Another interesting event at FTG

[Clark1961]

Mari and I witnessed the "arrival" of an experimental taildragger today at FTG. We were lingering over lunch and saw an SUV with all sorts of flashing lights drive slowly onto the ramp. Shortly afterwards the small (pickup sized) fire truck drove on the ramp and then with the flashy light SUV drove to taxiway A7. They sat there awhile.

Then we noticed the "arrival" of a small plane on the Alpha taxiway. It bounced pretty good about three times and then coasted to A6 where it turned off Alpha and stopped short of the ramp. The engine was not running on the roll-out. The flashy light SUV and the fire truck drove to the plane and all sorts of folks helped push the plane to the ramp.

I asked the FBO staff what was happening and they said the pilot called before departure and asked for the equipment to standby. The plane hadn't be flown in quite awhile (6+ years or so) and they wanted the fire truck handy.

My question: why on earth would anyone attempt to fly a plane they had that little confidence in?

 

[denverpilot]

It's a Holiday weekend... As I said in the other thread... Amateur Hour.

 

[wabower]

Wouldn't rolling the equipment be evidence of good judgement rather than bad?

I asked the FBO staff what was happening and they said the pilot called before departure and asked for the equipment to standby. The plane hadn't be flown in quite awhile (6+ years or so) and they wanted the fire truck handy.

My question: why on earth would anyone attempt to fly a plane they had that little confidence in?

 

[Clark1961]

Wouldn't rolling the equipment be evidence of good judgement rather than bad?

Letseeherenow, flying a plane with little confidence in is poor judgment, calling for the equipment is good judgment. Net is no judgment? I dunno.

 

[wabower]

Depends on the circumstances. Had thorough prep and MX been done correctly by a qualified person who was playing it extra-safe? Or had nothing been done and he was hoping for the best?

Letseeherenow, flying a plane with little confidence in is poor judgment, calling for the equipment is good judgment. Net is no judgment? I dunno.

 

[Teller1900]

Wouldn't rolling the equipment be evidence of good judgement rather than bad?

I don't know, seems that if you have to call the CFR trucks BEFORE takeoff, and still continue to takeoff, that's questionable judgement at best. I'd be curious what the FAA would say about flying something in that sort of condition.

 

[Everskyward]

I don't know, seems that if you have to call the CFR trucks BEFORE takeoff, and still continue to takeoff, that's questionable judgement at best. I'd be curious what the FAA would say about flying something in that sort of condition.

Also the CFR "truck" is probably not what people are imagining. At first I thought they were waiting for someone to come in with a possible gear problem but then decided they would have brought a bigger truck...

 

[Clark1961]

Depends on the circumstances. Had thorough prep and MX been done correctly by a qualified person who was playing it extra-safe? Or had nothing been done and he was hoping for the best?

I believe the truth lies somewhere between the extremes. It is quite possible the engine failure was not predictable. That said, the circumstances are certainly less than ideal. The "arrival" did not have the appearance of a thought out or planned event at all. The aircraft was way to fast and the pilot did not have the presence to hold it off until it was ready to land. He only had 8,000' to work with...

To put it in perspective: I've seen student pilots land better on their first practice engine-outs to the runway.

 

[wabower]

In planes they hadn't flown for six years?

I believe the truth lies somewhere between the extremes. It is quite possible the engine failure was not predictable. That said, the circumstances are certainly less than ideal. The "arrival" did not have the appearance of a thought out or planned event at all. The aircraft was way to fast and the pilot did not have the presence to hold it off until it was ready to land. He only had 8,000' to work with...

To put it in perspective: I've seen student pilots land better on their first practice engine-outs to the runway.

 

[N801BH]

............... He only had 8,000' to work with...

.

8000 feet.... Oh the horror.... Guy is lucky to survive.

 

[Everskyward]

In planes they hadn't flown for six years?

As I understand it the plane hadn't flown for six years. To me it looked like some sort of RV or other little experimental like that. You would think that whoever the pilot was would have been current in that type.

 

[Clark1961]

In planes they hadn't flown for six years?

Well, it might seem that way. They are students after all.

Wayne, I don't know the correct description here. It seems to me that one shouldn't go flying in a plane if one doesn't think it will make it around the pattern. That's all.

Heck, I downed my plane just because it experienced a transient miss for a short period. I dunno what other people do but if there's an engine problem then I'm in the get it fixed club rather than the let's see if it'll fly club. Yup, I may spend more for the mechanic but that's the way it is.

 

[wabower]

When do you know everything you need or want to know when you're working with a plane with such a history? We'll be flying our L-2 in a few weeks (or so they've been telling us for the past few hundred weeks) that hasn't been flown for more years than that, and with a new engine that has been pickled for several years and run for about 5 minutes since OH. Everything has been done as well as the shops know how to do it, but you can put me down as nervous.

If you got any spare trucks at your place you can send them here for the test flight.

Well, it might seem that way. They are students after all.

Wayne, I don't know the correct description here. It seems to me that you don't go flying in a plane that you don't think will make it around the pattern. That's all.

 

[Clark1961]

When do you know everything you need or want to know when you're working with a plane with such a history? We'll be flying our L-2 in a few weeks (or so they've been telling us for the past few hundred weeks) that hasn't been flown for more years than that, and with a new engine that has been pickled for several years and run for about 5 minutes since OH. Everything has been done as well as the shops know how to do it, but you can put me down as nervous.

If you got any spare trucks at your place you can send them here for the test flight.

I'll tell you what my A&P told me. Ground run the engine until you know it'll work. Five minutes doesn't even begin to cut it.

 

[wabower]

That was just to see if it would start and run before they continued with the install and mods necessary to finalize the switch to the o-200 vs the 65. And I'll be nervously watching vs nervously flying it.

I'll tell you what my A&P told me. Ground run the engine until you know it'll work. Five minutes doesn't even begin to cut it.

 

[denverpilot]

How do we know the guy in this Exp didn't already do that and it still failed?

The airport folks are probably a little touchy after the fatal too. CFR may have been someone else's call after the long response time the other day. It folks touchy about Exp test flights.

Really not enough info to go on here. Maybe best to go ask instead of guessing? Dennis probably knows the whole story and at least two here talk to him on a regular basis.

Owner of the Exp may also say it's none of our business.

I have no problem with someone asking CFR to stand by for a test flight. What else they gonna do? Sit in the firehouse?

 

[Clark1961]

I have no problem with someone asking CFR to stand by for a test flight. What else they gonna do? Sit in the firehouse?

CFR at FTG isn't like APA or BJC. It's the linemen in a pickup.

The pilot obviously wasn't ready for an engine-out. He bounced bad and was twitchy on the rollout.

All things put together, it appears to be poorly done. I'm in agreement that the perpetrators will tell us to mind our own business.

 

[denverpilot]

The photos showed a real fire truck at the fatal. They have a brush truck and a bigger one?

South Metro Station 35 near KAPA wouldn't have a real CFR truck if it weren't for it being donated by a multimillionaire who flies/flew often out of the airport. South Metro couldn't afford to buy one.

Interesting side note from the tour of Station 35 and the rig...

It's equipped with Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) so as to not run over victims (or still warm body parts) that have been tossed away from the main wreckage, when operating in dense smoke or weather.

It can also lay down its own foam or water path through under-vehicle sprayers to get through burning fuel or wreckage to get closer in to the main wreckage, whereas a ground fuel fire will generally stop normal rigs from approaching. It also has the top-mounted remote-control water and foam cannon so no firefighter has to be up there in intense heat.

Pretty spiffy truck. Nice of some anonymous donor to buy it for South Metro Fire many moons ago.

 

[murphey]

The photos showed a real fire truck at the fatal. They have a brush truck and a bigger one?

Due to the distance between FTG and pretty much anyplace else, there's a full-time Bennett fireman stationed at FTG. The firetruck has been there for many years AFAIK along with a couple small trucks that can carry extinguishers and other equipment.

 

[Henning]

Mari and I witnessed the "arrival" of an experimental taildragger today at FTG. We were lingering over lunch and saw an SUV with all sorts of flashing lights drive slowly onto the ramp. Shortly afterwards the small (pickup sized) fire truck drove on the ramp and then with the flashy light SUV drove to taxiway A7. They sat there awhile.

Then we noticed the "arrival" of a small plane on the Alpha taxiway. It bounced pretty good about three times and then coasted to A6 where it turned off Alpha and stopped short of the ramp. The engine was not running on the roll-out. The flashy light SUV and the fire truck drove to the plane and all sorts of folks helped push the plane to the ramp.

I asked the FBO staff what was happening and they said the pilot called before departure and asked for the equipment to standby. The plane hadn't be flown in quite awhile (6+ years or so) and they wanted the fire truck handy.

My question: why on earth would anyone attempt to fly a plane they had that little confidence in?

Somebody has to, how else you think it gets done? First time my 310 flew in over 12 years I flew from Deer Valley to Stead and landed at night, not even a lap around the pattern. By the time I got there I had the full squawk sheet.

 

[Henning]

As I understand it the plane hadn't flown for six years. To me it looked like some sort of RV or other little experimental like that. You would think that whoever the pilot was would have been current in that type.

Why would you think that? Very likely he hasn't flown an RV in 6 years either.

 

[Everskyward]

Seems like anyone with any sense would not take an airplane they were not current in for its first flight in six years.

 

[Henning]

Seems like anyone with any sense would not take an airplane they were not current in for its first flight in six years.

In the experimental world it happens all the time.

 

[Everskyward]

In the experimental world it happens all the time.

That's one of the reasons their accident rate is much higher.

 

[Henning]

That's one of the reasons their accident rate is much higher.

Not arguing the validity of your point a bit, but after checking ones self out in a few single seat aircraft, the proposition seems considerably less daunting.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Back in 1990 when FTG was still pretty new and most of you guys were just pups my student and I watched a Cessna 152 on takeoff get pushed right back into the ground by a micro burst over there. That was back when Lowry AFB still had an aero-club over at Buckley and you could rent a T-34A for 36 bucks an hour ! Ah, nostaglia

 

[murphey]

Back in 1990 when FTG was still pretty new and most of you guys were just pups my student and I watched a Cessna 152 on takeoff get pushed right back into the ground by a micro burst over there. That was back when Lowry AFB still had an aero-club over at Buckley and you could rent a T-34A for 36 bucks an hour ! Ah, nostaglia

Those microbursts still happen. Winds can be completely different at the ends of 8-26.

 

[Anthony]

I was based at FTG for three years. I had the winds change direction entering the pattern several times. First they favored 26, then they favored 35. It went back and forth, and was blowing pretty hard at a steady 30 mph. I was thankfull it wasn't really gusty. I switched runways a few times, talking to the tower, finally I just picked one, and it took all the rudder I had to land the Tiger which is a great crosswind airplane.

The weather and the winds can get squirrely their in a heartbeat, but I still think its a little better than Jeffco, oh excuse me Rocky Mountain Metro.

 

[denverpilot]

Back in 1990 when FTG was still pretty new and most of you guys were just pups my student and I watched a Cessna 152 on takeoff get pushed right back into the ground by a micro burst over there. That was back when Lowry AFB still had an aero-club over at Buckley and you could rent a T-34A for 36 bucks an hour ! Ah, nostaglia

I've been around that long. I'm not old. Damnit.

I bid on the 150 from the aero club when they shut it down with a friend. Closed bid... Missed it by $500. Cherry little 150 and they had just hung a new engine on it. I think it ended up going to Kansas.

 

[denverpilot]

The weather and the winds can get squirrely their in a heartbeat, but I still think its a little better than Jeffco, oh excuse me Rocky Mountain Metro.

The modern meaning of "Metro" makes that airport's name change very funny, considering it was to make it have a sexier younger image. Heh heh.

I soooooo badly want to say, "Metrosexual Tower..." on the radio...

 

[gkainz]

The modern meaning of "Metro" makes that airport's name change very funny, considering it was to make it have a sexier younger image. Heh heh.

I soooooo badly want to say, "Metrosexual Tower..." on the radio...

I dare ya! I double dog dare ya! Just let me know when you're inbound so I can be up at the same time. It would be freakin hilarious!
My calls are usually "Jeff-uh-Metro ... " somewhat unintentional, perhaps passively aggressive?

 

[Z06_Mir]

Are any of us really 100% sure that our airplanes will perform perfect every time we fly? No, probably not. I'm pretty sure my engine is healthy and free of defects, but things happen. My Jeep had a catastrophic engine failure at 47k miles. We put in a built, forged motor for safety since we didn't want to do this again (okay, and cause everything needs more power). Last weekend is broke a valve spring and we don't know the extent of the damage yet... things happen. To cars, to airplanes... to everything. The only difference was I got to pull over both times. In the airplane we aren't typically afforded that luxury.

 

[N801BH]

Are any of us really 100% sure that our airplanes will perform perfect every time we fly? No, probably not. I'm pretty sure my engine is healthy and free of defects, but things happen. My Jeep had a catastrophic engine failure at 47k miles. We put in a built, forged motor for safety since we didn't want to do this again (okay, and cause everything needs more power). Last weekend is broke a valve spring and we don't know the extent of the damage yet... things happen. To cars, to airplanes... to everything. The only difference was I got to pull over both times. In the airplane we aren't typically afforded that luxury.

So true...... try stuffing a V-8 Ford into a experimental with no flight data for that combo and hope for the best.. So far... So good.

 

[Z06_Mir]

That looks like a blast! Someday I'll put an LS1 (LS7?!) into an airplane.

 

[Art VanDelay]

I've been around that long. I'm not old. Damnit.

I bid on the 150 from the aero club when they shut it down with a friend. Closed bid... Missed it by $500. Cherry little 150 and they had just hung a new engine on it. I think it ended up going to Kansas.

We only had one 150 and IIRC it was blue and white. The others were 152s.

 

[Anthony]

My calls are usually "Jeff-uh-Metro ... " somewhat unintentional, perhaps passively aggressive?

Love it. Proceed with the passive aggressiveness sir.

 

[Anthony]

Are any of us really 100% sure that our airplanes will perform perfect every time we fly? No, probably not. I'm pretty sure my engine is healthy and free of defects, but things happen. My Jeep had a catastrophic engine failure at 47k miles. We put in a built, forged motor for safety since we didn't want to do this again (okay, and cause everything needs more power). Last weekend is broke a valve spring and we don't know the extent of the damage yet... things happen. To cars, to airplanes... to everything. The only difference was I got to pull over both times. In the airplane we aren't typically afforded that luxury.

Yeah, that is a BIG difference as you note. I would not takeoff in any airplane that sat for six years without a thorough annual inspection including a very thorough look at the engine, pulling a cylinder or two and inspecting the crank.

 

[murphey]

I dare ya! I double dog dare ya! Just let me know when you're inbound so I can be up at the same time. It would be freakin hilarious!
My calls are usually "Jeff-uh-Metro ... " somewhat unintentional, perhaps passively aggressive?

Not long after the name change, I flew over there, and called "Jeffco Tower" and was rewarded with a very impertinent "This is Rocky Mountain Metro". To which I replied "But you'll always be Jeffco to me!"

We need to coordinate multiple inbounds....

 

[Bobcat1]

Seems like anyone with any sense would not take an airplane they were not current in for its first flight in six years.

Who's to say that he wasn't current? It's a non issue if it's single seat.

 

[Everskyward]

Who's to say that he wasn't current? It's a non issue if it's single seat.

I didn't say he wasn't current. I said that it wouldn't make sense not to be current, at least in some similar type.