Citabrias ...

[Marco]

Ok ... more than one person mentioned Citabrias as aerobatic planes.

While I know that they are indeed capable of some aerobatics ... I am wondering how good they really are.

My only practical experience is with the Pitts ... which probably doesn't stand a chance with Extras and the like.

But my (inexperienced) eye tells me that the Pitts would eat a Citabria for breakfast ... just looking at its shape.

Granted a Pitts 2 holer is twice the price of a Citabria (which appear to come in tandem config). So, since I am not in a position of pulling money out of my tushy ... the 50% "discount" of the Citabria is VERY VERY appealing.

My question is ... how good is a Citabria for aerobatics? Would it be able to even come close to a Pitts?

Would it be able to fly inverted for prolonged amounts of times? Forget the engine, you can install inverted carburetors on a 150 ... the problem is: are High Wing planes cabable of flying inverted and stay inverted for a while?

Can you do loops with a Citabria? With the Pitts we simply started straight an level at 160 knots and then pulled on the stick and kept pulling until we went up and around and back to straight and level.

Can the Citabria do that?

I have ZERO experience with Citabrias, never even seen one in my life. I have only seen Pitts (there's a bunch around my airport) Sukois (which look scary as hell) and a couple of Yaks.

So, anyone with knowledge of Citabrias that can shed some light?

 

[poadeleted3]

snip

the problem is: are High Wing planes cabable of flying inverted and stay inverted for a while?

I've yet to fly a Citabria, but you might want to ask an F-15 pilot if his high wing plane is capable of inverted flight or decent aerobatics

 

[Marco]

Hum ... what an interesting notion. The F15 is indeed an "high wing" ... but then again it seems like the F14 and F18 are also high wing.

Coincidentally, the F15 has a tad more power than a Citabria, so wouldn't be surprised if the F15 it can do loops ... probably better than a Pitts ...

 

[Diana]

But my (inexperienced) eye tells me that the Pitts would eat a Citabria for breakfast ... just looking at its shape.

Oh dear, "eat a Citabria for breakfast." Hmmmmmm.

Tom Beamer, this would be a good time for you to comment.

My question is ... how good is a Citabria for aerobatics? Would it be able to even come close to a Pitts?

Would it be able to fly inverted for prolonged amounts of times? Forget the engine, you can install inverted carburetors on a 150 ... the problem is: are High Wing planes cabable of flying inverted and stay inverted for a while?

Here is a break down of the different models of Citabrias and Decathlons. The Citabrias are the 7 series and the Decathlons are the 8 series.

7ECA - 115 hp Lycoming O-235 - different models up to 118 hp - no flaps
7GCAA - 150 hp Lycoming O-320 - no flaps
7GCBC - 150 hp Lycoming O-320 - flaps
7KCAB - 150 hp Lycoming IO-320 - fuel injected - inverted oil - no flaps

8GCBC - SCOUT - 180 hp Lycoming O-360 - flaps - larger model of 7GCBC -
constant speed prop optional

8KCAB - DECATHLON - 150 hp Lycoming IO-320-E1B - no flaps - fuel injected -
inverted oil semi-symetrical airfoil - constant speed prop

8KCAB - SUPER DECATHLON - 180 hp Lycoming AEIO-360-H1B - no flaps - fuel
injection - inverted oil - semi-symetrical airfoil - constant
speed prop

Citabria originally manufactured in 1966 by Champion Aircraft and in 1972??
taken over by Bellanca Aircraft Corporation until 1980. All models used the
wood spars.

American Champion Aircraft Corporation resumed limited production in 1990 and
introduced the metal spar wings at that time. Now produce the 7ECA, 7GCAA,
7GCBC, 8GCBC and the 8KCAB.

Check their website http://www.amerchampionaircraft.com/ for the latest
specifications.

The 7KCAB (Citabria) has inverted fuel and oil.

The Decathlons have inverted fuel and oil, and I believe can be inverted for up to 2 minutes. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Now, who wants to be inverted for longer than that anyway?

Can you do loops with a Citabria? With the Pitts we simply started straight an level at 160 knots and then pulled on the stick and kept pulling until we went up and around and back to straight and level.

Can the Citabria do that?

With a bit of a dive, 140 mph is the entry speed for loops.

I have ZERO experience with Citabrias, never even seen one in my life. I have only seen Pitts (there's a bunch around my airport) Sukois (which look scary as hell) and a couple of Yaks.

So, anyone with knowledge of Citabrias that can shed some light?

Have you ever watched Bobby Younkin or Greg Koontz perform at an airshow in a Decathlon? Those guys are great! They can wow a crowd with the beauty of aerobatics with those high-winged airplanes. You don't have to have a lot of horsepower or macho noise to perform aerobatics.

I flew with Bobby Younkin in his Decathlon a few months ago. That man is so "One" with his airplane, and can make a Decathlon dance and sing.

Next week, I'm going to spend several days with Greg Koontz training in my airplane and maybe some time in his Decathlon and Pitts.

Anyway, back to what a Citabria can do. I have only been doing acro in my Citabria for several months now, and can't do the fancy stuff. So far, I only do loops, rolls, Split-S, and Cuban 8's. I have done Hammerheads with an instructor. It will do snap rolls, but snaps can easily and quickly damage the airplane if not done right. My Citabria is capable of doing the Sportsman Sequence in competition if a trained person wanted to do that.

There are several other maneuvers that it can do that I hope to learn soon.

I'd talk about it more, but I have opened up my aerobatic practice area over my farm and I hear the Citabria calling.

Marc, tread lightly on the tender feelings of Citabria owners. We may not fly a Pitts, or other expensive fire-breathing aerobatic airplane, but we still do aerobatics nonetheless. Sometimes we have to try harder and overcome more to do it.

Oh, and then there is the controversial topic of how much rudder to use in an aileron roll in a Citabria. Chip, are we ready for that one again? Maybe I should start a new thread.

 

[Marco]

Marc, tread lightly on the tender feelings of Citabria owners. We may not fly a Pitts, or other expensive fire-breathing aerobatic airplane, but we still do aerobatics nonetheless. Sometimes we have to try harder and overcome more to do it.

ok ... ... Cits sound cool too. No problem with them.

As I said, I know squat about aerobatics.

All I know is that I took ONE ride ONE in a Pitts and I can't sleep anymore. I dream of it before I go to sleep.

I dream of it when I wake up. I dream of it when I eat breakfast.

I dream of it when I am stuck in traffic.

I dream of it at work, sitting at my desk. I have to struggle to pay attention to my job. Bad.

Love at first sight.

I can't stop thinking about it. I feel like going on a Pitts right now and just do loops ... for an hour.

Just loops. Nothing else.

Over and over and over and over again.

And then the next day too.

And then the next day.

And then the next day.

...

This sucks. I am so hooked it hurts . :zap!:


Thanks for all the info about the Citabrias by the way ... american champion , huh? good to know ...

 

[Diana]

ok ... ... Cits sound cool too. No problem with them.

As I said, I know squat about aerobatics.

Thanks for all the info about the Citabrias by the way ... american champion , huh? good to know ...

Here are a few pictures from the "back seat guy" while I was doing aerobatics in the Citabria. The loops were directly over my grass runways at the farm.

Perhaps Ken Ibold could add some insight about Citabrias when he gets back from SNF.

 

[Marco]

ooooook. You definetly proved you can do loops in a Cit.

Soooo... how easy is it to land and fly "normally"?

By and large the Pitts looks like a pain in the butt to takeoff and especially land.

Is the Cit more forgiving?

 

[Ed Guthrie]

My question is ... how good is a Citabria for aerobatics? Would it be able to even come close to a Pitts?

No.

Would it be able to fly inverted for prolonged amounts of times?

No.

Forget the engine, you can install inverted carburetors on a 150 ... the problem is: are High Wing planes cabable of flying inverted and stay inverted for a while?

In the words of the Monty Python routine regarding ovine aviation, "They don't fly so much as they plummet." The problem is the flat bottom airfoil. The Decathalon has a symetrical airfoil and is capable of much more "sustained" inverted flight.

Can you do loops with a Citabria?

Sure, but it requires a bit of a dive to get the airspeed.

With the Pitts we simply started straight an level at 160 knots and then pulled on the stick and kept pulling until we went up and around and back to straight and level.

Can the Citabria do that?

Not even close.

 

[Bill]

There are several other maneuvers that it can do that I hope to learn soon.

Here's what I've learned in the Citabria so far:

Steep turns
Loops
Aileron rolls
Barrel rolls
Snap rolls
Hammerhead turns
Zoom climbs
Split-S
0G pushovers (aka the vomit comet)
Spins

Oh, and then there is the controversial topic of how much rudder to use in an aileron roll in a Citabria. Chip, are we ready for that one again? Maybe I should start a new thread.

I can hear my instructor now: "You don't have enough rudder in, get that full rudder on and the ailerons all the way over. Now that is an aileron roll, THAT IS AN AILERON ROLL."

I love it when a 20,000hr+ guy still gets excited to teach and see people learn.

 

[gismo]

Ok ... more than one person mentioned Citabrias as aerobatic planes.

While I know that they are indeed capable of some aerobatics ... I am wondering how good they really are.

My only practical experience is with the Pitts ... which probably doesn't stand a chance with Extras and the like.

But my (inexperienced) eye tells me that the Pitts would eat a Citabria for breakfast ... just looking at its shape.

Granted a Pitts 2 holer is twice the price of a Citabria (which appear to come in tandem config). So, since I am not in a position of pulling money out of my tushy ... the 50% "discount" of the Citabria is VERY VERY appealing.

My question is ... how good is a Citabria for aerobatics? Would it be able to even come close to a Pitts?

Would it be able to fly inverted for prolonged amounts of times? Forget the engine, you can install inverted carburetors on a 150 ... the problem is: are High Wing planes cabable of flying inverted and stay inverted for a while?

Can you do loops with a Citabria? With the Pitts we simply started straight an level at 160 knots and then pulled on the stick and kept pulling until we went up and around and back to straight and level.

Can the Citabria do that?

I have ZERO experience with Citabrias, never even seen one in my life. I have only seen Pitts (there's a bunch around my airport) Sukois (which look scary as hell) and a couple of Yaks.

So, anyone with knowledge of Citabrias that can shed some light?

First the Pitts is indeed in a different class than a Citabria. Even the much more capable Decathalon is no match for a Pitts. That said there's lots you can do with a Citabria beyond straight and level and many folks insist that you are better off learning basic acro in a Citabria because the more advanced acro birds let you get away with too much on simple maneuvers. Energy management is a big thing in aerobatics even if you have a 350 HP screaming monster engine, and you will learn a lot more about energy management when the supply is, shall we say, a bit more limited. Also the slower roll rate and higher stick forces of a Citabria tend to allow for a better understanding of what's going in in a maneuver than something that gets you through a roll in the blink of an eye.

Second, it takes a lot more than an "inverted carb" to allow negative g flight. You need an inverted oil system, a header fuel tank with a flop tube, and either a pressure carb or fuel injection. And yes, there are high winged airplanes with all the necessary equipment for sustained level inverted flight.

Third, legalities aside, you can fly loops in any airplane or even a glider. With sufficient power to achieve the required entry speed in level flight (like the Pitts or Extra) you can start a loop without having to dive for airspeed first like is necessary in a Citabria.

Finally, there are many characteristics that benefit an experienced acro pilot (which I don't profess to be BTW), including symmetrical airfoils, rudder and aileron spades, fuselage viewports, and attitude reference fixtures, but you can fly basic aerobatics without any of that. Negative G flight with a cambered wing requires a significantly higher AOA than you need with a symmetrical one, but I can't think of an existing airplane wing that wouldn't generate sufficient lift to sustain flight when inverted. Even more important is the strucural strength necessary to handle things like snap rolls, tailslides, and tumbles. Attempting those in something like a Citabria is asking for damage to the airframe.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Late to the party (there was some kind of air show I had to go to ...)

To sum up: A Pitts is a dedicated acro machine that in its time was world class (and is still very good, even by modern standards). A Citabria is not and never was.

 

[pete177]

Uh....Ok.....Prozak

ok ... ... Cits sound cool too. No problem with them.

As I said, I know squat about aerobatics.

All I know is that I took ONE ride ONE in a Pitts and I can't sleep anymore. I dream of it before I go to sleep.

I dream of it when I wake up. I dream of it when I eat breakfast.

I dream of it when I am stuck in traffic.

I dream of it at work, sitting at my desk. I have to struggle to pay attention to my job. Bad.

Love at first sight.

I can't stop thinking about it. I feel like going on a Pitts right now and just do loops ... for an hour.

Just loops. Nothing else.

Over and over and over and over again.

And then the next day too.

And then the next day.

And then the next day.

...

This sucks. I am so hooked it hurts . :zap!:


Thanks for all the info about the Citabrias by the way ... american champion , huh? good to know ...

 

[gonvrtd]

Marco, No a Citabria is not a Pitts but it is still a joy to fly and turn over a couple of times. Just look at the name closley....Citabria backwards is Airbatic.