Northrop F-5 and Douglas A-4

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tomdocherty72

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tomdocherty72
Can anyone point me in the right direction to make contact with pilots who flew the Northrop F-5 and the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk. A google search for relevant forums or groups drew a blank.

Thanks.
 
Just as a thought, if you can find some units that operated the aircraft, those squadrons will probably have records going back to when they flew those planes.
 
There are adversary squadrons that still fly the F-5 and contractors that fly the A-4.
 
Did the US have any F5 squadrons? I thought that the US only used the T-38 version. Big problem for Northrup. If it wasn't good enough for the US military, what foreign military was going to buy it?
 
Graueradler said:
Did the US have any F5 squadrons? I thought that the US only used the T-38 version. Big problem for Northrup. If it wasn't good enough for the US military, what foreign military was going to buy it?
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Yes. The F5 was used with moderate success, mostly as a close air support a/c during the Vietnam conflict.
 
tomdocherty72 said:
Can anyone point me in the right direction to make contact with pilots who flew the Northrop F-5 and the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk. A google search for relevant forums or groups drew a blank.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Collings Foundation in Houston has a TA-4J that they fly from time to time. I'm sure that their guys know others in the A-4 community.
 
I know several guys that currently fly the F-5E. I also know plenty of older/senior folks who flew the TA-4J while in flight school. What are you looking for?
 
Graueradler said:
Did the US have any F5 squadrons? I thought that the US only used the T-38 version. Big problem for Northrup. If it wasn't good enough for the US military, what foreign military was going to buy it?
Click to expand...

USN and USMC currently have several squadrons:

VFC-111 at NAS Key West (USN)
VFC-13 at NAS Fallon (USN)
VMFT-401 at MCAS Yuma (USMC)

Back in the old days, TOPGUN/NFWS flew them, as well as the Red Eagles of the USAF (the secret MIG squadron of the 70's/80's).

All of these are fleet adversary units, not not truly operational, but they are squadrons no less.
 
Doggtyred said:
Collings Foundation in Houston has a TA-4J that they fly from time to time. I'm sure that their guys know others in the A-4 community.
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There is a guy on WIX (Warbird Information Exchange) who I believe is one of the CF TA-4J pilots. If that is the kind of person you are looking for, let me know and I'll see if I can get his name.
 
Fearless Tower said:
There is a guy on WIX (Warbird Information Exchange) who I believe is one of the CF TA-4J pilots. If that is the kind of person you are looking for, let me know and I'll see if I can get his name.
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And on that note, you could also register over on the CJAA website (Classic Jet Association of America). Tons of jet warbird pilots over there and a really good technical forum on all things about surviving as an old rich guy flying jets that want to kill you just as much as they did when their pilots were 2nd lt's
 
35 AoA said:
USN and USMC currently have several squadrons:

VFC-111 at NAS Key West (USN)
VFC-13 at NAS Fallon (USN)
VMFT-401 at MCAS Yuma (USMC)

Back in the old days, TOPGUN/NFWS flew them, as well as the Red Eagles of the USAF (the secret MIG squadron of the 70's/80's).

All of these are fleet adversary units, not not truly operational, but they are squadrons no less.
Click to expand...

The Top Gun guys used to come out to NBC with the F-5s, A-4s and F-16s every year until 401 took over in the late 90's. I was working approach one day when about 5-6 of the Sniper guys came in during bad weather. Savannah said that they had enough fuel for one approach and then that had to divert to Charleston. Every single one went missed off the PAR to rwy 5 and continued straight on to CHS. Miss those days working a variety of aircraft on approach. It's all F-18s and T-45s these days.
 
Velocity173 said:
The Top Gun guys used to come out to NBC with the F-5s, A-4s and F-16s every year until 401 took over in the late 90's. I was working approach one day when about 5-6 of the Sniper guys came in during bad weather. Savannah said that they had enough fuel for one approach and then that had to divert to Charleston. Every single one went missed off the PAR to rwy 5 and continued straight on to CHS. Miss those days working a variety of aircraft on approach. It's all F-18s and T-45s these days.
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Yeah, when I went through the RAG (out at Miramar/VMFAT-101), we regularly flew against -401 during air to air events. To the best of my knowledge, they were very nearly VFR only due to their systems or lack thereof. Not surprising that they had issues on the PAR......fast, no gas, and basically non-existent IFR avionics.

I know back in the old days, TOPGUN used to do a lot of fleet training dets, so I am guessing that is what that was. At least prior to the introduction of the east and west coast weapons schools......

That said, an F-5 is about the hardest thing to see approaching the merge that I have ever flown against. Tiny....no smoke......no anything really. Luckily they barely have a radar :)
 
Give the airport manager at Mojave Airport a call. He's ex-Navy, F-14's, etc, so probably has A-4 time as well. After the Navy he was a test pilot for Northrop Grumman and I'm pretty sure that included quite a bit of F-5 time.

His info:
Stu Witt
(661) 824 2433
info@mojaveairport.com
 
Thanks you all for the pointers to further information. I am hoping to write articles about both types for the 60th anniversary of the first flight of the A-4 and the 55th of the F-5. I am hoping to make contact with pilots who flew the types, either in training or in squadron operations/combat. I will follow up some of the suggestions.
 
Hi 35AOA,

I would be grateful for contact with any who flew the TA-4J for information on its use in training, handling qualities, likes and dislikes etc.
 
35 AoA said:
I know several guys that currently fly the F-5E. I also know plenty of older/senior folks who flew the TA-4J while in flight school. What are you looking for?
Click to expand...

I worked at NAS Kingsville for two years back in the 80's...those TA-4Js and the T-2s were tough birds.
 
Graueradler said:
Did the US have any F5 squadrons? I thought that the US only used the T-38 version. Big problem for Northrup. If it wasn't good enough for the US military, what foreign military was going to buy it?
Click to expand...

Awhile back, I read an extensive article that blamed politics for the demise of the F-5/ F-20. I put in a request to a friend to send me the link that I sent him, so I can post here. Very interesting story (and sounded believable).
 
3393RP said:
I worked at NAS Kingsville for two years back in the 80's...those TA-4Js and the T-2s were tough birds.
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The TA-4 was long gone by the time I started flight school, but I did always want to fly the T-2 just to have the experience. Sadly, they were only used in NFO/WSO training by the time I got there. That said, the T-45 was a much better trainer than the Buckeye, though from what I hear, not nearly as good as the TA-4J, both in terms of fuel/range, as well as performance. I guess that isn't surprising, considering the Skyhawk was an operational combat aircraft at one point (TA-4 version notwithstanding).
 
Jaybird180 said:
Awhile back, I read an extensive article that blamed politics for the demise of the F-5/ F-20. I put in a request to a friend to send me the link that I sent him, so I can post here. Very interesting story (and sounded believable).
Click to expand...

There is probably some truth to that, but the reality is/was that the F-20 was no better than the F-16, and the supply chain for the F-16 was already in place, so adding the F-20 to the fleet would have meant another supply type to support from a training, support, logistics standpoint. It didn't hurt that the F-16 (IIRC) shares the basic engine with the F-15 which is beneficial from a supply chain/support perspective.

I think the bottom line was that the overall system cost of a fleet of F-16's would be less than that of an equivalent mixed fleet.
 
35 AoA said:
The TA-4 was long gone by the time I started flight school, but I did always want to fly the T-2 just to have the experience. Sadly, they were only used in NFO/WSO training by the time I got there. That said, the T-45 was a much better trainer than the Buckeye, though from what I hear, not nearly as good as the TA-4J, both in terms of fuel/range, as well as performance. I guess that isn't surprising, considering the Skyhawk was an operational combat aircraft at one point (TA-4 version notwithstanding).
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Went up to the tower once to watch a T-2 take the cable. Crappy wx coming off the PAR with standing water on the runway. He snags the cable and it rips his hook right out the back! Ground says "hook skip", while I was like "no, it's sitting on the runway." Aircraft Recovery guys were expecting a Hornet not a Buckeye. :D
 
Velocity173 said:
Went up to the tower once to watch a T-2 take the cable. Crappy wx coming off the PAR with standing water on the runway. He snags the cable and it rips his hook right out the back! Ground says "hook skip", while I was like "no, it's sitting on the runway." Aircraft Recovery guys were expecting a Hornet not a Buckeye. :D
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Yeah, in the Hornet, we will take a field trap for anything equal to or greater than 1/4" of standing water on the runway. When I was at Miramar, with crappy runways that were concave in the wrong direction (as well as general flooding probelms at the field in the unusual event of heavy rain), they had a full on procedure in the field ops manual for trapping every jet coming back to the field. I never did it there, but I probably should have one time and scared myself in the process. Friend of mine cartwheeled a Hornet off the same runway in similar conditions, spinning around several times in full burner, offroading through the ditch between the runway and txwy papa, and finally coming to a stop about 1000 ft off to the north side of 24R. He only lived because the ground was too soggy for the mains and his horizontal stab to get enough friction sliding across the ground to flip him over. Luckiest guy I know. The first Hornet fatality actually occurred in almost the exact same spot in the early 1980's.......went off the runway in heavy rain, flipped, and came to rest in said ditch in a couple feet of water. Crash crew didn't yet know how to service an upside down Hornet (as this was like 1984 ish), and the guy drowned to death while they tried to get him out. Anyway, our jets don't like wet runways, I will say that much!
 
35 AoA said:
The TA-4 was long gone by the time I started flight school, but I did always want to fly the T-2 just to have the experience.
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The reason for my presence at NAS Kingsville was to construct a new test cell to replace the antiquated unit that was some thirty years old. This was in 1986. I was the general superintendent on the $3.5M contract. The test cell was capable of handling the GE F-404 engine. When the test cell was completed, I had the pleasure of observing this engine strapped down and howling at full power. It was an awesome experience.

The construction site near the approach of 13R provided great entertainment.

Some of the best flying I saw were transient departures...F-14s pulling vertical after takeoff, doing a couple of aileron rolls and up, up, up until all I could see were two orange dots that soon disappeared.

From conversations with the trainees and instructors I gathered the T-2 was a pretty damn good airplane...part of the syllabus included inverted flat spins IIRC. They sure looked stout.

Forgive me if I don't have the verbiage correct, but I want to relate a story about who is apparently actually in charge of the Navy. I had to do some work on the roof of the VT-23 hangar one night, beginning at 0200. I had cleared this with Public Works and everything was supposedly in order.

I made my way up to the third deck, where the duty desk was located. I explained my mission to the OOD, a LTJG that looked to be fourteen years old. Of course he had no idea what I was talking about, and there was no entry in the passdown log regarding my presence that night.

We parlayed back and forth a bit, and the LT was adamant I wasn't going to be allowed to do my task. It just so happened that a few days prior I had been introduced to CMC Cook, a very pleasant but no nonsense sort of fellow. :wink2:

By this time it was about 0230, and I wasn't getting anywhere. I finally threw down my hole card..."I guess we just need to call Command Master Chief Cook at home, because he is aware of my need to perform this task."

The Lieutenant's Adam's apple bobbed magnificently as his eyes got a little wider..."Well", he offered, "I guess you may proceed..."

:rofl:

For the OP, I found this resource, which may help him get the information he's looking for:

http://unitpages.military.com/reg/u...ages.military.com/unitpages/unit.do?id=202798
 
kyleb said:
There is probably some truth to that, but the reality is/was that the F-20 was no better than the F-16, and the supply chain for the F-16 was already in place, so adding the F-20 to the fleet would have meant another supply type to support from a training, support, logistics standpoint. It didn't hurt that the F-16 (IIRC) shares the basic engine with the F-15 which is beneficial from a supply chain/support perspective.

I think the bottom line was that the overall system cost of a fleet of F-16's would be less than that of an equivalent mixed fleet.
Click to expand...

Now, I really hope to het that story. It told a story of how the F-20 would have undercut the costs of the F-16 significantly, even when the F-16 was cheap ($20mill IIRC was original bid). The Tigershark was a multi-national project and at the time, Reagan (under the Republican party) needed to topedo the Carter regime on this, so Northrop mothballed the Tigershark until more favorable political times. It also told how the B-2 was a somewhat "make-up" item for hurt feelings on the F-20.

I hope I get the article.
 
I prefer to think of the B-2 as a great big middle finger aimed at the soviets :lol:
 
Velocity173 said:
He snags the cable and it rips his hook right out the back!
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Spiccoli/ "I know that dude..." /Spiccoli

Roll-coupled departures in the T-2 were an awesome sight to behold.

Nauga,
who said, "what the **** did we just do and can we do it again?"
 
nauga said:
Spiccoli/ "I know that dude..." /Spiccoli

Roll-coupled departures in the T-2 were an awesome sight to behold.

Nauga,
who said, "what the **** did we just do and can we do it again?"
Click to expand...

I have to admit that I was mildly disappointed during my RAG OCF flight in the mighty F/A-18B that I/we were completely unable to get the thing into a spin of any kind.....even with max AB on one motor, idle on the other, bullseye nose high, and full cross controls. Just swapped ends and after the nose hunted for a couple swings, it started flying away. Must have tried it 5-10 times to no avail. Kind of cool to fall backwards through a cloud of unburnt fuel, but I wouldn't say it was the best training if spin recovery was a training objective. Didn't both of the Tomcat RAG's have a dedicated T-2 OCF/departure training and/or currency syllabus? I thought I remembered seeing something like that. Sounds like it would have been a good thing.

I've also heard (or maybe read) the departure you mention was really insane and disorienting.....basically just tumbles end over end, right?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Now, I really hope to het that story. It told a story of how the F-20 would have undercut the costs of the F-16 significantly, even when the F-16 was cheap ($20mill IIRC was original bid). The Tigershark was a multi-national project and at the time, Reagan (under the Republican party) needed to topedo the Carter regime on this, so Northrop mothballed the Tigershark until more favorable political times. It also told how the B-2 was a somewhat "make-up" item for hurt feelings on the F-20.

I hope I get the article.
Click to expand...

The F-20 was completely funded by Northrop. In that sense, it was a privately funded project, not a multinational project. They hoped to sell it overseas, but were unsuccessful (despite placing a few bribes), primarily because the US purchased the F-16 instead of the F-20.

In hindsight, the USAF's choice was the right one. The F-20 airframe simply didn't have the growth potential to take on the air to ground role the F-16 has carried for the last 25 years.

Despite Northrop's claims about it being an equivalent, cheaper alternative, the CBO disagreed. Not that the CBO is always right, but the point is that Northrop's contention that it was a less expensive weapon system wasn't clearcut like the F-20's supporters claimed.

There is plenty of information on the project on the web. None of it says the F-20 was a bad airplane, but the unbiased data seems to indicate that there was no compelling reason to purchase it over the F-16.
 
35 AoA said:
I have to admit that I was mildly disappointed during my RAG OCF flight in the mighty F/A-18B that I/we were completely unable to get the thing into a spin of any kind.....even with max AB on one motor, idle on the other, bullseye nose high, and full cross controls. Just swapped ends and after the nose hunted for a couple swings, it started flying away. Must have tried it 5-10 times to no avail. Kind of cool to fall backwards through a cloud of unburnt fuel, but I wouldn't say it was the best training if spin recovery was a training objective. Didn't both of the Tomcat RAG's have a dedicated T-2 OCF/departure training and/or currency syllabus? I thought I remembered seeing something like that. Sounds like it would have been a good thing.

I've also heard (or maybe read) the departure you mention was really insane and disorienting.....basically just tumbles end over end, right?
Click to expand...

IIRC, Nauga (literally) wrote the book about the left hand side of the F-18's envelope. He's one of those studly test pilot kinda guys.

Maybe he'll share something about it. (Or maybe I got the story wrong, or have embelleshed it over the years.)
 
35 AoA said:
I have to admit that I was mildly disappointed during my RAG OCF flight in the mighty F/A-18B that I/we were completely unable to get the thing into a spin of any kind...
Click to expand...
Was this pre-10.7? What you need to do is gouge one side of the radome boot a few times, *then* try it :wink2::eek: I never departed a Hornet but did a lot of work on the OOCF syllabus flight(s) and I can relate to your difficulties. I can't tell you how to reliably spin it but I can tell you how to get a wicked full outside snap during the low-AOA rudder departure. I can also tell you the -g overstress MMP code. :wink2:

Nauga,
looking for his spin notes
 
kyleb said:
He's one of those studly test pilot kinda guys.
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Oh nononono...Nauga was a studly flight test engineer, one of those dashing sandcrab types who would sell their souls for back seat time and polished their pocket protectors when they weren't folding stripcharts. As for the left side of the envelope, I lived there for a while (still do on other stuff) but stood on the shoulders of giants.

Nauga,
with no tones, no sideforce, and no problems.
 
nauga said:
Was this pre-10.7? What you need to do is gouge one side of the radome boot a few times, *then* try it :wink2::eek: I never departed a Hornet but did a lot of work on the OOCF syllabus flight(s) and I can relate to your difficulties. I can't tell you how to reliably spin it but I can tell you how to get a wicked full outside snap during the low-AOA rudder departure. I can also tell you the -g overstress MMP code. :wink2:

Nauga,
looking for his spin notes
Click to expand...

Please do tell more! It was post prom 10.7, which as I understand it, made a world of difference. I don't think anyone has seen a falling leaf in a while. As for a low AoA departure, that one has always struck me as insane.....as in you would have to be super ham fisted to get there. Am I wrong? I once heard a story about a guy who did a full rudder input supersonic without roll input, and basically bent the LAU enough to stab the tip through the wing

Don't worry, I am part of the 811 club too :)

The left side is a happy place, full of gear tones, AoA tones, and a jet that artificially makes you feel like a better stick and rudder man than you are. Then you get the bingo bug and realize it is time to go home, and NTU approach goons it all away and you land with emergency fuel........oh wait....

As for that specific jet, I don't know if it was bent, or if it was just because it was a family model (as you know, those things just don't hold AoA as well), but that piece now lives on a stick somewhere after they downed it for spar cracks during an inspection, and couldn't fly it 10 mins from Miramar to the Depot at North Island (and took the wings off and trucked it instead)
 
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35 AoA said:
Don't worry, I am part of the 811 club too :)
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Anybody can pull an 811. You gotta work harder for a 925 :wink2:

pm sent

Nauga,
who had some 'splainin' to do
 
tomdocherty72 said:
Can anyone point me in the right direction to make contact with pilots who flew the Northrop F-5 and the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk. A google search for relevant forums or groups drew a blank.

Thanks.
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Tom ... I flew the Scooter for one combat tour in 1966 ...am a member of the aforementioned Skyhawk.org group ...am in touch almost every day with former A4 drivers. What do you need??

http://a4skyhawk.org/?q=2d/tins/tins-glider_ron-marron.htm

Thats how you deadstick it!
 
I love that dead stick story Ron. 220 kts glide speed through IMC and trying to find a place to land. Amazing.
 
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