Operating Under Class C airspace

RileyMitchum

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RileyMitchum
Where I fly around there is a class C with a few class D's that I take off from. My house lies beneath the class C (The outer shelf, not the inner area that extends to the ground) My question is would it be better for myself and the controllers for me to operate under the shelf and not talk to anyone, or to get flight following? If I get flight following can I drop down below the shelf to get a better view, without cancelling the flight following? If I want to maneuver while with flight following do I need to contact them to request a change in heading and/or altitude? I know this is a lot of questions but this is something I can never seem to get straight in my mind.
 
I believe it is safer when you are talking to them. They can keep you advised and also keep others advised on your intentions. There shouldn't be any issue with going in and out of Class C or below the shelf, while on flight following. You might drop below their radar, but they will let you know.
 
If I understand your questions correctly, you can literally just go fly circles all day long with flight following. Just tell them you'll be maneuvering In a certain area and they'll advise you of possible interfering traffic (workload permitting) and this is much safer because let's face it you're not always going to be 100% on the lookout while practicing, though we all try to be.
 
So is it just a courtesy to let them know you'll be maneuvering, or do you have to "request" each change in altitude/heading?
 
If I understand your questions correctly, you can literally just go fly circles all day long with flight following. Just tell them you'll be maneuvering In a certain area and they'll advise you of possible interfering traffic (workload permitting) and this is much safer because let's face it you're not always going to be 100% on the lookout while practicing, though we all try to be.

There is a gotcha here. If you are in two way communication with ATC you are cleared though class C and D, however it has to be with the ATC that controls the airspace. They -should- automatically hand you off, but...

Not a bad idea to announce your intentions when transitioning airspace, just to be on the safe side.
 
So is it just a courtesy to let them know you'll be maneuvering, or do you have to "request" each change in altitude/heading?

Nope! You don't have to let them know any of that you can go out there and practice whatever you want. Just call them up, tell them where you are and let them know you'll be maneuvering in the area. Don't overthink it. Are you confusing it with an ifr flight plan?
 
There is a gotcha here. If you are in two way communication with ATC you are cleared though class C and D, however it has to be with the ATC that controls the airspace. They -should- automatically hand you off, but...

Not a bad idea to announce your intentions when transitioning airspace, just to be on the safe side.

Oh yeah totally true and I agree :yesnod: but I was speaking to the maneuvering question he had. Sounded like he was overthinking it
 
Worst case scenario they might tell you to practice away from the Charlie.
 
This clears some stuff up, and yes, I do tend to over think things. I mainly wasn't sure about maneuvering without telling them. But it makes sense now.
 
So is it just a courtesy to let them know you'll be maneuvering, or do you have to "request" each change in altitude/heading?

No, you're free to fly where you want, when you want. You can give them a heads-up as to what your plans are, but you're not on ATC assigned routing. You're just flying around in their airspace.
 
Where I fly around there is a class C with a few class D's that I take off from. My house lies beneath the class C (The outer shelf, not the inner area that extends to the ground) My question is would it be better for myself and the controllers for me to operate under the shelf and not talk to anyone, or to get flight following? If I get flight following can I drop down below the shelf to get a better view, without cancelling the flight following? If I want to maneuver while with flight following do I need to contact them to request a change in heading and/or altitude? I know this is a lot of questions but this is something I can never seem to get straight in my mind.

Beneath the Class C outer ring you will be operating in the Outer Area. From the P/CG:


OUTER AREA (associated with Class C airspace)
− Nonregulatory airspace surrounding designated
Class C airspace airports wherein ATC provides radar
vectoring and sequencing on a full-time basis for all
IFR and participating VFR aircraft. The service
provided in the outer area is called Class C service
which includes: IFR/IFR−standard IFR separation;
IFR/VFR−traffic advisories and conflict resolution;
and VFR/VFR−traffic advisories and, as appropriate,
safety alerts. The normal radius will be 20 nautical
miles with some variations based on site-specific
requirements. The outer area extends outward from
the primary Class C airspace airport and extends from
the lower limits of radar/radio coverage up to the
ceiling of the approach control’s delegated airspace
excluding the Class C charted area and other airspace​
as appropriate.

See also AIM 3−2−4. Class C Airspace.

You can operate beneath the shelf without contacting ATC. If you don't contact them you must remain outside Class C airspace. If you do contact them you will receive Class C service even while beneath the shelf. You will only need to request a change in heading and/or altitude if they have previously been assigned.
 
So is it just a courtesy to let them know you'll be maneuvering, or do you have to "request" each change in altitude/heading?
I have gotten flight following while practicing maneuvers. They are glad to be a separate set of eyes as long as they are not real busy. But, if I drop down out of their radar coverage and back up into it again, they don't like that and I'm soon on my own. I generally cancel FF before doing that emergency descent or to a farmer's field or engine-out procedure or turns about a windmill.

I don't practice maneuvers in or under B,C,D airspace. Just doesn't seem safe.
 
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You mention your house being under the shelf. Is this because you're intending to circle your house? If so, I recommend caution.
 
You mention your house being under the shelf. Is this because you're intending to circle your house? If so, I recommend caution.

I would like to fly by my house, and maybe do a few circles. However it is right on the outside edge of the outside shelf. It is about as far away from the main airport as you can get without leaving the class C. In fact I believe it falls right on the line on the sectional. I was just wanting to know the most practical, and safe, way to fly over my house. Maybe do a few circles above it for some pictures (done by a passenger of course).
 
I would like to fly by my house, and maybe do a few circles. However it is right on the outside edge of the outside shelf. It is about as far away from the main airport as you can get without leaving the class C. In fact I believe it falls right on the line on the sectional. I was just wanting to know the most practical, and safe, way to fly over my house. Maybe do a few circles above it for some pictures (done by a passenger of course).

People have been known to lose focus, turn a little steep, stall the plane and fall out of the sky. Just do standard rate turns and keep your focus on flying the plane and you should be ok.
 
People have been known to lose focus, turn a little steep, stall the plane and fall out of the sky. Just do standard rate turns and keep your focus on flying the plane and you should be ok.

:eek: Didn't think about it that way. My main concern was traffic, however I'll be sure and watch the turns. Thanks!
 
Don't let Class C scare you! There is little more to it than Class D. Do your sightseeing IN Class C unless it's directly in line with the runway. It is not less safe. Even without the danger of inappropriate focus, it's much safer inside Class C, as you have an extra set of eyes watching you, that you are in contact with.

Even Class B isn't that big of a deal under many circumstances. Just be sure to get clearance first.
 
Don't let Class C scare you! There is little more to it than Class D.

I guess thats my main concern. Most of my training was outside the class C, unless we needed to go through it for a few minutes. So I have not spent a lot of time inside of it, and even less just maneuvering in it. If ever I went through it, it was to go straight from one airport to another. I just want to make sure I'm doing things right before I go do them.
 
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Flying over a target for photos is a tricky thing... Be very clear with yourself about it. You fly, the photographer takes pictures. If you need to set up another pass to get a better angle let the photographer tell you. Don't be looking out the right window and hauling around. You will set yourself up for a "moose stall"...
Tell the photographer that an oblique 45 looking backwards out the window at the target gets the best shot.
And remember the MSA for congested areas. Don't get lower than 1000 ft.
 
I guess thats my main concern. Most of my training was outside the class C, unless we needed to go through it for a few minutes. So I have not spent a lot of time inside of it, and even less just maneuvering in it. If ever I went through it, it was to go straight from one airport to another. I just want to make sure I'm doing things right before I go do them.

Give it a try -- you'll be surprised just how little there is to it. Get flight following and you're good. As a courtesy, inform Approach of your intentions (they'll ask otherwise, if it's a concern), and go to town.

I don't think instructors do students a service by making airspace out to be some sort of monster. Though most of the stuff I've seen is related to Class B. Class B in particular is MUCH easier to transition than it is to avoid.

As a private pilot, if you haven't already done so, do some landings at Class C. Many of them aren't very busy. I've done landings at all the local Class C's, and only KSJC has ever given me any trouble, and that's only becase the GA runway has been closed for years, and you have to share runway space with purple 737s. Even that has been only in the form of longer-than-I'd-like waits for takeoff (Part 121 traffic gets priority). KOAK is easy except for the extra tower handoff (it has two). KMRY is beyond easy.
 
Give it a try -- you'll be surprised just how little there is to it. Get flight following and you're good. As a courtesy, inform Approach of your intentions (they'll ask otherwise, if it's a concern), and go to town.

I don't think instructors do students a service by making airspace out to be some sort of monster. Though most of the stuff I've seen is related to Class B. Class B in particular is MUCH easier to transition than it is to avoid.

As a private pilot, if you haven't already done so, do some landings at Class C. Many of them aren't very busy. I've done landings at all the local Class C's, and only KSJC has ever given me any trouble, and that's only becase the GA runway has been closed for years, and you have to share runway space with purple 737s. Even that has been only in the form of longer-than-I'd-like waits for takeoff (Part 121 traffic gets priority). KOAK is easy except for the extra tower handoff (it has two). KMRY is beyond easy.

I did one landing at the class C (KOKC) with my instructor. It was towards the beginning of my training though, so I don't really remember a whole lot of it. I'll have to pick a time when their not busy and head over. Thanks for the tip :D
 
I would like to fly by my house, and maybe do a few circles. However it is right on the outside edge of the outside shelf. It is about as far away from the main airport as you can get without leaving the class C. In fact I believe it falls right on the line on the sectional. I was just wanting to know the most practical, and safe, way to fly over my house. Maybe do a few circles above it for some pictures (done by a passenger of course).

My airport is also under the shelf and I'm always on flight following, a simple "Buffalo approach, Cessna 79H will be dropping to one thousand seven hundred for some photo work" is what I give them.
 
Ok, first things first 91.121 (a) (b). If you have class C I think it's safe to assume you live in a congested area. The floor of my local C airspace is 2000. Elevation in the area will be 8-900 feet. This gives you 1100-1200 agl to the floor of the airspace, giving you 100-200 feet to legally fly in. So technically your covered for (b).
However, if you lose an engine most likely (a) is going to bite you.

I've never been in a c airspace that wasn't easy to deal with. I've even had to fly photo missions within the surface boundary with no issues.
Be on the safe side, call'em up, and just tell them what you want and they will most likely let you do just that.
Class c is no big deal. Just like any other communication, keep it short, stick to the details.
If it would make you feel better go spend an hour with an instructor flying around and in the C airspace.
 
I would like to fly by my house, and maybe do a few circles. However it is right on the outside edge of the outside shelf. It is about as far away from the main airport as you can get without leaving the class C. In fact I believe it falls right on the line on the sectional. I was just wanting to know the most practical, and safe, way to fly over my house. Maybe do a few circles above it for some pictures (done by a passenger of course).

Simple enough:

Approach, Bugmasher 12345 10 east 2500, will be in your area for photos and transition.

The usual "be careful" stuff here concerning turns/maneuvering.
 
I'm also located just outside of a Class C. I usually don't talk to the local approach controllers if I'm transiting under the shelf and avoid the controlled airspace like the plague, I get vectored all over the place. The biggest proviso that comes to mind for me is I'm maneuvering in a tight space along with all the other guys who don't feel like dealing with the local Charlie, so I always exercise extra diligence. I'm not required to talk to anyone, so I don't. Did the same thing at a destination last weekend, went under the shelf. That's what it's there for.
 
I'm also located just outside of a Class C. I usually don't talk to the local approach controllers if I'm transiting under the shelf and avoid the controlled airspace like the plague, I get vectored all over the place. The biggest proviso that comes to mind for me is I'm maneuvering in a tight space along with all the other guys who don't feel like dealing with the local Charlie, so I always exercise extra diligence. I'm not required to talk to anyone, so I don't. Did the same thing at a destination last weekend, went under the shelf. That's what it's there for.

Sounds like how I treat CVG bravo
 
I operate between two Class C's and a Class B. While it's possible to dodge them all, it's silly and error prone. I'll transition one or the other for any flight north or south, and use the flyway for east (that's inside Class D).

There's not much to this. Avoiding the airspace just makes the PIC's job more difficult, especially if it's concentrating VFR traffic.
 
Ok, first things first 91.121 (a) (b). If you have class C I think it's safe to assume you live in a congested area. The floor of my local C airspace is 2000. Elevation in the area will be 8-900 feet. This gives you 1100-1200 agl to the floor of the airspace, giving you 100-200 feet to legally fly in. So technically your covered for (b).
However, if you lose an engine most likely (a) is going to bite you.

Mine is 2200, field elevation is 727, area I usually take photos in is between 571 and 600. Plenty of space to work with.
 
There's not much to this. Avoiding the airspace just makes the PIC's job more difficult, especially if it's concentrating VFR traffic.

Doesn't make my job any harder, especially since avoiding traffic is what I'm supposed to be doing anyway.
 
Doesn't make my job any harder, especially since avoiding traffic is what I'm supposed to be doing anyway.

You don't find it any harder to avoid 20 aircraft than 2 or 3?

Sorry, I'm having a really hard time believing that, especially if it's a bit hazy out.

Inside Class B, I've seen exactly one other light aircraft within a mile, ever. Almost always, I have half the airspace to myself. Jet traffic warnings come, but every last one of them has been miles away and thousands of feet above. Inside Class C, it's a few more, but it's remarkably empty compared to the surrounding Class E airspace. Excepting DPs and IAPs to the main airport, of course.
 
You don't find it any harder to avoid 20 aircraft than 2 or 3?

Sorry, I'm having a really hard time believing that, especially if it's a bit hazy out.

Inside Class B, I've seen exactly one other light aircraft within a mile, ever. Almost always, I have half the airspace to myself. Jet traffic warnings come, but every last one of them has been miles away and thousands of feet above. Inside Class C, it's a few more, but it's remarkably empty compared to the surrounding Class E airspace. Excepting DPs and IAPs to the main airport, of course.

We're in dramatically different parts of the country. The only place I've ever had 20 airplanes in the sky with me was Oshkosh. If there were so many airplanes operating where I live I might look at it differently.
 
People have been known to lose focus, turn a little steep, stall the plane and fall out of the sky. Just do standard rate turns and keep your focus on flying the plane and you should be ok.
I would rather suggest a racetrack pattern. Even experienced pilots were known to succumb to the "moose stall". In a racetrack you look out while flying straight, refocus on the turn, then repeat, which is much safer. I suppose it's easier when your passenger does the looking and photography, freeing you for piloting.
 
Also! About the Riley's intention to get under the shelf and MAKG saying how boundaries concentrate VFR traffic. I heard supposedly from Bay Area controllers (not sure what facility) that it's very common there to see airplanes circling airspace boundaries in opposing directions squaking 1200, followed by erratic maneuvering when they meet. In LA they have special corridors that try at least separate traffic by altitude. Even Denver has a kind of a corridor going north-south west of town, documented at VFR chart. Without those people tend to circle in the manner described.
 
We're in dramatically different parts of the country. The only place I've ever had 20 airplanes in the sky with me was Oshkosh. If there were so many airplanes operating where I live I might look at it differently.

20 flying around is more than I see here, but it's not unusual to see several going through an uncontrolled pass on a really nice weekend day.

Workload is directly proportional to the number of aircraft, and even with advisories, it can be difficult under some circumstances to spot even one. On the last X-C, passing through Sunol Pass, I got an advisory from NorCal to do a right 180 for an aircraft I never saw. With a bit of haze and a slightly lower altitude against city background, an aircraft coming steadily right at you in broad daylight is remarkably hard to spot.
 
20 flying around is more than I see here, but it's not unusual to see several going through an uncontrolled pass on a really nice weekend day.

Workload is directly proportional to the number of aircraft, and even with advisories, it can be difficult under some circumstances to spot even one. On the last X-C, passing through Sunol Pass, I got an advisory from NorCal to do a right 180 for an aircraft I never saw. With a bit of haze and a slightly lower altitude against city background, an aircraft coming steadily right at you in broad daylight is remarkably hard to spot.

I fly into KRHV all the time and there is always a lot of traffic, as I cross the ridge into Silicon Valley. I have seen 7 or 8 planes in the pattern (two parallel runways) at RHV at one time (class D). It is in a notch carved out of SJC class C and you have to turn on departure to avoid SFO class B. There are definitely times when there are in the neighborhood of 20 planes in the general vicinity. I wouldn't attempt it without flight following.
 
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