Explaining stalls & slow flight to student

Richard

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Ack...city life
The FAA uses the term "raises" when describing how loss of lift can occur when abruptly raising the flaps. With all this talk about being relatable to students and taking care to conjure the proper mental image, I think a better term would be "retracting" the flaps.

Is it just me being too perfectionist oriented? That is, does it really matter? If not, what about when engaging in deeper discussions? EX: downwash off the tail surfaces.

Right now I'm not directly concerned with the student, my concern is demonstrating an understanding which contains as little errors as possible. So far, I've gotten good evaluations of my presentations, but I know I can do better.
 
raises vs. lowers isnt so bad, up vs down is the real confusing one. I like retracted and extended, no doubt what you are talking about
 
Richard said:
The FAA uses the term "raises" when describing how loss of lift can occur when abruptly raising the flaps. With all this talk about being relatable to students and taking care to conjure the proper mental image, I think a better term would be "retracting" the flaps.

Is it just me being too perfectionist oriented? That is, does it really matter?
In this case, whichever terms have the effect of properly communcating the concept to the student are the right ones.
 
midlifeflyer said:
In this case, whichever terms have the effect of properly communcating the concept to the student are the right ones.

"...dump in all the flaps!..."
"...get rid of those flaps!..."
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
"...dump in all the flaps!..."
"...get rid of those flaps!..."

I hate to disagree but I do. Personally, I think clear and concise instructions are better than wordy instructions that might be misunderstood due to cockpit noise or distraction. For me, Extend Flaps - Retract Flaps, Lower Gear - Raise Gear would seam to be more easily understood.

IIRC there was an accident attributed to the flying pilot issuing the command "Takeoff power!". His intent was that the non flying pilot set maximum allowable thrust. The non flying pilot heard "take off power", thinking he heard the flying pilot request less thrust.

Communication is tricky. Well established phrases where everyone knows the percise meaning and what action to take are best.

WRT Retract Flaps or Raise Flaps - I could probably go either way but once a preference is established I'd stick with it.

Len
 
Len Lanetti said:
I hate to disagree but I do. Personally, I think clear and concise instructions are better than wordy instructions that might be misunderstood due to cockpit noise or distraction. For me, Extend Flaps - Retract Flaps, Lower Gear - Raise Gear would seam to be more easily understood.

IIRC there was an accident attributed to the flying pilot issuing the command "Takeoff power!". His intent was that the non flying pilot set maximum allowable thrust. The non flying pilot heard "take off power", thinking he heard the flying pilot request less thrust.

Communication is tricky. Well established phrases where everyone knows the percise meaning and what action to take are best.

WRT Retract Flaps or Raise Flaps - I could probably go either way but once a preference is established I'd stick with it.

Len

I was kinda joking, but not entirely.
Although those phases seem to be well established (of course technically, avslang) and have never been observed by me to cause problems in many thousands of TO/LDGs with multiple operators. I'm never surprised if a PIC uses them, they're that common and well understood.

The MTOP example you give smacks more of incomplete preflight cockpit briefing and PIC incompetency to me, as MTOP is a book term if I ever saw one. I definately see your point though and certainly it is very good to use standard, well defined terms to maximize CRM.
 
how about full power versus pull power. that was an early one I learned - my new CFI learned it too.
 
woodstock said:
how about full power versus pull power.

Personally, I don't like that one at all! My reason would be...say that, due to bad mic, intercom connection or other reason, the instruction is somewhat garbled..."full" and "pull" sound too similar and could be easily confused. If that particular confusion occurs at the wrong moment it could create an issue. Remember accidents are typically a chain of events.

To my way of thinking full and pull present the same problem as in the "takeoff power" versus "take off power" example in my previous post. The accident I remember reading about occured as the jet aircraft was approaching to land. The flying pilot wanted power to go around and the non flying pilot, reacting to the mis communicated instruction, reduced power to idle. Since the aircraft was a jet even immediate application of maximum thrust couldn't save the day as jet engines take time to "spool up" and generate thrust.

I'm sure you can imagine that a similar mis understanding could occur if the person reacting to the instruction thought they heard pull instead full. In the average piston engine single on the average flight there would probably be plenty of time for the pilot issuing the instruction to simply jam the throttle home but why tempt fate.

Len
 
Elizabeth,
Its my understanding and experience that many a confusion has been caused with the up vs. down statement. Some students wonder if you mean pull the handle up (flaps down) or put the flaps up (handle down). Obviously this issue is usually only found in pipers and other aircraft with a flap handle that you actually pull instead of the type found in the cessnas with electric flaps.
 
tonycondon said:
Obviously this issue is usually only found in pipers and other aircraft with a flap handle that you actually pull instead of the type found in the cessnas with electric flaps.
I guess I can see how up and down might be confusing in this situation. However, I can't even picture what the flap control looks like on a Piper. I know I have some time in them but CRS. I was mostly a high-winger. :)

PS: I'm not Elizabeth. But I'm flattered.
 
Everskyward said:
I However, I can't even picture what the flap control looks like on a Piper.

For PA28s, the Cherokee Six, Lance, Saratoga and Seneca it is a lever, often called a Johnson bar, about two feet long on the floor between the front seats...you pull the lever up to make the flaps go down...unless, of course, you are inverted...in which case you probably don't have to worry about the flaps too much.

Len
 
This is one of the funniest threads in a long time. You guys are cracking me up, I find it hard to believe any of you ever had students who, you know, actually finished the course...and in one piece.

Keep it going
 
Everskyward said:
PS: I'm not Elizabeth. But I'm flattered.

ug, sorry mari....

as tommy boy would say, "im retarded"
 
Re: Level Off

Mike Schneider said:
I know of a case where the instructor said: "level off". The student thought this meant: make the aircraft parallel with the runway (in pitch). What the instructor wanted was: make the aircraft fly parallel with the runway by pitching up (flare). The student did what he thought the instructor wanted and the aircraft dropped hard the rest of the way to the runway. This same instructor was a "dump the flaps" man. Does this mean: get rid of the flaps or put the flaps down?

It's "dump IN ALL the flaps". No wonder he had problems. Besides that, flight students can do anything at any time (no matter what the instructions were) -it sounds like the CFI was slow reacting.

The best overall of course are, simply:
Extend flaps
retract flaps
 
Hmmm-

I would have thought "dump the flaps" meant retract them. Good thing my instructors haven't used the term.

I guess I learned something today.
 
Min/Reduce/Add/Max -

Works for throttle and flaps.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I would have thought "dump the flaps" meant retract them. Good thing my instructors haven't used the term.
I don't think I'd recommend anyone using that term for just that reason -- too easy to misinterpret. I'm sure y'all know that story about the airline captain who, when they didn't break out at mins, said, "Takeoff power!" for the go-around. The co-pilot, thinking the captain was going to land, took off power.:eek:
 
Just a suggestion, as a perennial student -
When spoken calmly, as a reminder, these should be sufficient. It lets the student decide.
"Rudder"
"Flaps"
"Throttle"

When spoken urgently, how about:
"More power"
"Less flaps"
"More left rudder"
 
...SNIP....
"More power"
"Less flaps"
"More left rudder"
...SNIP...
Must of had my instructor. There was a time I thought those were the only words he knew. And do you ALWAYS have to yell?
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't think I'd recommend anyone using that term for just that reason -- too easy to misinterpret. I'm sure y'all know that story about the airline captain who, when they didn't break out at mins, said, "Takeoff power!" for the go-around. The co-pilot, thinking the captain was going to land, took off power.:eek:

Exactly why our standard call is "GO-AROUND, MAX POWER, FLAPS 9". Straight foward and reminds you what order to perform required actions. 1. Hit toga buttons. 2. Advance thrust levers to max power setting. 3. Retract flaps to 9. ... Of course, we have a few calls after establishing positive rate, but with the engines up to full power instead of idle positive rate is somewhat easier to attain.
 
Auburn_CFI said:
but with the engines up to full power instead of idle positive rate is somewhat easier to attain.

Don't you mean sustain?:D
 
Attain, sustain... subtle difference with so much hardware. LOL... just kidding.
 
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