Traded in our most expensive car ever on Saturday

stratobee said:
I drive a 20 year old car. I have the means to at least finance a new car. A nice car. And since I'm now firmly in midlife crisis territory, I really got excited about the new-yet-still-old 911 Targa they're releasing:
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I have an old Targa. Doesn't make much of a daily driver but it sure is a lot of fun when I take it out on some backroads on a sunday morning.

However, call me a California poof,
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You are a california poof.

I'm fed up with big oil, the taxes, the dirty smelliness, the silliness of an engine that makes 75% heat instead of power or an engine that idles when I'm stuck in traffic.
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If an old 911 doesn't leak oil, smells like oil and has an unstable idle, it is probably dead :D .

You wont escape the taxes, the states are already working on charging electric car owners for use of the roads.

So why not a Tesla?
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Expensive and not yet proven to have staying power.

60% of Porsches ever built are either still on th road or stored by someone for later enjoyment. I just dont see anyone salivating over one of those electric wheelchairs 30 years from now.
 
Geico266 said:
No Audi ever made is worth $1,000, IMHO. Absolute pieces of ****. Mechanically, one of the worst cars on the road.​
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You do realize the "H" stands for "Humble" right, Geico?
 
I have a 1999 BMW. The only person I let touch it is my self. It costs me almost nothing to maintain since I use mostly used parts.

People who owe money on their new Camry are jealous ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Tmpendergrass said:
I have a 1999 BMW. The only person I let touch it is my self. It costs me almost nothing to maintain since I use mostly used parts.

People who owe money on their new Camry are jealous ;-)
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Same can be said for almost any car for which you do your own work on. My '93 3000GT VR4 would cost me about nothing to own if it weren't for the fact that I'm consistently upgrading it. Even with the upgrades, my total ownership cost has been way, way lower than just about any new car. And I have 450 HP. :)

Now this thread has me looking at a practical family sedan like an XJR or M5 on eBay. The ones in the year range I want aren't expensive. But I told myself I wouldn't buy another car until I was ready to put a new engine in the VR4...
 
I'd be more interested in electric cars if they could get that exhaust note right....
 
stratobee said:
The sooner all these car makers go electric, the happier I will personally be. Might not be for everyone, or work for your commute, but I will not buy a pure fossil fuelled car ever again. Their time is up.
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So where, pray tell, are we going to get all this electricity from? Libbies out here scream and howl every time someone proposes building a power plant yet they sing the praises of electric cars . . . . idiots.
 
comanchepilot said:
So where, pray tell, are we going to get all this electricity from? Libbies out here scream and howl every time someone proposes building a power plant yet they sing the praises of electric cars . . . . idiots.
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New gas plants are 35% thermally efficient, nearly 50% for combined cycle plants. 27% is about as good as you get from a car. Nuclear power (includes Thorium which we really need to get online), wind and solar farms use no hydrocarbons.
 
comanchepilot said:
So where, pray tell, are we going to get all this electricity from? Libbies out here scream and howl every time someone proposes building a power plant yet they sing the praises of electric cars . . . . idiots.
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For the most part electric cars are charged overnight when the demand is low, so no new power plants are needed. Where I live, my electric supplier has a surplus of capacity in general and particularly so overnight, and they've set a preposterously low electric car charging rate, like less than 5 cents per kwh. In 2017 or 2018 we'll be adding more reactors to (nuclear) Plant Vogtle, so they'll have even more unused overnight capacity.

Also, as photovoltaic continues to get cheaper, the electric car is a natural complement to solar power as the car provides a storage source, so it may well be that in a few years it will make sense to charge during the daytime hours.
 
There is no doubt that electric will become more expensive down the road. Governments are not just going to stand by an quietly let go of trillions of dollars in fuel taxes when the demand dwindles, no matter how good it might be for the environment or efficiency. They don't give a s**t about the environment, they give a s**t about bringing cash in. The truth is they're making billions off of it in taxes. So they will start taxing car ownership, road use, solar panels, wind turbines etc, but at least we can then get our fuels from different sources and be ahead of the game. The monopoly of oil will be gone.

We have to ask ourselves why governments and oil companies are so hot for fuel cells? Because they would just love to get you into yet another proprietary fuel they can control the supply of and easily tax, just like oil. The fuel cell is a complete dead end. The future is power storage. Elon Musk's prediction that in 20 years time more than half the cars sold will be electric is going to be a reality.

And when we extend this to aviation down the line (when power storage increases), we will see huge benefits. It might even be the rebirth of aviation. The future they envisioned in the 50's with flying cars etc, might just happen when the prices drop considerably.

I embrace it fully. Electric propulsion will make the future a better place. Resistance is futile.
 
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ScottM said:
One of my friends had an M5. He traded in his M-Roadster for it. I kept and still have my M-Roadster. He was really amazed that the M-Roadster could beat the M5 off of the line, even though he used the launch mode. It could not maintain that lead on the track. But he thought it would kill from the first millisecond.

I haven't done the power to weight measurement of the two cars. But I would not be surprised that was the reason. After moving it was just then pure hp, which the M5 had plenty to spare got it out in front.
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Not far from here is a stoplight on a divided highway. I was out giving my Saturn a chance to stretch its legs and sitting at the red light when one of the new high end supercharged Jags came up behind me, then changed lanes and pulled up next to me. When the light turned green and he gave it the beans he found out how much weight matters, given what happened I'd have to say our power/weight ratios were nearly identical.

Now I'm sure he and his lady friend were much more comfortable than my friend and I in my gutted out econobox.
 
stratobee said:
There is no doubt that electric will become more expensive down the road. Governments are not just going to stand by an quietly let go of trillions of dollars in fuel taxes when the demand dwindles, no matter how good it might be for the environment or efficiency. They don't give a s**t about the environment, they give a s**t about bringing cash in. The truth is they're making billions off of it in taxes. So they will start taxing car ownership, road use, solar panels, wind turbines etc, but at least we can then get our fuels from different sources and be ahead of the game. The monopoly of oil will be gone.

We have to ask ourselves why governments and oil companies are so hot for fuel cells? Because they would just love to get you into yet another proprietary fuel they can control the supply of and easily tax, just like oil. The fuel cell is a complete dead end. The future is power storage. Elon Musk's prediction that in 20 years time more than half the cars sold will be electric is going to be a reality.

And when we extend this to aviation down the line (when power storage increases), we will see huge benefits. It might even be the rebirth of aviation. The future they envisioned in the 50's with flying cars etc, might just happen when the prices drop considerably.

I embrace it fully. Electric propulsion will make the future a better place. Resistance is futile.
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Batteries have a loooooong way to go yet, and charge time is an even bigger deal breaker than range.

With you though, I'd buy a Volt tomorrow if I was in the market for a new commuter car and if I was in a position to spend the money on a high end new sedan a Tesla would be on the list of cars to try out. I just wouldn't replace all our gas cars yet.
 
Batteries do have a long way to go. But they're getting better and better. Some disruptive battery technology will come along that tenfolds it at some point and then it will all be over for oil. Batteries don't need to reach fossil fuel power storage levels, only 1/3 of that as combustion engines waste 75% in heat and noise. Those numbers are not as far off as we think.

Aviation is gonna take a little bit longer as we run on higher power levels. But it will happen.
 
Skylane81E said:
Not far from here is a stoplight on a divided highway. I was out giving my Saturn a chance to stretch its legs and sitting at the red light when one of the new high end supercharged Jags came up behind me, then changed lanes and pulled up next to me. When the light turned green and he gave it the beans he found out how much weight matters, given what happened I'd have to say our power/weight ratios were nearly identical.

Now I'm sure he and his lady friend were much more comfortable than my friend and I in my gutted out econobox.
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Not sure which year it was, but aside from weight those supercharged Jags also have a 5-speed Mercedes automatic that I never found all that great when I drove them. What the car really needs is a manual transmission and a better supercharger than the inverted Eaton blower, or at least better pulleys.

My '82 XJ-S had a GM TH400 originally. When I swapped it for a Tremec TKO 5-speed, it completely transformed the car.
 
Our family owned a few Audi cars over the years, unlike some, had great deal of fun with them and not too expensive

1983 Audi 100CD (euro 5000) - my dad's first Audi. That thing still drives around. Last I saw it, it had north of 470k miles on the original engine and no MOH

1989 Audi 200 Quattro - yeah, that was a ride :) 220hp turbo, quattro.

1998 Audi A6 - totaled that one :( Replaced with 2008 VW R32

1997 Audi A8 - shiny white pearl. Transmission started acting up on it, wife traded it in for a yellow FJ Cruiser - go figure.

But nah, overall still love them better than most cards and still treat anything that's not quattro as weird :)))
 
Audi actually videoed me driving both a Tesla S and an Audi A8. They were trying to make some internal use case for building electric cars. I have to say the Tesla is impressive. The Audi A8 isn't bad but it doesn't drive as smooth and as nice (I have an A4 Cabriolet).

I don't know what Audi's plans are. I think the guy who I was working with there went to work for Tesla anyhow.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Porches have never done it for me for some reason, I don't know why.
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Because they're homely, kinda ugly and look like frogs on wheels. I have never understood how the chopped down Volkswagen Beetle got to be such an object of desire. It has to be some sort of left over Nazi mind control device they have over at Porsche. Fortunately, you and I are immune.:yesnod:
 
48dodge said:
I agree that electric cars are part of our future, but they are far from ready for prime time. And no electric cars are not new technology. The following article has a few very familiar statements

http://sathiyam.tv/english/1001-inventions/electric-car
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Really? What is automotive "prime time"? A Tesla would work just fine for me. I would much rather plug in my car every night like I do my cell phone, then go to the gas station two times a week like I do now. Maybe you mean not prime time because they aren't cheap enough yet. That I might agree with.
 
Dav8or said:
Because they're homely, kinda ugly and look like frogs on wheels. I have never understood how the chopped down Volkswagen Beetle got to be such an object of desire. It has to be some sort of left over Nazi mind control device they have over at Porsche. Fortunately, you and I are immune.:yesnod:
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Because they are quite aerodynamic and efficient and pretty to fun to drive.
 
Dav8or said:
Really? What is automotive "prime time"? A Tesla would work just fine for me. I would much rather plug in my car every night like I do my cell phone, then go to the gas station two times a week like I do now. Maybe you mean not prime time because they aren't cheap enough yet. That I might agree with.
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Prime time as in you can't drive it out of your city. There will be a time when you can recharge a car in much less than an hour. Maybe the same time or less than filling up with gas. Don't get me wrong I would love to have a Tesla.
 
Dav8or said:
Really? What is automotive "prime time"? A Tesla would work just fine for me. I would much rather plug in my car every night like I do my cell phone, then go to the gas station two times a week like I do now. Maybe you mean not prime time because they aren't cheap enough yet. That I might agree with.
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That's pretty much it.

I'd love to have a Tesla - they look grand and wonderful and, by all accounts, drive better.

They're just staggeringly costly. I suspect that will change.
 
Audi had a whole thing with the E-tron going - beautiful car. Then they dropped it and said the were not gonna make electric cars for now. World's not ready, too expensive etc. Cut to Detroit Auto Show last week and guess what - a new E-tron appeared. I guess Teslas sales numbers changed their minds….:wink2::D

Evolve or die.

Audi-allroad-shooting-brake-etron-naias-designboom02.jpg
 
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FormerHangie said:
For the most part electric cars are charged overnight when the demand is low, so no new power plants are needed. Where I live, my electric supplier has a surplus of capacity in general and particularly so overnight, and they've set a preposterously low electric car charging rate, like less than 5 cents per kwh. In 2017 or 2018 we'll be adding more reactors to (nuclear) Plant Vogtle, so they'll have even more unused overnight capacity.

Also, as photovoltaic continues to get cheaper, the electric car is a natural complement to solar power as the car provides a storage source, so it may well be that in a few years it will make sense to charge during the daytime hours.
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But that is only half of the equation.
When demand is lower at night, coal fired plants burn appropriately less fuel. If everybody comes home at night and plugs in the family truckster, the plants run full bore 24/7. Great profit wise for the utilities, and the railroads who ship coal.
Electric cars are NOT carbon neutral.
Also, electric utilities WILL want more capacity because now in this new automotive utopia, they will never be able to load shift, such as they do now as peak demands rise and fall due to different time zones.
Nuclear, wind and solar will be along as major suppliers of power long after the automotive technology will have developed the new cars.
 
48dodge said:
Prime time as in you can't drive it out of your city. There will be a time when you can recharge a car in much less than an hour. Maybe the same time or less than filling up with gas. Don't get me wrong I would love to have a Tesla.
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That's the thing, people condemn electric cars all the time based on this criteria of hitting the open road and fast recharge times. Many say that not until an electric car can equal a gas car in range and recharge time will they consider one.

I think this kind of thinking is dumb.

The single car household is exceedingly rare in America these days. Even when I was single I had multiple cars. Now, aside from toys, I have a car, my wife has a car and we have an Econoline van to do the household work. I could easily replace my car (if not for price) with a Tesla and we would still have my wife's car to leave the city if we want to. I suspect there are millions of households across America that could employ a similar strategy.

So, no, the electric car is not ready to take over all car sales, but it could take over probably half the sales if we could only do something about the price. There are hundreds of thousands of us ready to go if the price is right and millions more after that once they watch the early adopters happily whiz by gas stations.
 
stratobee said:
Audi had a whole thing with the E-tron going - beautiful car. Then they dropped it and said the were not gonna make electric cars for now. World's not ready, too expensive etc. Cut to Detroit Auto Show last week and guess what - a new E-tron appeared. I guess Teslas sales numbers changed their minds….:wink2::D

Evolve or die.

Audi-allroad-shooting-brake-etron-naias-designboom02.jpg
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Tesla sales may have some to do with it, the state of California likely has more to do with it. There is a new law here that says if you want to sell new cars in California, you have to make available an electric option and you have to build at least 1000 of them a year country wide.

Now, some manufacturers have chosen to take the challenge and really work on a true electric car offering while others (the majority) are building what have come to be known as "compliance" cars. Compliance cars are just electric conversions of a companies existing gas powered car. Usually built to the required 1000 and priced accordingly.

California is the most important car sales state in the union and actually more important most countries, so manufacturers are complying. I don't know much about the Audi above, so I can't comment on it. I personally don't agree with the law, but there it is.
 
stratobee said:
Audi had a whole thing with the E-tron going - beautiful car. Then they dropped it and said the were not gonna make electric cars for now. World's not ready, too expensive etc. Cut to Detroit Auto Show last week and guess what - a new E-tron appeared. I guess Teslas sales numbers changed their minds….:wink2::D
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Audi fired the exec. who canceled the E-Tron electric car projects last summer. They're back on now.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/audi-dismisses-head-of-rd-wolfgang-durheimer/
 
Vaporware for now but I'd love something like this. Separate motors for each wheel, get independent control of each motor and can you imagine the burnout possibilities:lol:


PML's specialty is flat "pancake" brushless electric motors — it makes them for various military, marine, and construction applications — and in the Mini these motors are entirely contained inside the 19-inch wheels. Each wheel contains an identical motor, each rated at 160 horsepower, which makes this an all-wheel-drive 640-horsepower Mini. Top speed is estimated to be in excess of 150 mph, with a 0-to-60 time of 4.5 seconds. The figures are estimated because, as this is written, the PML QED (for "quad electric drive") Mini has not run with electric power; its creators have been too busy drumming up interest at the British International Motor Show and the Electric Vehicle Symposium in Japan.
 

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The unsprung weight on the wheels is still an issue. There are at least one other in wheel motor company working on this. I like this concept the most if they can solve this issue.
 
RevDMV said:
The unsprung weight on the wheels is still an issue. There are at least one other in wheel motor company working on this. I like this concept the most if they can solve this issue.
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Why is unstrung weight in the wheels an issue? The expense of the wheel with the propensity of damage concerns me. A pot hole having the ability to cost thousands of dollars is ugly.
 
comanchepilot said:
For $115k I'd rather have a 1964 Ford F100 for $5k, a 2002-2005 Boxster for $12k and $98k in the bank . . . .
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I still have my 03 Boxster. Only 56K miles on the clock. I love that car. I live only 7 miles from work, so some days I have to take the long way home.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Cool that someone finally built a car where the gas motor charges the battery, no direct drive from the gas engine. The Prius model is just a glorified gas golf cart.
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That's how the Chevy Volt is made too.
 
Henning said:
Why is unstrung weight in the wheels an issue? The expense of the wheel with the propensity of damage concerns me. A pot hole having the ability to cost thousands of dollars is ugly.
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'Cause excessive unsprung weight makes the vehicle drive like a tank.

Suspension depends on the unsprung portion being a small fraction of the total weight.

Wheel motors seem like a good idea, especially for traction control; they don't require driveshafts, axles, differentials, and so on, and will be all but immune from wheel slip.

As for potholes causing thousands of dollars of damage, sure that's a worry, but you can do that now by whanging a differential pumpkin on a rock, curb or speed bump. Unless these motors are excessively large, it ought to be manageable, especially if they can be made to fit inside a wheel. And the Unimog solution would seem possible. It isn't absolutely necessary to drive wheels on the center, though it necessarily implies more moving parts to do otherwise.

And size and weight is going to be the game.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, people don't understand that you can often have a top end car for free for a couple of years. I know a guy who gets a new Ferrari every other year, it doesn't cost him much.
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That sure doesn't happen with porsche and I doubt with Ferrari either. My 2007 Carrera s coupe sold new for 110 thou. I bought it in 2009 for 55 grand from the same new car porsche dealer with 14000 miles on it in like new condition with full remaining warranty. It was a fantastic car to drive, very fast, well built but really overkill for a daily drive and expensive to maintain. It also had too much typical German engineering, complex radio, gps I didn't want, etc. finally sold it for what I paid for it after driving it about 14000 miles. It's always the first buyer who takes a beating. Compared to a 5.0 1992 mustang I had owned the porsche was magnificent. The mustang was garbage.
 
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