All examinees of DPE Edward L. Lane to be required to re-test

[TMetzinger]

John?

Have you received a retest letter?

 

[douglas393]

Tim,

A number of posts above John said he got a certified letter which is being held at the post office. He insinuated he was not going to pick it up. Reading between the lines I think he thinks that may be the letter.

Doug

 

[SkyHog]

I'll just sent this to AOPA tonight. They really need to be involved:

To AOPA,

What is a coward? Its such an overused term these days, that I feel that people have just forgotten what it means. To truly be a coward, one must shirk a basic responsibility in lieu of taking the easier path without resistance. For example, seeing a person get mugged and standing by and letting it happen, despite having a weapon that would stop it immediately.

Another great example? Ignoring the hundreds of your members that are affected by the wrong doing of either a DPE or the FAA. Note that the FAA is revoking hundreds of certificates without any stated reasoning or any chance to fight it. Where is AOPA on this? Playing games with Jim Campbell? Come on...

This is why you are losing members, and why you are looked at as a joke. You have become an organization of cowards. Stand up, do what you're paid to do - stand up for the pilots affected. You've lost my membership money based on your previous inaction elsewhere. This might be what you need to prove that you actually still serve a purpose to pilots today.

Sincerely,
Nick Brennan

If you would like to discuss this further, call me at (NUMBER REMOVED).

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'll just sent this to AOPA tonight. They really need to be involved:

Good luck. Let us know if they respond with anything other than a suggestion to join the legal services plan.

 

[\__[Ô]__/]

So you start off by calling them cowards, then raise the stakes by telling them you're not even a member of their organisation?

You better be waiting by phone at start of business tomorrow. Calling you is gonna be their top priority.

(but yeah, i don't disagree with anything in your letter.)

 

[Fearless Tower]

So you start off by calling them cowards, then raise the stakes by telling them you're not even a member of their organisation?

You better be waiting by phone at start of business tomorrow. Calling you is gonna be their top priority.

(but yeah, i don't disagree with anything in your letter.)

You actually think they care any more about their actual (declining) membership???

Craig still claims to be 'suprised' that folks are leaving AOPA.

 

[schmookeeg]

I am training/prepping someone affected by this currently -- it was his MEI add-on. Luckily he is in a position to pay for re-training, and his proficiency is high. That said, I think it will approach $3,000 in costs for the retake. (I'm not even charging him for my time)

Even though his add-on is all that was called into question, and even though the letter indicates that the PTS "used for his exam" is the one in play, we're both treating it like an MEI Initial ride, and making sure he can still speak eloquently on FOI topics, and shows up with a complete set of lesson plans, ready to stare the ASI in the eye.

His retake is in 8 days. I can advise if there are any shenanigans on the ride, but I think our approach is the correct one. If he is still angry after defending his MEI to the FSDO, then maybe he can attempt to recover his costs from Lane or Sheble. I'm hoping the relief of a passed 709 will wash that desire away, and he moves on and adds an amusing tale to his repertoire.

I think the alarm in this thread is amusing. In my experience, nobody goes to Sheble to learn -- they go to pass a checkride. It's certainly why I went there -- to finish up one of my non-critical ratings. Where else can you knock a rating out in a weekend?

Surely their... efficiency... draws additional warmth from the feds? They're hardly a low-profile outfit. Everyone knows about them over here, and I think they have a place on the training menu -- even if it carries a higher risk of this exact 709 nonsense.

$0.02

 

[denverpilot]

If he is still angry after defending his MEI to the FSDO, then maybe he can attempt to recover his costs from Lane or Sheble. I'm hoping the relief of a passed 709 will wash that desire away, and he moves on and adds an amusing tale to his repertoire.

A $3000 loss is not an "amusing tale".

The alarm raised in the thread isn't about FAA saying "some checkrides were iffy", it's about the sheer number of them, and no information about the alleged infractions by the DPE anywhere. Nor any indication of the true timeline of those rides. How long was the FAA clueless?

Let's be kind and say most students aren't re-prepping for an MEI ride. We'll say it'll cost the average student $2000, just to make up a number.

That's a $1.4M screw up by one DPE and the FAA that supposedly had full regulatory control over him throughout the entire time period.

 

[zaitcev]

The alarm raised in the thread isn't about FAA saying "some checkrides were iffy", it's about the sheer number of them, and no information about the alleged infractions by the DPE anywhere. (...)

I met with a gentleman who had exposure to details. I promised not to re-share what I heard, but based on that information, it is my opinion that nobody should be given the re-test. If FAA higher-ups decide to publish the case against Mr. Lane, other members of flying public may come to the same conclusion.

I think at this point that someone needs to execute a FOIA procedure if we to know what happened. Surprising that nobody among our fine aviation journalists bothered to look into it. That's what the institution press ought to be doing, not posting puff pieces about expensive turboprops and jets.

 

[SkyHog]

BTW - AOPA did not respond.

 

[N801BH]

BTW - AOPA did not respond.

I am absolutely shocked...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

BTW - AOPA did not respond.

Given the manner in which you wrote to them, I wouldn't respond either, even if I agreed with you 100%. I'm not sure what you proved (or what you were trying to prove, except "Nick doesn't like AOPA.")

 

[Jim Logajan]

I think at this point that someone needs to execute a FOIA procedure if we to know what happened.

That may be redundant. I believe the "Pilot's Bill of Rights" (PBoR) is applicable to those affected. As I understand it, the statute now requires the FAA to apply the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the Federal Rules of Evidence, which I think allows discovery of any evidence by a pilot whose certificate is threatened with revocation. It may even be that the FAA has a duty to disclose such evidence.

I think any advice made earlier to "not bother lawyering up" is based on pre-PBoR thinking and a dis-service to the affected pilots. As I understand it, the rights of pilots should now be more in line with standard civil procedures and more of the burden is on the FAA to show its case, not the other way around.

A well-heeled pilot who has been affected by this may consider employing a lawyer to plow through the statutes and regulations to see what the options are under the new PBoR.

 

[SkyHog]

Given the manner in which you wrote to them, I wouldn't respond either, even if I agreed with you 100%. I'm not sure what you proved (or what you were trying to prove, except "Nick doesn't like AOPA.")

The point was (and is) that this is something that affects a VERY large number of their current subscription base. There's not a whole lot of active pilots right now - for hundreds of them to be facing expulsion is pretty big. And for AOPA to take no action either way is cowardly (but predictable).

Just think of the "wow, thank God for AOPA" moment if AOPA got off their ass and actually tried to help its membership, just this once.

But hey - thank god they offer a wine club and a partnership program that actually increases prices instead of reducing them.

 

[Palmpilot]

If only 100 of the 500+ pilots affected by this pooled their resources, I bet they could afford to hire a first rate lawyer.

 

[N801BH]

If only 100 of the 500+ pilots affected by this pooled their resources, I bet they could afford to hire a first rate lawyer.

Based on what I understand of this whole Fiasco no one should be required to pay a red cent to be reinstated...... The comment a while back was the best solution.. Have the CFI's who give the pilots, who are about to lose their certificates, a expanded BFR the next time they are due.. if they pass that BFR then all is good... To have to pool money together to hire an attorney is downright BS.. .. IMHO..

 

[SkyHog]

You know, what drives me nuts is that there are a group of people that apparently know the story, and for some reason or another, they're fine with Edward Lane's name getting dragged through the mud. That leads me to believe one of two possible stories here:

1. Edward Lane is every bit a problem as I (and others) have said, and he is a danger to aviation.
2. People have been paying him to automatically pass their checkrides.

Unfortunately, if its neither of the above, the public will continue to perceive it this way because "Mum's the word!"

Regardless of which is it (1 or 2 above), the pilots are being hosed here, and its frustrating to see so many pilots getting screwed over something they likely had no control over.

 

[John Baker]

You know, what drives me nuts is that there are a group of people that apparently know the story, and for some reason or another, they're fine with Edward Lane's name getting dragged through the mud. That leads me to believe one of two possible stories here:

1. Edward Lane is every bit a problem as I (and others) have said, and he is a danger to aviation.
2. People have been paying him to automatically pass their checkrides.

Unfortunately, if its neither of the above, the public will continue to perceive it this way because "Mum's the word!"

Regardless of which is it (1 or 2 above), the pilots are being hosed here, and its frustrating to see so many pilots getting screwed over something they likely had no control over.

.....

 

[Mike_Flys]

Based on what I and of this whole Fiasco no one should be required to pay a red cent to be reinstated...... ..

Easy on the reinstatement term there. As far as I know no one has lost flying privileges yet. We are still flying while we get check rides, or whatever action we choose to take.

 

[Mike_Flys]

You know, what drives me nuts is that there are a group of people that apparently know the story, and for some reason or another, they're fine with Edward Lane's name getting dragged through the mud. That leads me to believe one of two possible stories here:

1. Edward Lane is every bit a problem as I (and others) have said, and he is a danger to aviation.
2. People have been paying him to automatically pass their checkrides.

As far as I know no one, short of the FAA, knows the whole story. And they have not released why they think Eddie and the check rides he gave are suspect.

Like I have previously stated I felt I had a proper check ride with Eddie. I cannot speak for the rest of the pilots.

I would like to point out that most of the pilots involved may not be on this board, and for those that are I think what John said in the post below yours covers that.

As for me:
Am I upset by this? Of course.
Unfortunately complaining about it doesn't help.
I feel getting my blood pressure up for something I can't control is pointless.

I will play the game, do my required ride and continue flying.

My $.02






Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

 

[N801BH]

As far as I know no one, short of the FAA, knows the whole story. And they have not released why they think Eddie and the check rides he gave are suspect.

Like I have previously stated I felt I had a proper check ride with Eddie. I cannot speak for the rest of the pilots.

I would like to point out that most of the pilots involved may not be on this board, and for those that are I think what John said in the post below yours covers that.

As for me:
Am I upset by this? Of course.
Unfortunately complaining about it doesn't help.
I feel getting my blood pressure up for something I can't control is pointless.

I will play the game, do my required ride and continue flying.

My $.02

As a fellow Zenith builder I am required to go easy on you... BUT..

1- If you feel you got a proper check ride from Eddie my question is..........

Did you call the FSDO and make that statement to them ?

2- It is good to know you are upset...

Did you make that fact known to the FSDO ?

3- How do you know complaining won't help if you didn't complain.

4- How do you know you can't control the situation you are in .

And finally.... As a licensed pilot you are trained to anticipate problems , analyize them and act accordingly. It is a trait of good pilots to work through issues and complete all flights safely.

When I see a comment like:

"I will play the game, do my required ride and continue flying."

makes me wonder if the engine quits on you while flying that you will not work through the problem, attempt a restart and try to land the plane under power, or will you just cave in and crash land it by playing the game of ( the engine quit, I am going down), no questions asked.....

This is hard to put into words but I bet you get my drift and where I am headed..

I guess my final question is....

Are you worried if you complain to the FAA, they will retaliate ?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Ben.

 

[Traket92X]

When I see a comment like:

"I will play the game, do my required ride and continue flying."

makes me wonder if the engine quits on you while flying that you will not work through the problem, attempt a restart and try to land the plane under power, or will you just cave in and crash land it by playing the game of ( the engine quit, I am going down), no questions asked.....

This is hard to put into words but I bet you get my drift and where I am headed..

I guess my final question is....

Are you worried if you complain to the FAA, they will retaliate ?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Ben.

Comparing spending the time and money to take on a bureaucratic behemoth they are not remotely trained to attack and a pilots response in an emergency in which they are trained is nothing more than a monster strawman...

 

[N801BH]

Comparing spending the time and money to take on a bureaucratic behemoth they are not remotely trained to attack and a pilots response in an emergency in which they are trained is nothing more than a monster strawman...

I respectfully disagree...

My question was. "did you call the FSDO".. That call costs nothing and takes maybe 3 minutes.


We will see what he says..

 

[schmookeeg]

When I see a comment like:

"I will play the game, do my required ride and continue flying."

makes me wonder if the engine quits on you while flying that you will not work through the problem, attempt a restart and try to land the plane under power, or will you just cave in and crash land it by playing the game of ( the engine quit, I am going down), no questions asked.....

This is hard to put into words but I bet you get my drift and where I am headed..

I guess my final question is....

Are you worried if you complain to the FAA, they will retaliate ?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Ben.

My story is in that camp, so I'll throw in my dude's story. Here are the assumptions being made in his case:

1. His MEI Add-on is the ride in question. Since he has MUCH more than 3k wrapped up in his instructor certificate, and since I don't believe he can surrender only his ME privilege on the CFI cert, he is choosing this path. Lawyers are more than 3k, and the hypothetical 99 other co-plaintiffs are not "at hand". His 30 days runs out about 4 days after his scheduled 709 I believe, so the odds of these affected pilots self-organizing seems microscopic. I am enough of a conspiracist to think that was by the FAA's design.

2. If he could surrender just the ME portion, he probably would, and then go back and re-ride with a DPE at his leisure (probably with Sheble again, who would actually be a great choice for that ) -- it'd be about the same cost or a pinch cheaper to beat on their travel-airs some more. Instead he had to scramble for a Baron and take time off of work locally due to the constrained deadline.

3. Complain to whom? The FAA is a faceless uncaring entity. I'm actually amazed he got the appointment without issue -- our local FSDO have been more than happy to go "oh, yeah, we'll get right on that" with checkrides and watch those 30 or 60 days sail past without so much as a shrug.

$0.02. I just realized I dug up this pot of vitriol after it had becalmed. sorry about that, ran across the thread on a google search -- search terms "Edward Lane DPE"... hehe.

- Mike

 

[Mike_Flys]

As a fellow Zenith builder I am required to go easy on you... BUT..

1- If you feel you got a proper check ride from Eddie my question is..........

Did you call the FSDO and make that statement to them ?
Yes

2- It is good to know you are upset...

Did you make that fact known to the FSDO ?
Yes

3- How do you know complaining won't help if you didn't complain.
Talked with AOPA legal, Lawyer, and read the regulations. They basically can retest you over any thing

4- How do you know you can't control the situation you are in .
I learned a long time ago to pick my battles.

And finally.... As a licensed pilot you are trained to anticipate problems , analyize them and act accordingly. It is a trait of good pilots to work through issues and complete all flights safely.
How does this relate to the FAA deciding I needed to retake a check ride 2 years latter? You must have a better crystal ball than me.

I received the letter, talked with lots of smart people, and the FSDO, weighed my options and decided to get a new rating

When I see a comment like:

"I will play the game, do my required ride and continue flying."

makes me wonder if the engine quits on you while flying that you will not work through the problem, attempt a restart and try to land the plane under power, or will you just cave in and crash land it by playing the game of ( the engine quit, I am going down), no questions asked.....

I really hate to say this to a fellow Zenith builder, but Really!!
No offense to you personally but Comments like this are why I don't participate in this forum more. How can you judge how someone will react off a few words posted on a public forum.

Maybe you should asume that I will keep a cool head in a emergency.

Should I assume you will get excited and skip the emergency check list in the same situation?
I think not.

Ask anyone who knows me in the real world (some on this forum), that have spent time with me, and even flown with me.



This is hard to put into words but I bet you get my drift and where I am headed..

I guess my final question is....

Are you worried if you complain to the FAA, they will retaliate ?
The FAA knows how I feel, and as hard to believe as it is especially with so many pilots in this ship (plane) with me it doesn't change their findings.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Ben.

Ben please see above comments in blue, and please try not to take offense.
Because you seem like a good guy (Fellow Zenith builder) I will share with you some info about me I normally don't in a public forum.

By Nature I am a fighter and very passionate. But I am also a strategical/thinker.
In most cases I choose my words carefully before posting.

If the engine goes out on the plane I'm flying. I will calmly fly the plane, and diagnosis the problem with the check list and my understanding of internal combustion engines to the best of my ability and take the appropriate actions for the situation.

Having carefully reviewed the situation before me, throughly weighing all my options. What is right for me with this is to take a check ride for a different rating that I have always wanted anyway.

Like I said I choose my battles.
Mike

BTW I don't think it's a good idea to bad mouth your boss on your face book page, or the FAA on a public forum.

my $.02

 

[John Baker]

.....l.

 

[taters]

but it sounded like someone at the Vegas FSDO had it in for him-

Marty Kay

 

[John Baker]

.....

 

[N801BH]

Mike

BTW I don't think it's a good idea to bad mouth your boss on your face book page, or the FAA on a public forum.

my $.02

Thanks for your comments Mike....

Ps. ya didn't answer the question of "did ya call the FSDO" ?

Pss.... I am my own boss

Psss.... I didn't bad mouth the FAA

Psss... What is this Facebook thing you speak of

 

[douglas393]

A bureaucrat is much like you wish your next door neighbor would be like. A smiling friendly, very polite person, who would never deliberately or knowingly do anyone harm.

Their entire working lives have been preplanned way before they showed up for their first day at work. Every little thing they do is governed by laws, regulations, and guidelines. They have a preplanned response to any situation or question that might be put to them. They are the primary example of a rule governed person.

They can smile at you and shake your hand and not have a single clue to why your are squirming simply because they are twisting the legal knife they just shoved into your back. They have done every single thing by the book, it just seems downright odd to them that you are upset. It's almost like your not being a patriotic citizen, therefore, you deserve whatever it is they have done to you. No guilt whatsoever on their part.

Just the friendly guy next door doing his job, nothing more.

-John

John-

I think you underestimate the beauracrat. They know exactly what they are doing to you, and make jokes at your expense behind your back and sometimes to your face.

Doug

 

[Mike_Flys]

Thanks for your comments Mike....

Ps. ya didn't answer the question of "did ya call the FSDO" ?

Pss.... I am my own boss

Psss.... I didn't bad mouth the FAA

Psss... What is this Facebook thing you speak of

Re read my reply. I did answer the question. But to answer it more throughly. Yes, I did call the FSDO.

Boils down to this.
I'm not sure what they have determined was wrong with some of Eddies rides. But if it's a safety issue then I understand why they think we all need check rides. If one or 2 were suspect for safety then how can you trust any of them.
I don't like it, not sure if there wasn't a better choice of action but I don't have all the facts.

FSDO is letting me take a check ride for a different rating so at least I'm getting something more for my effort.

And I want some additional ratings anyway so it's ok.

I will let everyone know how my new ratting PT goes. It's a couple weeks out yet.

Mike

Sorry less of a word Smith at 5:30am on my phone.

Also my own boss

Face book is how you track your kids these days





Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The point was (and is) that this is something that affects a VERY large number of their current subscription base. There's not a whole lot of active pilots right now - for hundreds of them to be facing expulsion is pretty big. And for AOPA to take no action either way is cowardly (but predictable).

How do you know they took no action? It may well be that they looked into it and came to the same conclusion as everyone else - That there's nothing that can be done.

But hey - thank god they offer a wine club and a partnership program that actually increases prices instead of reducing them.

How does the partnership program increase prices?

 

[Fearless Tower]

How do you know they took no action? It may well be that they looked into it and came to the same conclusion as everyone else - That there's nothing that can be done.

Well, based on that organizations track record, IF they had actually attempted to do something, they would be very vocal about it.

The silence speaks volumes.

And again I say it is truly puzzling to me that Craig is 'puzzled' that folks keep leaving AOPA.

 

[John Baker]

John-

I think you underestimate the beauracrat. They know exactly what they are doing to you, and make jokes at your expense behind your back and sometimes to your face.

Doug

.......

 

[John Baker]

.......

 

[rpadula]

A $3000 loss is not an "amusing tale".

The alarm raised in the thread isn't about FAA saying "some checkrides were iffy", it's about the sheer number of them, and no information about the alleged infractions by the DPE anywhere. Nor any indication of the true timeline of those rides. How long was the FAA clueless?

Let's be kind and say most students aren't re-prepping for an MEI ride. We'll say it'll cost the average student $2000, just to make up a number.

That's a $1.4M screw up by one DPE and the FAA that supposedly had full regulatory control over him throughout the entire time period.

Pfft. That's chump change. You ever read the comments on a proposed AD? There's always one joker who claims the fix is too expensive based on math you just did (AD $$ cost x number of planes in the fleet) and they always get swatted down. Tough noogies.

 

[SkyHog]

How do you know they took no action? It may well be that they looked into it and came to the same conclusion as everyone else - That there's nothing that can be done.

AOPA is one of those groups that likes to be on the tips of everyone's tongue, whether they did anything or not. If AOPA had done anything, they'd have announced something like "AOPA to begin negotiations with the FAA."

Unless we're seeing an organization that is really only taking credit for their own successes, and no one else's (I doubt that's true), then its clear they have taken no action, nor researched this.

But - to expand your point, giving AOPA the benefit of the doubt, they should have said something like "Its unfortunate, but its necessary, and the FAA is acting appropriately." or something like that. Something that justifies spending money on their organization.

How does the partnership program increase prices?

Do you not remember the fiasco with (I think it was) Hertz? Rent a car for $x.xx, or apply your coupon code to spend a higher rate.

 

[Fearless Tower]

AOPA is one of those groups that likes to be on the tips of everyone's tongue, whether they did anything or not. If AOPA had done anything, they'd have announced something like "AOPA to begin negotiations with the FAA."

Unless we're seeing an organization that is really only taking credit for their own successes, and no one else's (I doubt that's true), then its clear they have taken no action, nor researched this.

EXACTLY!

 

[denverpilot]

Pfft. That's chump change. You ever read the comments on a proposed AD? There's always one joker who claims the fix is too expensive based on math you just did (AD $$ cost x number of planes in the fleet) and they always get swatted down. Tough noogies.

Understood, but you hear about the ADs in at least four magazines long before it's implemented and the organizations whine and moan and they happen anyway. You see the type club get involved and recommend alternatives. (Even if they're not followed...) The pilot community at large has time to react.

Plus, I think we're talking about very different things here. Some of the pilots being retested have been flying for YEARS after their rides with this DPE. An AD is often time critical because the situation is getting WORSE.

There's no evidence this is the case with pilots who had a bad checkride two years ago. There isn't even any public evidence that there's even a problem, really. Just a letter that days "retake your ride".

FAA putting a 30 day retest time on 500 or more pilots is suspicious. Mainly because they know the lead time on aviation magazines is at least 60 days.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well, based on that organizations track record, IF they had actually attempted to do something, they would be very vocal about it.

The silence speaks volumes.

Disagree - Based on AOPA's track record, they'd be very vocal about it *if they were successful at getting something done.* I don't think they trumpet their failures very often.