Box canyon turn?

[alfadog]

Would some of y'all with mountain flying experience please clue me in on the box canyon turn?

Let us say you are in level cruise at a speed faster than Vfe. To make a box canyon turn, do you?

1. Raise nose and simultaneously add full power.
2. Drop flaps when speed drops to Vfe.
3. Continue raising nose as needed until about 1.5 Vso.
4. Bank 45 degrees to a 180 or as needed, lowering nose as needed to maintain 1.5 Vso.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

It is called a Chandelle.

 

[alfadog]

It is called a Chandelle.

More aggressive bank than a chandelle, I would think. And a quicker entry into the turn and the slow. Not the same maneuver, IMO. Different objective. The chandelle is maximum altitude gain while the box canyon turn is minimum radius. Also you do not add full flaps in a chandelle.

 

[skidoo]

More aggressive bank than a chandelle, I would think. And a quicker entry into the turn and the slow. Not the same maneuver, IMO. Different objective. The chandelle is maximum altitude gain while the box canyon turn is minimum radius. Also you do not add full flaps in a chandelle.

Maybe something between a Chandelle and a hammerhead?

 

[alfadog]

Maybe something between a Chandelle and a hammerhead?

The box canyon turn is its own thing. I have read some on it and am curious if I have the right idea of how to do one. The idea being to make a minimum radius turn without getting into aerobatics.

 

[alfadog]

Maybe something between a Chandelle and a hammerhead?

One site described it as "combination of the steep turn and wing over".

Here is Sparky Imeson's page on it:

http://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/mountain-flying/box_canyon_turn.html

"The necessity of a box canyon turn is an admission that you have violated the basic premises of mountain flight." - Sparky

 

[Tom-D]

Box canyon turn, is caused by poor flight planing.

 

[alfadog]

Box canyon turn, is caused by poor flight planing.

Absolutely. So how do you do one?

 

[EdFred]

Box canyon turn, is caused by poor flight planing.

So is a slip without a crosswind or obstacles in the approach path, but we still teach people how to do them.

 

[alfadog]

So is a slip without a crosswind or obstacles in the approach path, but we still teach people how to do them.

I was thinking about stalls myself. An unintended stall is the result of bad piloting so...?

And thinking about Cory Lidle and his CFI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_New_York_City_plane_crash

A 45d bank with full flaps at 1.5 Vso would have likely gotten them out of there.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html

 

[EdFred]

I was thinking about stalls myself. An unintended stall is the result of bad piloting so...?

And thinking about Cory Lidle and his CFI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_New_York_City_plane_crash

A 45d bank with full flaps at 1.5 Vso would have likely gotten them out of there.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html

Simply flying through the imaginary wall or floor of the Class B would have been a better solution. There was no canyon, other than the imaginary one.

 

[comanchepilot]

It is called a Chandelle.

exactly. and that depends on reserve power and reserve airspeed . . .

the problem is that no one ever thinks vertically in an emergency - the human brain in hard wired in 2 dimensions and it takes lots of training or the unusual person to think vertically . . .

the average 165-180hp GA airplane can easily zoom climb 500' with a chandelle - when you turn first you still lose airspeed with no corresponding gain in altitude -

I can usually- from 140knots IAS get a 1000' out of my Comanche and still be over 100mph ias when I crank it over with flaps out and rudder to turn - then I have altitude to convert back into airspeed as I make the turn -

 

[alfadog]

Simply flying through the imaginary wall or floor of the Class B would have been a better solution. There was no canyon, other than the imaginary one.

Absolutely. The CFI should have known better.

 

[comanchepilot]

Simply flying through the imaginary wall or floor of the Class B would have been a better solution. There was no canyon, other than the imaginary one.

A phone number to call is better than a meat wagon . . . and at that altitude there was all kinds of available power.

 

[alfadog]

exactly. and that depends on reserve power and reserve airspeed . . .

the problem is that no one ever thinks vertically in an emergency - the human brain in hard wired in 2 dimensions and it takes lots of training or the unusual person to think vertically . . .

the average 165-180hp GA airplane can easily zoom climb 500' with a chandelle - when you turn first you still lose airspeed with no corresponding gain in altitude -

I can usually- from 140knots IAS get a 1000' out of my Comanche and still be over 100mph ias when I crank it over with flaps out and rudder to turn - then I have altitude to convert back into airspeed as I make the turn -

Another reason a box canyon turn is not a chandelle.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Simply flying through the imaginary wall or floor of the Class B would have been a better solution. There was no canyon, other than the imaginary one.

There was a canyon -- the buildings on either side of the street he could have flown along provided the canyon walls. Instead, he flew right into one.

 

[comanchepilot]

Another reason a box canyon turn is not a chandelle.

and what is the best turning speed for your airplane? Its not 110kias for a Skyhawk . ..

Whats the best way to slow down in a Skyhawk? Ok - thats a bad example.
But seriously- try a turn at cruise and then slow down to Vx and try a turn - using rudder only.

There should be no box canyon accidents - its about airmanship. You can turn a GA airplane 180 degree I dare say in less than 1/2 mile. Way less.

 

[alfadog]

There was a canyon -- the buildings on either side of the street he could have flown along provided the canyon walls. Instead, he flew right into one.

Not really, They could have continued straight ahead and busted airspace. There was no "rocky" need to turn. Not only that but the building they hit was less than 600 feet tall and the airspace is 1100 feet. My guess is they stalled the airplane trying to tighten up the turn to stay over the water. They could have just overflown the building and had such a minor airspace infraction, I doubt it would have been more than an ASRS report issue. But that is all Monday morning quarterbacking on my part.

 

[EdFred]

There was a canyon -- the buildings on either side of the street he could have flown along provided the canyon walls. Instead, he flew right into one.

No. There wasn't. Plenty of open area to the east. Nothing even remotely resembling a canyon except for lines drawn on a chart.

 

[murphey]

Would some of y'all with mountain flying experience please clue me in on the box canyon turn?

Let us say you are in level cruise at a speed faster than Vfe. To make a box canyon turn, do you?

1. Raise nose and simultaneously add full power.
2. Drop flaps when speed drops to Vfe.
3. Continue raising nose as needed until about 1.5 Vso.
4. Bank 45 degrees to a 180 or as needed, lowering nose as needed to maintain 1.5 Vso.

Find a CFI who knows what they are doing, and practice at 2000 AGL at a minimum. It's much easier to see what to do than try to explain it.

 

[Tom-D]

Absolutely. So how do you do one?

I don't, I avoid going down into tight little canyons.

 

[alfadog]

Find a CFI who knows what they are doing, and practice at 2000 AGL at a minimum. It's much easier to see what to do than try to explain it.

Not many mountain flying courses offered in South Florida.

No big deal, I am just going to try it on my own tomorrow

 

[Tom-D]

http://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/mountain-flying/box_canyon_turn.html

 

[bnt83]

Hit the button on the ELT control panel and close your eyes.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

So is a slip without a crosswind or obstacles in the approach path, but we still teach people how to do them.

Ever flown a plane without flaps? A slip is a normal maneuver to steepen an approach, obstacles or no obstacles.

 

[murphey]

http://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/mountain-flying/box_canyon_turn.html

From this article

"This teaches us the radius of turn can be shortened by either reducing the true airspeed, or by increasing the angle of bank. The greatest benefit is from a combination of both slowing and banking."

and further down,

"The necessity of a box canyon turn is an admission that you have violated the basic premises of mountain flight."

 

[EdFred]

Ever flown a plane without flaps? A slip is a normal maneuver to steepen an approach, obstacles or no obstacles.

You could always descend sooner. Comes down to flight planning.

 

[alfadog]

From this article

"This teaches us the radius of turn can be shortened by either reducing the true airspeed, or by increasing the angle of bank. The greatest benefit is from a combination of both slowing and banking."

and further down,

"The necessity of a box canyon turn is an admission that you have violated the basic premises of mountain flight."

Now where have I heard that before?

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1117921&postcount=6

 

[RoscoeT]

So is a slip without a crosswind or obstacles in the approach path, but we still teach people how to do them.

That is sad, sorry logic IMO. A whole lot more people should develop their slipping skills by doing it regularly...and not just when there's x-wind or obstacle issues. Slipping lets you consistently put the airplane down exactly where you want without relying on power. A minority of modern pilots can consistently do this. Good luck to these pilots in an emergency. This nonsense about slips being "poor flight planning" doesn't help. How is it poor flight planning to apply precision glide slope control by whatever means necessary? You call it poor flight planning, I call it good piloting skill. The 3-degree VASI hero who never practices this will be SOL in a real power off situation.

 

[bbchien]

DON'T STALL OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE.

(1) Add power first if you are not alredy generating full power.
(2) Convert kinetic energy (Airspeed) into climbing turn to reduce airspeed to Vy+5 (This shortens the turn radius and converts energy + newly produced energy into climb)
(3) Deploy shortfield departure procedure flaps (if in a Twinstar, that means NO flaps).
(4) Convert remaining excess airspeed energy (if you are that good) into bank or climb as appropriate.

DON'T STALL OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE.
DON'T STALL OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE.
Ask, WTF are you needing the box canyon turn for, in the first place?

 

[flyingron]

I was thinking about stalls myself. An unintended stall is the result of bad piloting so...?

And thinking about Cory Lidle and his CFI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_New_York_City_plane_crash

A 45d bank with full flaps at 1.5 Vso would have likely gotten them out of there.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html

And starting the turn from the opposite wall of the "canyon" would have helped to. Most people don't tend to make sharp turns from the middle of the road.

In fact this wasn't even an box canyon turn, they could have made a SHALLOWER turn and avoided the crash as well. He could have gone around the land side of that building as well.

 

[comanchepilot]

Ever flown a plane without flaps? A slip is a normal maneuver to steepen an approach, obstacles or no obstacles.

and there will be times that even if you have flaps and retractable landing gear and even speed brakes - you will be 3 miles from the airport at 3000AGL because ATC needs you there to prevent you from hitting someone else. . . . and at that point your choices are a) a looong final and a 360 or two, or b) a slip. It's always fun to fly sideways, isn't it?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

When I first flew and saw demos of good ones by a CFI in a SkyHawk, it was approaching stall speed power on/off as desired, by aggressively increasing pitch but still plenty of lift and then using enough (usually full) rudder to reverse course in only a few wingspans space while simultaneously pushing the nose down and then pulling out of the ensuing dive, then retracting any flaps that may have been elected to use.

In actual mountainflying it is much more prudent to initiate a course reversal much earlier in the "box canyon" than at such time as this maneuver would be "required". Preferably, do canyon course reversals early enough that moderately steep turns or even Chandelles will suffice.

 

[21541803]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81XqGyZVRjw

Some where in this sequence I bet you can pick a box canyon turn.

 

[EdFred]

We need a tongue in cheek font.

 

[Inverted]

You could always descend sooner. Comes down to flight planning.

Until you are descending into an area where descending sooner will kill you. That is a very 1 dimensional way of looking at things.

 

[alfadog]

We need a tongue in cheek font.

Seriously.

 

[N801BH]

DON'T STALL OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE.

(1) Add power first if you are not alredy generating full power.
(2) Convert kinetic energy (Airspeed) into climbing turn to reduce airspeed to Vy+5 (This shortens the turn radius and converts energy + newly produced energy into climb)
(3) Deploy shortfield departure procedure flaps (if in a Twinstar, that means NO flaps).
(4) Convert remaining excess airspeed energy (if you are that good) into bank or climb as appropriate.

DON'T STALL OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE.
DON'T STALL OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE.
Ask, WTF are you needing the box canyon turn for, in the first place?

Best answer yet....

I practice and actually do box canyon turns alot... Of course, living in the mountains surely helps.. My situation and the plane I fly is quite different from most others... but.. I can do a 180, SAFELY... in about 300-350 feet in width.. Convert speed to altitude... bleed off till you get to VA and crank into a knife edge and use the altitude you bought about 3 seconds earlier into airspeed on the downrun.. Like the good DR said.... DON"T STALL..

Ps... Both well known mountain flying pilots/authors.. Sparky and Fletcher Anderson were both based out of Jackson Hole... Both were a bit cocky and arrogent... Both wrote books on what NOT to do..... Both died during EXACTLY what they wrote NOT to do.......

 

[alfadog]

When I first flew and saw demos of good ones by a CFI in a SkyHawk, it was approaching stall speed power on/off as desired, by aggressively increasing pitch but still plenty of lift and then using enough (usually full) rudder to reverse course in only a few wingspans space while simultaneously pushing the nose down and then pulling out of the ensuing dive, then retracting any flaps that may have been elected to use.

In actual mountainflying it is much more prudent to initiate a course reversal much earlier in the "box canyon" than at such time as this maneuver would be "required". Preferably, do canyon course reversals early enough that moderately steep turns or even Chandelles will suffice.

I think those are closer to hammerhead turns, no?

 

[alfadog]

DON'T STALL OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE.

(1) Add power first if you are not alredy generating full power.
(2) Convert kinetic energy (Airspeed) into climbing turn to reduce airspeed to Vy+5 (This shortens the turn radius and converts energy + newly produced energy into climb)
(3) Deploy shortfield departure procedure flaps (if in a Twinstar, that means NO flaps).
(4) Convert remaining excess airspeed energy (if you are that good) into bank or climb as appropriate.

DON'T STALL OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE.
DON'T STALL OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE.
Ask, WTF are you needing the box canyon turn for, in the first place?

Thanks.

I hate it when I stall and die! I mean STALL AND DIE!

Just for fun and are they not taught in a good mountain flying course? How much of a headstart do you think I can get on a mountain flying course here in South Florida?