Cannot Control The Airplane!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IrclNLxKt8&list=UUfQsz6w4G8DiLFI0Vg0HkmQ&index=18

I think the controller knew more about IFR flying + ice than this caravan pilot. Gets into what might be SLD at 10,000 feet when the video starts.
Yea this one has been around for a while. Sounds like once she actually turned on the deice equipment the airplane did what it was supposed to do. She got a hard lesson about paying attention to the surrounding. Maybe look out the window at your wings once in a while. Got lucky on that one.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IrclNLxKt8&list=UUfQsz6w4G8DiLFI0Vg0HkmQ&index=18

I think the controller knew more about IFR flying + ice than this caravan pilot.
Gets into what might be SLD at 10,000 feet when the video starts.

http://youtu.be/b8JwYmCMv58

Here's another one where the controller apparently knows more about flying than the guy actually flying the airplane.
What's extremely amazing to me is how this guy could possibly be a licensed pilot and yet he doesn't understand the
instructions given to him at 02:20 nor does he have any idea on how to apply the instructions given to him.
 
"For PDT 4622, is that a female flying that aircraft?"
:rofl:
Seriously, though--how is this at all an appropriate thing to say while someone is in a potentially life-threatening situation that demands radio silence? Not like it was going to help out the situation.
 
Controller did a good job :thumbsup:
 
http://youtu.be/b8JwYmCMv58

Here's another one where the controller apparently knows more about flying than the guy actually flying the airplane.
What's extremely amazing to me is how this guy could possibly be a licensed pilot and yet he doesn't understand the
instructions given to him at 02:20 nor does he have any idea on how to apply the instructions given to him.


wow, that one is just really bad. how can you not know how to operate a transponder?
 
He may not have had one--not required in Class D.
 
"For PDT 4622, is that a female flying that aircraft?"
:rofl:
Seriously, though--how is this at all an appropriate thing to say while someone is in a potentially life-threatening situation that demands radio silence? Not like it was going to help out the situation.
I believe he is trying to help the controller understand what she said and wanted to make sure he was talking about the same person. They do monitor different frequencies.
 
OK that makes more sense.
 
http://youtu.be/b8JwYmCMv58

Here's another one where the controller apparently knows more about flying than the guy actually flying the airplane.
What's extremely amazing to me is how this guy could possibly be a licensed pilot and yet he doesn't understand the
instructions given to him at 02:20 nor does he have any idea on how to apply the instructions given to him.

student pilot?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IrclNLxKt8&list=UUfQsz6w4G8DiLFI0Vg0HkmQ&index=18

I think the controller knew more about IFR flying + ice than this caravan pilot. Gets into what might be SLD at 10,000 feet when the video starts.
And apparently pulls the boots right away, and STILL loses control of the plane for a few minutes. I'm not sure I'd sound much more "in control" in that situation.

That's one of the scariest recordings I've listened to in a long while. I can't fault either side of the exchange. All I can say is, learning from others' lessons is a lot safer than having to learn them on your own. I'm becoming a bigger and bigger "ice chicken" every day. :yes:
 
After that experience I am not sure I would have had it in me to fly to Bangor. I think I would have landed, and hired a driver to drive me to Bangor. Just saying.
 
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After that experience I am not sure I would have had it in me to fly to Bangor. I think I would have landed, and hired a dricer to drive me to Bangor. Just saying.

I was thinking the same thing. After something that stressful, I'd be in no condition to keep flying. I'd ask ATC to find me an airport and give me vectors.

A little strange to me too that she didn't seem worried when the OAT was at zero and she was presumably still in wet air. Makes me think she didn't really understand what got her in trouble in the first place.
 
And apparently pulls the boots right away, and STILL loses control of the plane for a few minutes. I'm not sure I'd sound much more "in control" in that situation.

That's one of the scariest recordings I've listened to in a long while. I can't fault either side of the exchange. All I can say is, learning from others' lessons is a lot safer than having to learn them on your own. I'm becoming a bigger and bigger "ice chicken" every day. :yes:
Agreed. I'm surprised she didn't want to land somewhere, catch her breath, and check out the icing situation enroute.
 
Agreed. I'm surprised she didn't want to land somewhere, catch her breath, and check out the icing situation enroute.
Me too -- I think she might have been in a bit of denial, or else under pressure from upstairs to get whatever she was carrying to Bangor (I'm assuming this was a freight run, but could be wrong about that).
 
I'm surprised she didn't want to land somewhere, catch her breath, and check out the icing situation enroute.

Agreed

If I'd loose complete control of the aircraft I'd want to know why it happened before continuing. It sounded like she was a bit lost (I don't mean geographically).
 
A little strange to me too that she didn't seem worried when the OAT was at zero and she was presumably still in wet air. Makes me think she didn't really understand what got her in trouble in the first place.[/QUOTE]


Denial...Or stupidity about Icing, but if thats the case that is a TRAINING issue. It sounded to me as she was flying IFR. I do not fly IFR but I still have learned about icing, or how to avoid it.

I listened to one of these where two pilots flying a Heavey or jumbo style jet crashed that jet and killed everyone aboard becuase of Denial.

The instruments where telling them one thing and they just denied it was happening.

Denial..If you look it up in the dictionary it should read.....Will kill pilots..
 
This was one of the most frightening things I have listened to in a while.
 
At the end of the recording it was obvious that the controller was concerned that she was headed right back into more freezing rain with his offer that the freezing level was at 4000 and offering her 3000 as a safer altitude.

I agree that I would be landing to evaluate my continue flight into known icing, because even if the aircraft was certified for known ice I don't think she was, and recovering from loss of control at 3000 is a lot tougher than from 10000.

Lastly she had no idea whether or not the aircraft had been damaged in her free-fall.

With the tape of the guy that didn't know what it meant to ident or squawk, I have heard this level of LOST before with students. Controller kept telling the guy to ident and he had no idea what she was asking. I anonymously offered to him to push the little button on his transponder. I think if someone had said set your transponder to 5555 or what ever it was he would have done so. While I realize this is not the controllers responsibility I find that if someone cant figure out what you want rephrase it to them. Helps immensely. I was really surprised we didn't hear "please call the tower upon shutdown, we would like to talk to you"
 
If I remember this one correctly, this was a ferry flight, hence the stop in Bangor.

The caravan empty is a monster. Very confidence inspiring aircraft to fly IMO.

Caravan's fly in ice everyday of the year with an excellent safety record.

It's not the airplane, I suspect she was just very inexperienced in this bird and icing and let it get out of hand.
 
That's one of the scariest recordings I've listened to in a long while. I can't fault either side of the exchange.

I can point out a couple big problems with this.

1) Airplanes don't just go from normal to spiraling out of control in a few seconds from ice. Especially not a caravan with boots + hot prop. She either had the autopilot on and did not notice she was picking up ice, or hit some SLD, windscreen froze over and just began to panic.

2) Panic. I can't say anyone with major ice problems is expected to be calm and collected, but from the radio transmissions I don't think this pilot had her head in the game at all.

3) Lots of time was spent on the radio with the controller but none of it was productive. She does not even tell the controller that she was having an icing emergency. He had to figure it out on his own, and then urge her to get down below the freezing level.


This has been posted before, but the MU-2 icing incident is a pretty classic example of how to handle an emergency. These guys iced up so bad at one point both engines were out, they were below MEA in the mountains and should have been goners. But they flew the plane, communicated effectively with the controller and ran their checklists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbm8xzLVgQ4&playnext=1&list=PLE9891183A11A9647&feature=results_main
 
1) Airplanes don't just go from normal to spiraling out of control in a few seconds from ice. Especially not a caravan with boots + hot prop. She either had the autopilot on and did not notice she was picking up ice, or hit some SLD, windscreen froze over and just began to panic.
It sounded like she was in freezing rain... the worst kind of SLD. :(

2) Panic. I can't say anyone with major ice problems is expected to be calm and collected, but from the radio transmissions I don't think this pilot had her head in the game at all.
You're flying along, SPIFR, and suddenly you lose control of the airplane due to severe icing. When you try to regain control, you start making uncommanded 90 degree banks. You're 100% certain you wouldn't have had a few moments of panic?

3) Lots of time was spent on the radio with the controller but none of it was productive. She does not even tell the controller that she was having an icing emergency. He had to figure it out on his own, and then urge her to get down below the freezing level.
It's very easy to find fault from the armchair. She was aviating first, and trying to communicate but clearly couldn't do it very well due to being completely overwhelmed. Obviously she hadn't been trained very well on how to deal with being a test pilot flying a popsicle. Have you? :rolleyes:


This has been posted before, but the MU-2 icing incident is a pretty classic example of how to handle an emergency. These guys iced up so bad at one point both engines were out, they were below MEA in the mountains and should have been goners. But they flew the plane, communicated effectively with the controller and ran their checklists.
It's not loading for me right now, I'll try later. But you say "they" -- again, this was a single pilot situation. We give major props to pilots who do an exemplary job in critical situations, like the Cherokee pilot who put down in the Hudson recently. You never know how you'll react until it's your turn, as Henning says some people rise to the occasion and others freeze up. Most of us probably fall probably somewhere in between. The Caravan pilot didn't do the greatest job, no, and really should have landed after regaining control, as someone else said if for no other reason than to make sure the airplane was still airworthy after possibly exceeding design limitations in flight. But saying she wasn't "ice-qualified", whatever that means, or didn't have her head in the game, just isn't justified as far as I'm concerned.

Then again, Monday morning quarterbacking seems to be what we do best here, so carry on...
 
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Wow that was scary listening to her voice I wonder if she had passengers?

I'm pretty sure I heard screaming passengers in the background. That lady does NOT handle stress well.
 
Obviously she hadn't been trained very well on how to deal with being a test pilot flying a popsicle. Have you? :rolleyes:



Then again, Monday morning quarterbacking seems to be what we do best here, so carry on...

I'm not making any claims about my ability to handle becoming a Popsicle. Unlike the pilot in the video, I don't fly a FIKI turbine and have fortunately never iced up an airplane.
 
What we do know from the transcript:

She was flying at 10,000 feet in IMC and below freezing.

Autopilot on, boots off, pitot heat off.

She loses control.

After the descent to 6,500 she says that she turned them on, logically to do that they must have been off prior to losing control as mentioned above.

No guess work required about the circumstances.

She handled it a lot better than AF 447.
 
At the end of the recording it was obvious that the controller was concerned that she was headed right back into more freezing rain with his offer that the freezing level was at 4000 and offering her 3000 as a safer altitude.

I agree that I would be landing to evaluate my continue flight into known icing, because even if the aircraft was certified for known ice I don't think she was, and recovering from loss of control at 3000 is a lot tougher than from 10000.

Lastly she had no idea whether or not the aircraft had been damaged in her free-fall.
[...]
Caravans are certified for flight into known icing. No airplane is certified for flight into severe icing, e.g. Supercooled Large Drops (SLD), OTOH.

Unless she was pulling significant G's or had gone red-line on the airspeed (I would think both would be unlikely), I wouldn't be too concerned about airframe damage. Maybe broken antenna(s) or static wick(s).

But yeah, after that level of anxiety, I think it would have been a good idea to get on the ground and regroup. Maybe fly 10 - 20 minutes to calm down and feel in control again, though.

What we do know from the transcript:

She was flying at 10,000 feet in IMC and below freezing.

Autopilot on, boots off, pitot heat off.

She loses control.

After the descent to 6,500 she says that she turned them on, logically to do that they must have been off prior to losing control as mentioned above.

No guess work required about the circumstances.

She handled it a lot better than AF 447.

A number of years ago (I don't know if it was before or after this recording), the recommendation came out from the FAA, NTSB, or NASA (I don't remember who) to turn off the autopilot in icing conditions so you could better sense the condition of the aircraft. Additionally, the pitot heat should have been on if in IMC anywhere near the freezing level.

Just some hypothesis here, but if the autopilot suddenly shut itself off in SLD after having run the trim all the way nose up and the pitot tube was frozen over and she hadn't popped the boots, I could see a pretty sudden loss of control. Unfortunately, add panic to the situation, and it's a doozy to handle (and no one listening to that audio will honestly say there was no panic!)

If this was a ferry flight via Bangor, what was the destination? Based on what I heard, this pilot didn't seems capable of doing a trans-Atlantic flight, so I hope it wasn't across the pond. That would also seem to be inconsistent with SAC Arrow's claim of hearing "screaming passengers in the background" (though I didn't hear that, myself).

In any event, I hope the controller got an Archie for his handling of the situation! I'd lay odds on his being a pilot himself.

As to the airliner asking if it was a woman in the Caravan, I'm pretty sure that the question was intended to positively identify the aircraft, not any sort of a sexist remark. At least I certainly hope so!

Those pilots in the MU-2 had the advantage of a two-pilot crew, which makes it much easier! But even acknowledging that advantage, they handled their situation much more effectively. They knew what they wanted from ATC and they asked for it. They maintained composure and focus.

In both situations, ATC was doing their darndest to be helpful in assuring a successful flight.

Which pilot would I be in an emergency situation? I won't know until/unless I'm in the situation. Just ask Henning! I was listening to an interview recently with a pilot who'd had an inflight emergency and crashed, and he said he was much more comfortable flying now because he knew how he'd react in a crisis situation. (We all know how we want to react!)
 
Caravans are certified for flight into known icing. No airplane is certified for flight into severe icing, e.g. Supercooled Large Drops (SLD), OTOH.

Unless she was pulling significant G's or had gone red-line on the airspeed (I would think both would be unlikely), I wouldn't be too concerned about airframe damage. Maybe broken antenna(s) or static wick(s).

But yeah, after that level of anxiety, I think it would have been a good idea to get on the ground and regroup. Maybe fly 10 - 20 minutes to calm down and feel in control again, though.



A number of years ago (I don't know if it was before or after this recording), the recommendation came out from the FAA, NTSB, or NASA (I don't remember who) to turn off the autopilot in icing conditions so you could better sense the condition of the aircraft. Additionally, the pitot heat should have been on if in IMC anywhere near the freezing level.

Just some hypothesis here, but if the autopilot suddenly shut itself off in SLD after having run the trim all the way nose up and the pitot tube was frozen over and she hadn't popped the boots, I could see a pretty sudden loss of control. Unfortunately, add panic to the situation, and it's a doozy to handle (and no one listening to that audio will honestly say there was no panic!)

If this was a ferry flight via Bangor, what was the destination? Based on what I heard, this pilot didn't seems capable of doing a trans-Atlantic flight, so I hope it wasn't across the pond. That would also seem to be inconsistent with SAC Arrow's claim of hearing "screaming passengers in the background" (though I didn't hear that, myself).

In any event, I hope the controller got an Archie for his handling of the situation! I'd lay odds on his being a pilot himself.

As to the airliner asking if it was a woman in the Caravan, I'm pretty sure that the question was intended to positively identify the aircraft, not any sort of a sexist remark. At least I certainly hope so!

If you search flightaware for that tail number you will see a 172 registered to a ferry company crossing the pond. I believe they attach his number to aircraft they are moving since the aircraft changes.

Perhaps she was tired, perhaps she had little time in type, perhaps ???

My take from her reaction was that she was caught completely by surprise and didn't have a good understanding of what caused the problem in the first place.

One nice quality of the caravan is that it doesn't build up speed quickly when pointed down or stalled. That may also have saved her from a breakup.
 
A number of years ago (I don't know if it was before or after this recording), the recommendation came out from the FAA, NTSB, or NASA (I don't remember who) to turn off the autopilot in icing conditions so you could better sense the condition of the aircraft.

I'm amazed how many people don't know this. Most people I've flown with in or near icing were surprised when I explained it.
 
Well, since we're posting crazy ATC communications:
 
I was thinking the same thing. After something that stressful, I'd be in no condition to keep flying. I'd ask ATC to find me an airport and give me vectors.

A little strange to me too that she didn't seem worried when the OAT was at zero and she was presumably still in wet air. Makes me think she didn't really understand what got her in trouble in the first place.

If she felt safe, it might be best for her to fly on a bit and calm her nerves rather than land soonest.

I agree that she was ignorant about icing. She was still in danger of icing conditions, the controller knew it and she did not.
 
Judging from her responses, she was tooling along with the autopilot engaged, and was surprised when the autopilot gave up flying due to ice. She, understandably panicked, but it doesn't really appear she had a thorough understanding of why it gave up flying. It almost sounds like she turned on the ice equipment as an afterthought while dealing with the problem. After the ice started leaving, she was able to regain control, but she still did not have a good grasp of the reasoning behind the problem. She specifically mentioned that she was OK and had re-engaged the autopilot when she said she'd like to continue.

Icing is not something that should completely surprise you. If in conditions that even start to come close, you should be on the lookout for it, and use the systems you have to mitigate the problems associated with it.

Freezing rain can be sudden, but if you are watching for icing, you can do something about it quickly enough not to lose control of the airplane, especially if you have several thousand feet of altitude to play with and/or good ice equipment to use. This person did not know how and when to use that equipment, or did not keep an eye out for possible icing, or both.

It sounds like she had little time in type, had little experience and no confidence in her abilities in IMC and icing conditions, very little knowledge of icing conditions, and just allowed the aircraft to fly itself from point A to point B. There are a lot of instrument pilots out there that rely heavily on the autopilot. That is OK until you have a problem with the autopilot or something else that causes it to malfunction. Then you have a pilot in IMC that is over their head. Add icing to that and you have a real problem.

I speak from experience. I had to work very hard to overcome my reliance on the autopilot. It took a while and a lot of practice, but I am almost more comfortable hand flying an approach than using the autopilot now. It is still helpful when droning on in cruise, but one still has to keep their guard up against other things.
 
That gave me anxiety listening to that. Haha
You and I both!:hairraise:

This was one of the most frightening things I have listened to in a while.
Second only to the guy that flies into IMC as a VFR pilot. (See YouTube below).:yikes:

I'm pretty sure I heard screaming passengers in the background. That lady does NOT handle stress well.
Imagine if you were a non-pilot friend flying with this guy.:eek:
This guy has one thing in common with the Caravan pilot and that is the call sign ends with an "L". :dunno:
Note to self: Make sure I don't register an aircraft with the letter L.

 
You and I both!:hairraise:

Second only to the guy that flies into IMC as a VFR pilot. (See YouTube below).:yikes:


Imagine if you were a non-pilot friend flying with this guy.:eek:
This guy has one thing in common with the Caravan pilot and that is the call sign ends with an "L". :dunno:
Note to self: Make sure I don't register an aircraft with the letter L.


Actually, this guy recovered his composure quite well. VFR into IMC, inadvertent spin, apparently no idea of how to recover. Luckily, he got some good advice and a forgiving airplane flew itself out of the spin. Yes, he was freaking when he thought he was going to die but once he had it under control, I think he acquitted himself quite well.
 
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