Korean 777 Down in SFO

slacktide said:
A super-hi res pic of the entire debris field and ground path.

http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/R..._GM1E9770NWQ01_RTRMADP_3_USA-CRASH-ASIANA.JPG
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From the picture, here's what it looks like:

The LEFT engine went off the RIGHT ride of the runway

The airplane spun counterclockwise about 310 degrees

The right engine is the one against the right side of the fuselage (I know that seems intuitive, but never assume)

The airplane was significantly off centerline when it struck the seawall

Initial impressions, and they could be wrong. I am not an aircraft investigator, but I was a traffic homicide investigator for 15 years.
 
I have had about enough of the CNN animation of the crash, doesn't jive with much of the debris
 
You can also see the line of people on the right top of that photo walking along marking the debris locations or doing the FOD walk to clear that side, whichever. Neat photo in a sad way.
 
denverpilot said:
You can also see the line of people on the right top of that photo walking along marking the debris locations or doing the FOD walk to clear that side, whichever. Neat photo in a sad way.
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It's absolutely amazing that only 2 people died in this, and reportedly both of those two died after being ejected from the aircraft. We stand on the shoulders of giants. Thank lessons learned from previous crashes regarding seat and interior equipment design, flammability requirements, evacuation training, design of emergency exits, etc.
 
denverpilot said:
The VOX appears to have been activated in the 777 during the crash. The transmissions later sound like a conversation in the cockpit, not directed at the controller. I can't quite make out what they're saying though.
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Aircraft radios have VOX? Seems to me that design feature would be avoided, for just that reason.

Pilots have been known to unwittingly press the push-to-talk switch during emergencies (including yours truly :redface:).
 
Palmpilot said:
Aircraft radios have VOX? Seems to me that design feature would be avoided, for just that reason.

Pilots have been known to unwittingly press the push-to-talk switch during emergencies (including yours truly :redface:).
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I know the intercom in the 777 does.

Whether it can be put in that mode for actual transmissions is a Greg question. ;)

I kinda doubt it now that I think about it...

But who knows who's smashing what PTT button or sitting on one after a ride like that. Or just a mangled wiring harness shorting out.

Heck just trying to yank on a yoke trapping someone in a seat would do it.

Bad day at the office, for sure...
 
Re: 777 down SFO

RoscoeT said:
I never anything about 100%. You said "likely" pilot error. So again, keyboard captain, what's your evidence and experience to make such a judgment?

There was a news report that emergency services were in place before the landing, which means an in-flight emergency was communicated. The fire trucks were there instantly. Why else would they have gotten there so fast?
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Whats your evidence and experience to refute it? You dont need to be an astronomer to know what the sun looks like when it rises in the east.
 
ARFlyer said:
Yeah it looks like the tail got sheared off at the embankment. I hope this isn't another BA777 fuel freezing event.
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I don't know about fuel freezing .. but hasn't there been a couple issues with throttle response on final on those?
 
slacktide said:
It's absolutely amazing that only 2 people died in this, and reportedly both of those two died after being ejected from the aircraft. We stand on the shoulders of giants. Thank lessons learned from previous crashes regarding seat and interior equipment design, flammability requirements, evacuation training, design of emergency exits, etc.
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How in tarnation would someone get ejected from a 777? FA's seated in the tail?
 
Yesterday my plan was to park at the Headlands and bike across the Golden Gate to Pacifica and back. At the last minute I decided I didn't want to deal with SF traffic and did a Napa to Calistoga ride instead.

Had I gone my planned route, I would have been in San Bruno at right about that time, and probably would have seen the crash. It overlooks the airport.
 
AdamZ said:
How in tarnation would someone get ejected from a 777? FA's seated in the tail?
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Their seat was torn loose, they didn't have seat belt fastened and fell out, they were attached to the section that tore off, for a few.

"Ejection" is non aviator talk I would guess for any of those. :dunno:

Cheers
 
I thought that it looked like the rear pressure bulkhead was in place but torn. I am surprised that anyone was ejected. The deccelleration would have tended to impel people forward. Would the cabin still have been pressurized?
 
RogerT said:
I don't know about fuel freezing .. but hasn't there been a couple issues with throttle response on final on those?
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None of which I am aware.
 
Anyone know if and how long we will "hold" the flight crew? I remember a book I read years ago where a foreign airline scrapes the plane in after some mid air acrobatics of some sort that harm or kill a passenger, and the first thing the flight crew did was get on a plane back to the mother country before the NTSB could lay their hands on them.
 
This was a bad deal However, also very fortunate in that if they had been a little lower and a little shorter and plowed into the seawall head on it would have been much worse. I'm not a accident investigator and could clearly see the scenario that the pilot planned poorly and came up short. On the other hand could it be that he had a down draft or wake turbulence and he actually saved the day in a sense by not slamming the wall?
 
I read the same book, but I believe it was fiction and IIRC a kid was flying at the time the passengers were killed. :dunno:

Pjsmith said:
Anyone know if and how long we will "hold" the flight crew? I remember a book I read years ago where a foreign airline scrapes the plane in after some mid air acrobatics of some sort that harm or kill a passenger, and the first thing the flight crew did was get on a plane back to the mother country before the NTSB could lay their hands on them.
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Might the landing distance required contribute to a scenario in which the plane is at higher risk from sink over the water?
 
Re: 777 down SFO

RoscoeT said:
Somebody please inform the FAA and NTSB that a POA keyboard captain has negated the need for their presence. BTW, what is your experience flying 777's, and your knowledge of this accident?
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If you knew nothing about the 777 or this accident, the odds would still favor the cause being pilot error.

We will see when the investigation completes what was the most likely cause. But in any accident these days the better than even money is on pilot error.


Here is some data supporting that http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm
 
SCCutler said:
None of which I am aware.
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AA299 - MIA-LAX on 28 Feb 2008. 777-200ER with Trents. It was 2,000 AGL when the left engine did not respond to autothrottle commands for approximately 15 seconds.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...7-engine-fails-to-respond-to-throttle-221923/

Delta had an incident as well. The BA and DL incident prompted the release of a safety recommendation related to the fuel oil heat exchanger.

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/2009/A09_17_18.pdf

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
A few of us criticized media accounts saying the aircraft cartwheeled. This photo indicates perhaps the aircraft did get a wing up as it yawed to the left. That might also explain how the left engine was torn loose and apparently crossed under the aircraft in its trajectory to the right side of the runway.

PlaneSkid.jpg


If it had gone over like the UAL 232 crash in Sioux City the outcome would have been far more serious.

Judging from the debris field and photos of the fuselage at rest before the fire propagated, it appears the aircraft struck the seawall just aft of the main gear. The fuselage bottom appears to be torn out.

There is a ULD container on the runway near the left engine, and baggage is strewn about it. This suggests the aircraft's fuselage was opened up and the yawing spin (or whatever you want to call it) was pretty violent as these items ended up far away from the aircraft's trajectory and final resting place.

These can be seen in the hi-res photo posted earlier.

http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/R..._GM1E9770NWQ01_RTRMADP_3_USA-CRASH-ASIANA.JPG
 
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X3 Skier said:
Their seat was torn loose, they didn't have seat belt fastened and fell out, they were attached to the section that tore off, for a few.

"Ejection" is non aviator talk I would guess for any of those. :dunno:

Cheers
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Eject: to throw out forcefully; to expel. Ejection is everyone talk for getting thrown out of something forcefully.

Unless they walked under their own power from the plane and died spontaneously, eject would be the appropriate way to describe what happened here.

Cheers.
 
PilotAlan said:
From the picture, here's what it looks like:

The LEFT engine went off the RIGHT ride of the runway

The airplane spun counterclockwise about 310 degrees

The right engine is the one against the right side of the fuselage (I know that seems intuitive, but never assume)

The airplane was significantly off centerline when it struck the seawall

Initial impressions, and they could be wrong. I am not an aircraft investigator, but I was a traffic homicide investigator for 15 years.
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Alan, how do you account for the nose gear trail left in the high res picture? It looks like the plane yawed ~30 degrees to the left, departed the runway, yawed back to centerline, and yawed another ~30-45 degrees to the right before coming to rest in the final position.

Cheers.
 
The story from a witness passenger, evidently in another airliner, says there was turbulence that they had to deal with.

As my plane landed in SF we hit some turbulence & our plane jolted to the left, turning about 30 degrees before we quickly straightened out-barely making our landing, taking a sharp left & skidding to a stop on the strip between 2 runways. Just as we pulled perpendicular to the incoming runway, we looked up to the left & saw a huge plane (an off duty pilot riding as a passenger on my flight said it was a 777) literally drop from the sky & slam into the ground, almost bouncing it hit so hard. It threw an engine into the center divider that bursted into flames, before the plane turned sideways off the runway & slid until it came to a stop in the dirt. It quickly went up in flames towards the center of the plane

http://www.ferndaleenterprise.com/category/blog/
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It sure looked like the weather was CAVU. How could they have wind shear?
 
mikea said:
The story from a witness passenger, evidently in another airliner, says there was turbulence that they had to deal with.



It sure looked like the weather was CAVU. How could they have wind shear?
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Sounds more like an overly dramatized description of an normal "hard" landing
 
mikea said:
The story from a witness passenger, evidently in another airliner, says there was turbulence that they had to deal with.



It sure looked like the weather was CAVU. How could they have wind shear?
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Upwind mountains.

I hit some light bumps in a 172RG a few hours later passing KSFO, but it really wasn't enough even to get me off my assigned heading and altitude (NorCal was restricting, presumably in lieu of a TFR).
 
I don't have a clue. The idea of fleeing the scene is generally reserved for countries where it is considered a criminal act to crash a plane.



Pjsmith said:
Anyone know if and how long we will "hold" the flight crew? I remember a book I read years ago where a foreign airline scrapes the plane in after some mid air acrobatics of some sort that harm or kill a passenger, and the first thing the flight crew did was get on a plane back to the mother country before the NTSB could lay their hands on them.
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astanley said:
Alan, how do you account for the nose gear trail left in the high res picture? It looks like the plane yawed ~30 degrees to the left, departed the runway, yawed back to centerline, and yawed another ~30-45 degrees to the right before coming to rest in the final position.

Cheers.
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That wave-shaped mark is characteristic of rotation. Imagine the aircraft turning around the center, and that nose gear trail as its relative position moves around the center of rotation.

Imagine a spinning car sliding down the road. The center of rotation is the center of the car. As the car spins, the tires are rotating around the center of the car.
As you look at the skids, they leave a mark like a sine wave, but the vehicle was moving is a straight line and rotating.

Another thing, with the landing gear gone (like a car with the wheels locked up or that is on its roof), a rotating body will continue to rotate in the same direction unless it strikes something that changes its rotational moment.

With no rudder and no gear, and on a smooth runway, it is highly unlikely that the aircraft yawed, cancelled the rotational energy and then began rotating in the other direction, then cancelled that energy and began accelerating back the other direction.
An aircraft with a functioning tail and intact landing gear might, possibly, be able to accomplish that. But this aircraft was not.

Edit: Were's a good video of a car spinning out with visible skid marks. If you watch it, try to isolate one wheel, and see what that skid would look like by itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwlPe2to548
 
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AdamZ said:
How in tarnation would someone get ejected from a 777? FA's seated in the tail?
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State broadcaster China Central Television has identified the two killed as Ye Mengyuan and Wang Linjia, both 16-year-old students of Jiangshan Middle School in eastern China. Witnesses say their plane struck a seawall at the end of the runway before skidding and catching fire, injuring 182 on board.

Chinese students Ye Mengyuan and Wang Linjia were killed when their Boeing 777 crash landed in San Francisco on Saturday, injuring 182 other passengers. Medics told CNN they discovered the girls’ bodies on the runway next to the burning plane that was seen without its tail and parts of its roof upon landing.
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ntified-chinese-schoolgirls-article-1.1392130

The bodies of the two teenage victims were found on the runway, said San Francisco Fire Chief Joanne Hayes-White. It was not clear whether they had been pulled from the plane or ejected.
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http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-airplane-crash-students-20130707,0,66810.story
 
... and one more:

San Mateo County Coroner Robert Foucrault said Sunday that the preliminary investigation found that the plane's pilot had clearance to land. He said the plane was on the runway when it hit the back end and started to break apart.

One of the teenagers was apparently ejected at that time and her body was recovered on the runway, near the wreckage of the tail section of the plane. The second girl was found about 30 feet west of the plane, near the left wing, some distance from the tail section.

"We are going to do our examination of the victims today - hopefully we'll get some questions about what happened," Foucrault said.
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http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Victims-in-crash-identified-as-two-teens-4650990.php
 
"We are going to do our examination of the victims today - hopefully we'll get some questions about what happened," Foucrault said.
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Ummm... They were flung out of an airplane about 30' up and well over 100mph onto hard ground. Save the money on the examination.

Cause of death- airplane crash.
 
I'm still trying to fathom how this could have happened given the benign weather. Back in the Dark Ages when I was learning to fly Orville, or maybe it was Wilbur, told me to pick a spot on the runway and watch it to gauge my glide path. I'm sure we all learned the same thing. I've never flown anything close to a 777 in size, a HC-130 being the largest thing I have been trusted with, but that trick works in them and I suspect it works in 777s as well. It seems to me that this is looking more and more like a lack of basic airmanship a la Air France 330.
 
Dav8or said:
Ummm... They were flung out of an airplane about 30' up and well over 100mph onto hard ground. Save the money on the examination.

Cause of death- airplane crash.
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Thing is, I never saw any holes large enough for a person to get "ejected" through.

Still dubious.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Thing is, I never saw any holes large enough for a person to get "ejected" through.
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Remember a hole was made big enough for a baggage pod to end up on the runway. We can only see the top half of the airplane.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Thing is, I never saw any holes large enough for a person to get "ejected" through.

Still dubious.
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I bet they came out the bottom since it was torn off/ ground down..


Edit............ Looking at the Hi res pic.....

One body is directly behind the fuselage about 30 feet,,,, The other one looks to be in front of the left wing and next to the paved path... :dunno:

I can understand the one in back... The other one is in an unusual place for being ejected..:dunno:...... That is assuming the yellow sheets are covering the victims..:rolleyes2:
 
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Threefingeredjack said:
I'm still trying to fathom how this could have happened given the benign weather.
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I can see it. (Keep in mind, this is just a scenario of what COULD have happened. I am not saying that this is what happened.)

If the plane was a bit high, and a bit fast, I can see the crew pulling the power to flight idle to try to get back on glidepath. Now, keep in mind that it takes X amount of time for the engines to spool up from flight idle. That is engine dependent. The Pratts on the 777 spool up relatively quickly, but it still takes some time.

So now, the plane is coming up on glidepath, but that is happening at about 100 feet or so. The crew pushes up the throttles but due to the spool up time, the plane sinks below the glidepath. The crew pushes up the power more and just as the engines finally do spool up, the plane hits the sea wall.

That could account for what one passenger observed and that is the power coming up as or before they hit the wall.

Again, it is what COULD have happened, not necessarily what DID happen.

At UAL we have a policy that the power must be up preferably by 1500 feet, but no lower than 1000 feet. If the power is not up by 1000 feet, it is a mandatory go around. It is all part of the stabilized approach criteria.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I can see it. (Keep in mind, this is just a scenario of what COULD have happened. I am not saying that this is what happened.)

If the plane was a bit high, and a bit fast, I can see the crew pulling the power to flight idle to try to get back on glidepath. Now, keep in mind that it takes X amount of time for the engines to spool up from flight idle. That is engine dependent. The Pratts on the 777 spool up relatively quickly, but it still takes some time.

So now, the plane is coming up on glidepath, but that is happening at about 100 feet or so. The crew pushes up the throttles but due to the spool up time, the plane sinks below the glidepath. The crew pushes up the power more and just as the engines finally do spool up, the plane hits the sea wall.

That could account for what one passenger observed and that is the power coming up as or before they hit the wall.

Again, it is what COULD have happened, not necessarily what DID happen.
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I sorta envisioned that. I was going to ask ya, Greg if they could have been caught on the back end of the power curve and couldn't get the power up in time for a go around.

Sully is saying that the Glideslope was OTS as it's being moved. That with some saying that these guys always made shallow approaches to make smooth landings....

News:Capt. Chesley Sullenberger: S.F. airport construction possible factor in crash


Sullenberger, the famed Bay Area pilot who landed the "Miracle on the Hudson" flight, said the construction might have been a contributing factor impacting landings at the facility. He said that the FAA-mandated construction is intended to increase the safety zone of the runway by moving it farther away from the seawall near where the plane crash landed.
...
"It's too early to say if (the construction) is going to be a factor in this case, but it certainly is something they'd be looking at," Sullenberger said.
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