are TIME limited parts that Cessna has established through revisions in the 172/175 manuals including vacuum hoses, vacuum filters, seat belts, trim tab actuators, so on... In that case, would you wait 10 years from the date of the new logbook to replace them, or would you replace the parts immediately to ensure compliance?

 

[weilke]

IIRC, there are TIME limited parts that Cessna has established through revisions in the 172/175 manuals including vacuum hoses, vacuum filters, seat belts, trim tab actuators, so on... In that case, would you wait 10 years from the date of the new logbook to replace them, or would you replace the parts immediately to ensure compliance?

I would replace the hoses because I dont want them to blow.
I would replace the seatbelts because they have probably significant UV damage from sitting outside (re-webbing them btw. doesn't require an A&P, it is a preventive maintenance task)

 

[Tom-D]

IIRC, there are TIME limited parts that Cessna has established through revisions in the 172/175 manuals including vacuum hoses, vacuum filters, seat belts, trim tab actuators, so on... In that case, would you wait 10 years from the date of the new logbook to replace them, or would you replace the parts immediately to ensure compliance?

Unless the equipment listed is included in a AD they do not require changing, in part 91 these items are replaced as required.

 

[Skylane81E]

Track down HarryC on the forum and ask him about 175 projects
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/member.php?u=8121

 

[Skylane81E]

Unless the equipment listed is included in a AD they do not require changing, in part 91 these items are replaced as required.

Replace on condition. So expect lots of replacements

 

[Tom-D]

Here is what it could be.

 

[Tom-D]

Replace on condition. So expect lots of replacements

Yeah maybe, Who knows from here?

 

[Skylane81E]

Yeah maybe, Who knows from here?

Expect the worst, hope for the best!

 

[Tom-D]

Expect the worst, hope for the best!

on a project like this you get caught in a syndrome where the bigger the hole gets the bigger it needs to be.

I once needed to repair a mag. ended up like this

 

[Skylane81E]

 

[synclavier]

I checked the backlash on the gear this afternoon. There was about 1/4'' of play. I'm going to try to borrow a battery and get her started sometime in the next week. Before I do that, should I drain the oil and remove the old filter and cut it open to see what (if any) metal is in there, or should I have it sent off for analysis?

 

[brien23]

I checked the backlash on the gear this afternoon. There was about 1/4'' of play. I'm going to try to borrow a battery and get her started sometime in the next week. Before I do that, should I drain the oil and remove the old filter and cut it open to see what (if any) metal is in there, or should I have it sent off for analysis?

Run away now.

 

[LandSickness]

I checked the backlash on the gear this afternoon. There was about 1/4'' of play. I'm going to try to borrow a battery and get her started sometime in the next week. Before I do that, should I drain the oil and remove the old filter and cut it open to see what (if any) metal is in there, or should I have it sent off for analysis?

{sniff, sniff} I smell smoke.....anybody else smell smoke?

 

[docmirror]

I think what I would do is offer $3500, do the deal, then take the jugs off and have them cleaned up. inspect and clean the cam lobes best I can, pre-lube with some lithium grease, put it all together with new oil and hope for the best.

No way would I try to crank the engine after sitting so long. It's gonna make some metal on start up, and then grind it through everything that gets pressure lubed. I might even wash down the innards with some stodard solvent, blow it out, then coat the cam, install the jugs and give it a try.

YMMV, do anything you want once you own it.

 

[Tom-D]

I checked the backlash on the gear this afternoon. There was about 1/4'' of play. I'm going to try to borrow a battery and get her started sometime in the next week. Before I do that, should I drain the oil and remove the old filter and cut it open to see what (if any) metal is in there, or should I have it sent off for analysis?

1/4" is pretty good. change the oil, flush the crank case with a stodard solvent, change the filter if it has one.
get each cylinder to compression stroke about 1 inch prior to TDC. remove the top plug and fill with WD 40 or your choice of 10 weight oil. do that to each cylinder. then pull all the plugs and clean them crank the engine on the starter until you see oil pressure. Yeah you are going to have a mess to clean up replace the plugs, then fire it up.
Do not idle this engine keep at least 1200-1300 RPM on it. for about 30 minutes or when it starts to heat up.
Drain the oil thru a clean white rag into a 5 gal bucket.. see what ya got in the rag, if it is clean, go fly.

Let us know how this turns out.

 

[docmirror]

Do rings tend to stick on these jugs? I'm really worried about a stuck then broke ring.

I did a Jag 3.8L engine about 12 years ago. The owner found it in the proverbial barn, and couldn't wait to make it run. we lubed it and once we got it running, it broke three rings in a row from 1-3. Wound up taking the engine all apart and had to rebore it.