Rent Vs. Buy

jdennis1989

jdennis1989

Pre-takeoff checklist
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jdennis1989
I know this topic has probably been brought up before a million times, so delete it if I am beating a dead horse here.

I am halfway done with my PPL and I spend time on my breaks at work looking at sites like trade a plane, just browsing the planes. Hey it's ok to window shop right? My question is, if you were in my situation would you rent or buy after I get my license.

My truck is paid off, so buying would be like my car payment.
I have a lot of free time and would want fly twice a week.
Renting wouldn't have to worry about service, parts, hanger, ect.
Renting would not garentee that I could fly often, or go on trips and take friends and family up.

It's just me, so no family to be mindful of making such a huge purchase.
I don't think I would feel comfortable spending more than 35k tops, so we are talking an old bird.
 
In most (not all) cases, it is cheaper to rent than own.

So why do folks still own their own planes:

You can't rent it. Hard to find much more than basis trainers for rent.

Pride of ownership. You can't stand someone else flying your plane.

Control. You know everything that goes on with your plane.

Convenience. It's ready when you are. Keep it as long as you want.
 
Plenty of good capable airplanes within reach of $35k in the current market.

Some of the questions you should ask are

-Do you have the available cash reserve though to deal with maintenance problems that may arise? Airplane maintenance is a whole lot more expensive than cars.
-What is the availability of rentals within your area?
-Will you really have the time to fly at least 100 hrs per year? There are always exceptions here and there, but 100 hrs per year is generally considered the 'break even' point where it is cheaper to own than rent.

Those are some of the big financial points to consider when decided between owning and renting. Obviously, there are plenty of good personal reasons to own an airplane that will vary from person to person.
 
Not enough information for me to answer.

What type of plane are you looking for?
What type of flying do you intend to do? $100 hamburgers, long cross countries, fun in the air??? how many passengers??? IFR in the future???
You say you are looking to spend $35k. Is that for the plane and not for the required other stuff, prebuy, insurance, squawk list, needed equipment, hangar, additional training if necessary, etc. Is that the loan and if so how much per month can you afford for the other additional expenses?

I own, and can tell you it is cheaper to rent. Not including the cost of the airplane(paid off) it costs me about $150 per hour to fly the plane. My hourly figure has gone down since I first purchased the plane(a 2007 T182T) but one bad engine issue can change that pretty quickly. My hourly cost includes maintenance, training(IFR, and about 10 hours of commercial), hangar, fuel, oil, insurance, database upgrades, IFR charts, etc.
 
It simply depends on how many hours a year you fly. As a rule of thumb, the typical breakpoint is about 150 hours.

That said, in many cases you can't rent the kind of plane you may need to accomplish your mission, which skews the numbers. As stated before, you need to fully define your mission and expectations in order to get a reasonably accurate answer.
 
douglas393 said:
I own, and can tell you it is cheaper to rent. Not including the cost of the airplane(paid off) it costs me about $150 per hour to fly the plane.
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Cheaper to rent???

Not that many places where you can rent a 2007 T182T for less than $150/hr. Heck, in some parts of the country, 172 rental prices are approaching that.
 
I flew less than 150 hours last year, but it is nice to be able to "move in" to an owned airplane. Headsets stay right there, the handheld radio is always in the passenger seat's rear pocket, the pens, pencils, control lock stay in the glove box, my sunglasses always handy.

Very different from lugging the flight bag between airplanes in the rental fleet, and making sure to completely move out after every flight.

Nice to keep the airplane in a hangar, with room to park the car. The airplane stays so nice and shiny when kept out of the elements.

While it's fun to occasionally fly different airplanes, not so much to keep flying different Skyhawks, trying to remember how the different audio panels function.

Flying the same airplane is comforting as you get to know it.
No "Is that funny noise normal?". Nice to know what to expect when taking off as you were the last person to fly it. Also fun to help with the annual inspection, getting to know your bird's inner workings.

Renting may be cheaper, but I don't fly to save money.
I save money to fly.
 
Sac Arrow said:
As a rule of thumb, the typical breakpoint is about 150 hours.
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There are probably a handful of types where that is true, but 150 hrs is a bit high in general. As long as you do your due dilligence on the pre-buy and find a well maintained airplane, most common GA airplanes will break even between 75 and 125 hrs per year.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Cheaper to rent???

Not that many places where you can rent a 2007 T182T for less than $150/hr. Heck, in some parts of the country, 172 rental prices are approaching that.
Click to expand...

I was Quoted $125 wet for a 172 :(

jdennis1989 said:
I know this topic has probably been brought up before a million times, so delete it if I am beating a dead horse here.

I am halfway done with my PPL and I spend time on my breaks at work looking at sites like trade a plane, just browsing the planes. Hey it's ok to window shop right? My question is, if you were in my situation would you rent or buy after I get my license.

My truck is paid off, so buying would be like my car payment.
I have a lot of free time and would want fly twice a week.
Renting wouldn't have to worry about service, parts, hanger, ect.
Renting would not garentee that I could fly often, or go on trips and take friends and family up.

It's just me, so no family to be mindful of making such a huge purchase.
I don't think I would feel comfortable spending more than 35k tops, so we are talking an old bird.
Click to expand...

If I had bought years ago when I was in your shoes I would be flying today because the plane would be PAID OFF by now. Instead I'm just wishing I was flying and now loaded down with bills. What about finding a owner who is looking for a partner for his current plane. Not a bad deal if you can find the right owner. AOPA has a partnership section with lists of people interested. For me a club with several planes would be much better. Do you have any clubs around?
 
Thank you all for your input so far. It is really giving me some things to think about.

Non Compos Mentis said:
I flew less than 150 hours last year, but it is nice to be able to "move in" to an owned airplane. Headsets stay right there, the handheld radio is always in the passenger seat's rear pocket, the pens, pencils, control lock stay in the glove box, my sunglasses always handy.

Very different from lugging the flight bag between airplanes in the rental fleet, and making sure to completely move out after every flight.

Nice to keep the airplane in a hangar, with room to park the car. The airplane stays so nice and shiny when kept out of the elements.

While it's fun to occasionally fly different airplanes, not so much to keep flying different Skyhawks, trying to remember how the different audio panels function.

Flying the same airplane is comforting as you get to know it.
No "Is that funny noise normal?". Nice to know what to expect when taking off as you were the last person to fly it. Also fun to help with the annual inspection, getting to know your bird's inner workings.

Renting may be cheaper, but I don't fly to save money.
I save money to fly.
Click to expand...

That's how I feel, I am spending on average 600 dollars on lessons a month right now. It's something I wanted to do since I was a kid, and now I am in the right situation to go after that dream.

Non Compos Mentis said:
If I had bought years ago when I was in your shoes I would be flying today because the plane would be PAID OFF by now. Instead I'm just wishing I was flying and now loaded down with bills. What about finding a owner who is looking for a partner for his current plane. Not a bad deal if you can find the right owner. AOPA has a partnership section with lists of people interested. For me a club with several planes would be much better. Do you have any clubs around?
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking. I am only 23 and every payment I make on said plane would be an investment in my eyes. Throw $150 bucks away at a rental every hour of flight, or get most of it back when I decide to sell and get something else 5-10 years down the road.

You guys are helping a lot. I tend to forget about the maintenance expenses when I window shop lol. There is no fleet to choose from at my airport, and no open partial ownerships that I know of(would love this option). The only two rentals I know of are my CFI's 172 that I am training in and his twin engine cessna.
 
Foxhole said:
I was Quoted $125 wet for a 172 :(



If I had bought years ago when I was in your shoes I would be flying today because the plane would be PAID OFF by now. Instead I'm just wishing I was flying and now loaded down with bills. What about finding a owner who is looking for a partner for his current plane. Not a bad deal if you can find the right owner. AOPA has a partnership section with lists of people interested. For me a club with several planes would be much better. Do you have any clubs around?
Click to expand...

You still have to maintain the thing...

I'm in a partnership with my present plane. Works out great. When I fully owned my plane it was just too much to absorb as a single owner.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Cheaper to rent???

Not that many places where you can rent a 2007 T182T for less than $150/hr. Heck, in some parts of the country, 172 rental prices are approaching that.
Click to expand...
True, but that does not include the 300K+ I have invested in the plane, and I fly over 150 hrs a year. Whether I get that back when I sell the plane I do not know. Also I have no mortgage payments. The interest on the note increase the 150 dollar figure quite a lot.
 
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Buy and don't look at the checks you write.

I probably wouldn't fly if I rented.

$35K will buy a legit ride.
 
Don't overlook shared ownership arrangements. Good ones can provide you access to a better aircraft than you could afford to buy/keep on your own.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Cheaper to rent???

Not that many places where you can rent a 2007 T182T for less than $150/hr. Heck, in some parts of the country, 172 rental prices are approaching that.
Click to expand...

I only have 1 plane to rent in a 60 mile radius. It is a 2000 172sp and it goes wet for.........$140/hr. It is no frills either, no auto pilot, just your normal six pack, and standard ifr, oh and a few small things broke.

I'm considering buying as well but we will see. I know ultimately it probably is cheaper to rent as once I pay I wash my hands clean and don't worry about a thing. Which is nice. But it is hard always fighting to get the plane when I want it as well. Total ownership does seems rather um...expensive.
 
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What happens when they bounce?

bartmc said:
Buy and don't look at the checks you write.

I probably wouldn't fly if I rented.

$35K will buy a legit ride.
Click to expand...
 
AggieMike88 said:
Don't overlook shared ownership arrangements. Good ones can provide you access to a better aircraft than you could afford to buy/keep on your own.
Click to expand...

If I can find one I would do it in a heartbeat, guess I'll have to wait and see.
 
365 days/year, assume avg daylight is 10 hours, or 3,650 daylight hours per year. Avg GA pilot flies less than 100 hours per year, but assume double that number for talking purposes. Why would any pilot ever buy all of a plane under those circumstances?

simtech said:
I only have 1 plane to rent in a 60 mile radius. It is a 2000 172sp and it goes wet for.........$140/hr. It is no frills either, no auto pilot, just your normal six pack, and standard ifr, oh and a few small things broke.

I'm considering buying as well but we will see. I know ultimately it probably is cheaper to rent as once I pay I wash my hands clean and don't worry about a thing. Which is nice. But it is hard always fighting to get the plane when I want it as well. Total ownership does seems rather um...expensive.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
365 days/year, assume avg daylight is 10 hours, or 3,650 daylight hours per year. Avg GA pilot flies less than 100 hours per year, but assume double that number for talking purposes. Why would any pilot ever buy all of a plane under those circumstances?
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, I have more thoughts of owning than I do of renting forever. Just having it when I want it is worth it. And not having to pay for 3 hours a day when on a trip, even if I don't fly it.
 
How much of the $35k is cash? I wouldn't drag too much debt behind me for any reason other than maybe buying a house. That's like buying a luxury car with no warranty. That monthly payment won't bug you until you're paying it AND some major repair and unless Yoda's doing your pre-buy, there's a level of risk. Then again, if you decide you want a 172, find the "Yoda" of 172s and pay him to help you shop. That should save you some anxiety...and dough.
 
jdennis1989 said:
Throw $150 bucks away at a rental every hour of flight, or get most of it back when I decide to sell and get something else 5-10 years down the road.
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You are not throwing away the $150 bucks. You are paying for flexibility and reduced financial risk. When renting, you have the flexibility of adjusting how much money you spend on the airplane each month. If you own, the hangar bill needs to be payed each month no matter how much you fly. Same goes for the annual inspection. You are also paying for someone else to take the maintenance risk. That unexpected $10k maintenance bill is not your problem. Same goes for any costs associated with ADs.

Ryan
 
Shared ownership makes some sense fiscally if you're flying enough.

Single ownership is a little difficult to swallow unless you're paying cash and not expecting it all back.

Renting is fine for low numbers of hours or if you don't have pockets deep enough to fix a major failure or impending failure of say, an engine.

All have pluses and minuses.

The numbers can easily be put into a spreadsheet for a break-even analysis if your goal is to save money or own a (generally depreciating) asset. Just sit down with a calculator and a pencil to answer those questions.

Answering the questions of how much the various perks are to you (having the keys in your pocket, easy scheduling, taking better care of the aircraft than your rental club or leaseback owners do, getting final say in maintenance and upgrades, etc...) aren't so easy to quantify, unless you really know yourself.

If you do, you can rate those things also against your own goals and values.

If you like one method of showing the monetary reality... consider that as a single-owner, $600/mo would mean not flying for a month or two to pay for just a typical Annual Inspection and things found to fix, plus regular maintenance, on many "reasonably priced" aircraft, assuming you did no authorized work yourself... if $600/mo is all you can afford. Longer if you're paying an aircraft loan. Some months when all is ticking along perfectly, you'd fly a little more than the rental, perhaps.

Let's just use round numbers... and say super good clean Skyhawk is $40,000. You take out a loan for 10 years at 8% interest. That's a monthly payment of $485.31 before you have even started covering required inspections, maintenance, and consumables.

How many hours do you have to fly to make that loan payment seem reasonable against the cost of renting?

Or put another way... That $600/mo is covering all of their expenses and maybe a tiny profit for them to rent the airplane to you for X hours a month (you didn't say). Calculate up the purchase price, and all the other costs in a spreadsheet of buying and pro-rate that out to an hourly number. Can you beat their hourly number? How many hours do you have to fly to have the cost lines cross?

My number was roughly 4 hours a month not counting the initial "buy-in" capital to my co-ownership. I considered that money "sunk costs", but I included all other normal MX and hangar costs including engine fund build money we include as a variable cost to co-owners by the hour.

The number has never been that, and trends closer to 5 hours a month. Fuel prices have pushed it up. I'd say 5 hours a month is easily now my "break-even" point, perhaps even that is low. If I'm not flying 5 hours a month, I'd save money renting.

Granted, that is on a 182... dirt simple systems, easy to maintain, gas hog engine if you want to get somewhere "today" not "maybe tomorrow", etc.

Run the numbers first, they may dictate your course of action.
 
Having owned several planes, it DOES NOT make financial sense to buy an airplane, actually it doesn't make financial sense to fly. The old saying "If it flies, floats or fornicates, it's cheaper to rent it" applies. That being said its a nice feeling to have YOUR airplane in the hangar. :D
With a $35K budget, I would advise you to look for a partnership or club, get your feet wet and see what your usage and costs will be without being 100% on the hook for any surprises.:D
Good luck and welcome to the addiction!
 
I wonder if there is a recurring "Should I fall in love or keep seeing whores?" thread on the Fornicators of America board?
 
The biggest unknown of aircraft ownership is the unexpected big ticket item like an engine overhaul or an expensive annual. If you could handle something like that, you're good. If not (and I was there myself), it sucks to watch your plane sit while you're recovering financially.

In other words, it sucks to watch the plane you rent sitting waiting to get fixed. It sucks more to be paying the bill.
 
jdennis1989 said:
If I can find one I would do it in a heartbeat, guess I'll have to wait and see.
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Why wait? I'll bet there are a dozen pilots within driving distance that are saying the same thing. Find a couple of other people that are interested and start your own. There is a lot of information on how to do this. Check out AOPA resources.

If you join a club you will have to conform to their rules. If you and two or three others get together you can write your own rules (with assistance from people that experienced with this).

If I was single and flexible with my flight schedule, that is exactly what I would do. But my wife is a pilot and we love to fly together whenever we can. And she would never put up with someone else moving her things around.

But I sure did wish I had someone else to help me pay that $33k for the engine swap after our catastrophic, in-flight engine failure and highway landing about a year after we bought ours.
 
I've co-owned more than 20 planes since 1864 and still have one that's been in place sicne 1982, and can count on one hand the number of times I couldn't go when I wanted. Airplanes are horribly under-utilized (after the "new" wears off which normally takes about three credit-card billing cycles for the gas bills to appear) and access problems are not a big problem. In fact, many co-owned planes suffer the same lack of use issues as single-owner planes.

The added daily cost you're complaining about is chump-change compared to any ownership cost. Don't make a decision based on the money you'll save by eliminating it.



simtech said:
Don't get me wrong, I have more thoughts of owning than I do of renting forever. Just having it when I want it is worth it. And not having to pay for 3 hours a day when on a trip, even if I don't fly it.
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wabower said:
I've co-owned more than 20 planes since 1864 and still have one that's been in place sicne 1982, and can count on one hand the number of times I couldn't go when I wanted. Airplanes are horribly under-utilized (after the "new" wears off which normally takes about three credit-card billing cycles for the gas bills to appear) and access problems are not a big problem. In fact, many co-owned planes suffer the same lack of use issues as single-owner planes.

The added daily cost you're complaining about is chump-change compared to any ownership cost. Don't make a decision based on the money you'll save by eliminating it.
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1864, damn you're older than I thought! Not by much? :rofl::rofl:
 
catmandu said:
I wonder if there is a recurring "Should I fall in love or keep seeing whores?" thread on the Fornicators of America board?
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If you ask some of my friends that have been married 2 or 3 times they may have a strong opinion. :dunno: I'm still with my starter wife.:yes:
 
I hate the concept that "renting is throwing money away". It isnt , you are paying for reduced financial risk and convenient use of someone else's assets. No one ever considers buying a car instead of renting when they go out of town for a week, those prices are pretty high too.
 
I think you really have to take a step back and look at your mission. Where wil you be going? How long will you be gone? You want to fly across the country for a week regularly? Renting probably isn't the best thing for you. But if you plan on making a $100 hamburger run once or twice a month it may be better suited for you. For my boyfriend and I, we like to get in the airplane without thinking about it and fly to Vegas for a couple days, or California, or wherever. I flew around 200 hours last year, and he flew around 180. I also did my instrument and commercial in our 182RG, and although it probably didn't pay for itself on the instrument (was likely the same as renting) it sure did on the commercial so I didn't have to rent an expensive Arrow. But in my instrument training I had to fix a broken steering bungee and a fuel leak. In the commercial I had to get a new main tire. Now during my CFI I had to replace the spinner backplate.

We also enjoy having no rules for our airplane, aside from telling each other where we're going and how long we'll be gone. We can go out at night, IFR, in the mountains wherever we are comfortable with. Granted we're not out at night in hard IFR going through the mountains but some flight schools don't allow night flying if you don't do it every couple weeks, and some don't allow flying in IMC at all even with an instrument rating. To me, that's a wasted rating, but hey not my plane. That's why I have mine.

Some of the downsides are that you can't just grab another airplane from the fleet when yours breaks. You're grounded. You're also about to pay $$$ for whatever you found broken. You need to keep up with your own MX records, AD's etc because it's now your butt on the line, not some 141 school. If you break, you could be at an unfamiliar airport and then that's whole extra thing. But at the end of the day, I love my airplane and I wouldn't have it any other way. Never thought that a Cessna would join the ranks of the cars in my household as members of the family, but she did. :)
 
wabower said:
The added daily cost you're complaining about is chump-change compared to any ownership cost.
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Oh for sure, I fully understand that! Writing a check and not looking back appears better when I drop $1500 at once for a weekend getaway 400 miles away. It's not really about the money and I know 1500 bucks is a drop in the hat for ownership but...well...flying ain't cheap and I knew that going in. :yes:

I guess I should just write the rental check and not look back.:)
 
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I agree.. find a mentor to guide you and try it. When you see how well it works you and your members may want to add another plane to the fleet.

JOhnH said:
Why wait? I'll bet there are a dozen pilots within driving distance that are saying the same thing. Find a couple of other people that are interested and start your own. There is a lot of information on how to do this. Check out AOPA resources.

If you join a club you will have to conform to their rules. If you and two or three others get together you can write your own rules (with assistance from people that experienced with this).

If I was single and flexible with my flight schedule, that is exactly what I would do. But my wife is a pilot and we love to fly together whenever we can. And she would never put up with someone else moving her things around.

But I sure did wish I had someone else to help me pay that $33k for the engine swap after our catastrophic, in-flight engine failure and highway landing about a year after we bought ours.
Click to expand...
 
AggieMike88 said:
Don't overlook shared ownership arrangements. Good ones can provide you access to a better aircraft than you could afford to buy/keep on your own.
Click to expand...

+1. I have gone sole ownership and two-way, three-way and four-way partnerships. Three-way is optimal from cost-effectiveness standpoint. The reality is with sole ownership or even one partner the plane will sit idle most of the time. A happy airplane is one flown frequently...and ultimately cheaper to own.

If flying less than 50 hrs a year definitely cheaper to rent, but there are huge benefits to being able to open the hangar door on a known quantity whenever you feel like flying for reasons well-articulated above.
 
jdennis1989 said:
That's what I was thinking. I am only 23 and every payment I make on said plane would be an investment in my eyes. Throw $150 bucks away at a rental every hour of flight, or get most of it back when I decide to sell and get something else 5-10 years down the road.

You guys are helping a lot. I tend to forget about the maintenance expenses when I window shop lol. There is no fleet to choose from at my airport, and no open partial ownerships that I know of(would love this option). The only two rentals I know of are my CFI's 172 that I am training in and his twin engine cessna.
Click to expand...

Not sure I agree with the investment part of the angle. I flew my 172 for two years and did get the initial cash back that I paid for the plane, but there were some maintenance costs, fixed costs, and fuel so it certainly wasn't an investment.

It wound up being cheaper than a rental for the hours I flew, but that's because there were no major problems. If there had been, it would've been much more expensive than renting.

I do know of several rental/club options, but none at Brazoria County, where you're at.

At Houston Southwest, one of the flight schools on the field rents their Arrow. They used to have a Warrior too, but am unsure if they sold it. They also rent the LSA's they use as trainers.

http://www.successaviation.com/arsuccess/location.html

Pearland airport has a flight club, of which I'm a member. They've got 8 planes over there and getting one is not really an issue, even though they've got about 200 members. It's rather reasonable as well. Hourly wet rates are a little steep, but dues are only $22 bucks a month. That would probably make it worth a 45 mile drive for you...

http://www.bayareaaeroclub.org/

Finally, there is an LSA school also at Houston Southwest. I know one of the owners, he's a really nice guy. It's an LSA, but it's better than walking! :D They rent them as well.

http://www.houstonlsa.com/

If you're willing to deal with some tire kickers, as well as a few desperate folks who will ask you to let them fly your plane while making payments to you (yeah right:no:), I would be surprised if you didn't find a suitable partner with a craigslist ad, or an ad on AOPA.

If I can answer any questions for you, feel free to PM me. I went through these decisions a couple years ago and did hours of research. When I rented the 235 from the Pearland flying club, I'd fly my 172 over, and pick up the plane. It worked, but wasn't ideal (obviously).

You've got options, but all options have tradeoffs.
 
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