Is this normal, or kind of a jerk move?

When confronted with such behavior, I'm never sure whether it's the first time the individual has exhibited this trait, but it's also clear that it can't be allowed to continue. I have a sneaky hunch that exposing this latest bit of chicken-shlttery to light may be just the tip of the iceberg insofar as his deficiencies are concerned.
 
I've never dealt with FSDO before - would the conversation be something like, "Mr FSDO: I am a student and have a logbook that a previous CFI of mine modified the other day. I have my current CFI with me. We were both present at the time the changes were made. Could you inspect my logbook and advise me on how to note the modifications so it will never become a problem?"
 
Matthew said:
I've never dealt with FSDO before - would the conversation be something like, "Mr FSDO: I am a student and have a logbook that a previous CFI of mine modified the other day. I have my current CFI with me. We were both present at the time the changes were made. Could you inspect my logbook and advise me on how to note the modifications so it will never become a problem?"
Click to expand...
That sounds like a really good way to phrase it.
 
A good idea would be to first confront this CFI, with the appropriate legal references in hand. I doubt he or she realized a federal crime was being committed.
 
I suggest simpler:

My new CFI and I wish to discuss a student pilot certificate alteration and logbook alteration, recently made by my former CFI.

I still do not grasp his exact action: Did he scribble it out? Did he date and
sign his alteration? Is it a complete new entry, that retracts that his prior
entries?
 
> confront this CFI, with the appropriate legal references in hand. I doubt
> he or she realized a federal crime was being committed.

I disagree. Leave it to the FSDO to address the rules (re-educate the original CFI).
 
denverpilot said:
By the way, agreed with everyone else on the scenario presented. He destroyed a legal document. That needs to be rectified in your logbook.

Trust me. Fix it. The DPE today paged through every page of all three of my logbooks and asked questions about things that caught his eye that I did in 1992-1994. And he was well within his rights to do so.
Click to expand...

Arggggghhh! Is this what I have to look forward to? I've nver been able to keep my electronic logbook and paper logbook in sync. I wonder if my local DPE (Drew) will be kinder.

rats.
 
Ditto that.

You say your current CFI witnessed the logbook vandalism by the old CFI?

I also think you go to the FDSO to get guidance. The logbook is YOUR primary concern. The CFI who vandalized it is the FDSOs.
 
Buy a brand new logbook, sit down with the old instructor and advise him that you need to re-create all the entries along with his endorsements because he created a situation that makes it appear that your solo flights may have been done illegally since there are no longer any legible solo endorsements. If he objects, suggest that he either offer you refunds or talk to the FSDO with you.

Having a witness woudn't be a bad idea.

Print out a copy of the regulations regarding logging time and re-creating lost / damaged log books.
 
Old Geek said:
Frankly, I'd want a refund for at least 1/2 his hourly rate that he charged you while you were earning those endorsements. Would that be a jerk thing to ask for?
Click to expand...

gismo said:
I'd tell the jerk I want my money back that he charged me for instruction. And if he refused I'd take him to conciliation court even if I had no chance to win. He had absolutely no right to do what he did, the logbook, medical and all contained within were your property.
Click to expand...

+1 to the above. At first I thought eh its just CYA but then I thought .....wait you paid this guy to bring you to a certain point in your training! You paid to get you to that endorsement. Then he goes and takes it away.

Imagine that in anyother aspect of your life or business. Lets say you pay a painter to paint your house, you pay him half of his fee he paints half of the house and then you decide to switch painters. Then the old painter comes and scratches up the half of the house he already painted.

Yea the guys a jerk. I can understand his concern for liabiltiy issues but you paid him and then he took back what you paid him for.
 
Let's assume the flight time done on the solo endorsements was worth several thousand dollars and a lot of your time. In effect this punk MFer with a fragile petty little ego destroyed that with his pen. Scribbling it out to the point the original entry wasn't legible is WAY over the top IMO.

After I saw that, I would have put his Raybans, Breitling, epaulets, and pen somewhere they wouldn't do anyone else harm.
 
I just place all 11 logbooks on their desk in a neat pile and ask when I should come back to discuss.

murphey said:
Arggggghhh! Is this what I have to look forward to? I've nver been able to keep my electronic logbook and paper logbook in sync. I wonder if my local DPE (Drew) will be kinder.

rats.
Click to expand...
 
Fearless Tower said:
At a minimum, if you ever get into professional flying and go through the interview process/logbook review, you gonna get questions about it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...


The only page of my logbook that was ever looked at by an employer was the last, that's all anyone wanted to see including airlines. As far as that goes I don't see it being a major issue and even if it comes up the answer that goes with the question is plenty sufficient.

On the other side of the coin, it's the training record documentation function in case of an investigation where this may come further into effect. I agree that a call/trip to the FSDO is likely a wise idea to get something on the record of this before it gets to an investigation. A brief note in the record will go a long ways in preventing problems down the road.
 
Henning said:
I remember when I took pride in my log book, that turned into a chore really quick though. Now I'm lucky if I remember to scratch the flights in.
Click to expand...

ditto, I use a web based thing with an app on my iphone and ipad because I got sick of totaling hours up.
 
Henning said:
The only page of my logbook that was ever looked at by an employer was the last, that's all anyone wanted to see including airlines. As far as that goes I don't see it being a major issue and even if it comes up the answer that goes with the question is plenty sufficient.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but most Part 121 interview logbook reviews are considerably more thorough than just looking at the last page.

Agree that it is not insurmountable, but can still be a pain in the ass to have to explain when he didn't do anything wrong.
 
DaleB said:
I don't want to be a jerk about this, and I certainly do NOT want to stir up trouble with the FBO that I and the rest of the flying club have to deal with permanently. But, if it's wrong, I want it fixed. If it's not, well, OK then. I just don't want to find out that hard way at some future date, when nothing can be done about it.
Click to expand...

Just explain to them that you understand that since you are working with another CFI, the old one does not want you soloing on his ticket. Perhaps he was not knowingly being a jerk, and was just trying to cover his ass.

Explain you are concerned that a DPE or the FAA will see the scratched out solo endorsements and that they will not recognize your logged solos in that aircraft as valid. Ask for a written letter from the CFI or flight school stating that the solo privileges were valid from XXX date to XXX, and when they were canceled and why (switched aircraft and instructors due to personal preference and scheduling).

Good luck and I hope you get this worked out in a satisfactory way.
 
Talk about taking your ball and going home to the extreme. .. I'd say this guy gets the douchenozzle of the year award.



This now has me thinking about utilizing the sign function on log ten pro. Luckily I do not have many people to track down to have them sign their entries. That way if anything happens to my log book , I have everything electronic also.
 
Last edited:
Matthew said:
I've never dealt with FSDO before - would the conversation be something like, "Mr FSDO: I am a student and have a logbook that a previous CFI of mine modified the other day. I have my current CFI with me. We were both present at the time the changes were made. Could you inspect my logbook and advise me on how to note the modifications so it will never become a problem?"
Click to expand...

Perfect! It really is that simple.
 
wabower said:
I just place all 11 logbooks on their desk in a neat pile and ask when I should come back to discuss.
Click to expand...
:rofl: I can't remember the last time anyone looked at my first logbook. I'm guessing it was about 30 years ago. In fact I think the only person who has seen my current logbook is the CFI who gave me some aerobatic instruction 5-6 years ago and he didn't scrutinize it beforehand.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Maybe, but most Part 121 interview logbook reviews are considerably more thorough than just looking at the last page.

Agree that it is not insurmountable, but can still be a pain in the ass to have to explain when he didn't do anything wrong.
Click to expand...


Yep, but it's spilled milk and not worth worrying about at this point unless he was planning on suing for some unprovable future monetary loss. I'd just write that topic off and concern myself with getting things recorded and square with the FAA and just call it a learning experience. Anything outside of that is just fuss and stress for no return possible; i.e. not worth the thought since there's nothing to be done about it now.

There is one thing he can try though I wouldn't, is to use Bunny's Ink Remover to clean off the fresher layer of ink. I'd use a very depleted, damp cotton swab and roll it over the inked area. I'm not sure how good of a result you could get and I would think it would open more problems with the FAA than it will cure. Perhaps I'd try a spot and if I could achieve a decent result I would ask the FSDO if it was OK to do just so you could neaten up the look of things.
 
Last edited:
Fearless Tower said:
Maybe, but most Part 121 interview logbook reviews are considerably more thorough than just looking at the last page.
Click to expand...
I don't think the OP is looking to get a Part 121 job. If he is he needs his head examined. :D
 
There's a proper way to "fire" a student. Altering his logbook isn't it. The way I've seen it done is that you send him a letter informing him that he is no longer your student, and that the endorsements you previously gave him for solo flight are no longer valid and he is not to attempt solo flight without getting an updated endorsement from another CFI. If he's a renter, put a copy of that in his "folder" at the school. If he's an owner, you might send a copy to the FSDO inspector that oversees your flight school (or call up and ask who does surveillance on GA instruction).

This ought to be covered in AC 61-65 (it's not), as it would be helpful to have a standard template for it.
 
TMetzinger said:
There's a proper way to "fire" a student. Altering his logbook isn't it. The way I've seen it done is that you send him a letter informing him that he is no longer your student, and that the endorsements you previously gave him for solo flight are no longer valid and he is not to attempt solo flight without getting an updated endorsement from another CFI. If he's a renter, put a copy of that in his "folder" at the school. If he's an owner, you might send a copy to the FSDO inspector that oversees your flight school (or call up and ask who does surveillance on GA instruction).

This ought to be covered in AC 61-65 (it's not), as it would be helpful to have a standard template for it.
Click to expand...
I agree that it should be covered. I never gave any thought into what would be involved in "unendorsing" a student. However, I think this CFI just had an impulsive, immature, fit of pique when he heard about the new CFI. I agree with those who said that the OP should discuss it with his boss and also ask the FSDO if there are any other ramifications.
 
This just sounds bizarre to me, I never had a "dedicated" CFI for either my PPL or instrument training. None of the former or subsequent CFI's have ever had issues with their respective endorsements.
 
He was justified in removing his solo endorsement.

He did it in a jerky way.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Buy a brand new logbook, sit down with the old instructor and advise him that you need to re-create all the entries along with his endorsements because he created a situation that makes it appear that your solo flights may have been done illegally since there are no longer any legible solo endorsements. If he objects, suggest that he either offer you refunds or talk to the FSDO with you.
Click to expand...
Refunds aren't the issue; legality is.
 
To the more experienced CFIs, what would be the proper way to "void" solo endorsements? I would think the ones in the log book (initial one if it's within 90 days), or the latest 90 day one) would be the ones to adjust. The endorsements on the student certificate simply state the training took place. That fact doesn't change. Remove the corresponding logbook one to recend the PIC privilages. Amend the text with some sort of expiration date?

Always learning...
 
Major jerk thing to do, not to mention having legal repercussions. Sounds like he's just being immature about the fact that you switched instructors.

It would be no different than my A&P ripping pages out of my logbook to indicate that it was not in annual when it was.
 
i usually just include in the solo limitations that i have to have personal knowledge anytime they are flying solo.
 
TMetzinger said:
There's a proper way to "fire" a student. Altering his logbook isn't it. The way I've seen it done is that you send him a letter informing him that he is no longer your student, and that the endorsements you previously gave him for solo flight are no longer valid and he is not to attempt solo flight without getting an updated endorsement from another CFI. If he's a renter, put a copy of that in his "folder" at the school. If he's an owner, you might send a copy to the FSDO inspector that oversees your flight school (or call up and ask who does surveillance on GA instruction).

This ought to be covered in AC 61-65 (it's not), as it would be helpful to have a standard template for it.
Click to expand...

I don't see that as legitimate. The FAR's give CFI's authority to make endorsements not revoke them.
 
TMetzinger said:
There's a proper way to "fire" a student. Altering his logbook isn't it. The way I've seen it done is that you send him a letter informing him that he is no longer your student, and that the endorsements you previously gave him for solo flight are no longer valid and he is not to attempt solo flight without getting an updated endorsement from another CFI. If he's a renter, put a copy of that in his "folder" at the school. If he's an owner, you might send a copy to the FSDO inspector that oversees your flight school (or call up and ask who does surveillance on GA instruction).

This ought to be covered in AC 61-65 (it's not), as it would be helpful to have a standard template for it.
Click to expand...


Personally I think the way for a CFI to cover this is by appending a new, current, expiration date on the endorsements he is still liable for. Just a single line through the old date and revised with the new and a notation "endorsements past this date are superseded by following instructor". That can be fit neatly into the locations provided for endorsements and would be sufficient to help protect them from liability created by further instructors being brought onto them.
 
Last edited:
steingar said:
A good idea would be to first confront this CFI, with the appropriate legal references in hand. I doubt he or she realized a federal crime was being committed.
Click to expand...
I'm not seeing much of an upside opportunity in that approach and lots of downside potential. I think the two most valid courses of action would be to explain the situation to the errant CFI's chief pilot and FBO manager asking them to help you repair the damage or taking it directly to the FSDO for resolution. There are at least three objectives floating around here, rectifying the document defacing (i.e. getting the medical and logbook straightened out sufficiently to avoid future problems), preventing this from happening to someone else and possibly heading off other misadventures of the "jerk" CFI, and extracting revenge for the misdeed. Unlike a few posters the OP is clearly not interested in the third objective (bravo to him), but IMO the other two are very worthwhile and should be pursued.
 
Would an inspector deem that all the solo time, in the piper, was done illegaly since the ensdorsing instructor nullified his sign-off?.
 
Henning said:
Personally I think the way for a CFI to cover this is by appending a new, current, expiration date on the endorsements he is still liable for. Just a single line through the old date and revised with the new and a notation "endorsements past this date are superseded by following instructor". That can be fit neatly into the locations provided for endorsements and would be sufficient to help protect them from liability created by further instructors being brought onto them.
Click to expand...

The CFI gives a 90 day endorsement for solo flight with whatever restrictions are deemed appropriate. When that endorsement is given it is possible the CFI may not see the student during those 90 days. The fact that the student changed instructors should have no bearing on the instructors original judgement of the students fitness for solo flight.
 
FlySince9 said:
Would an inspector deem that all the solo time, in the piper, was done illegaly since the ensdorsing instructor nullified his sign-off?.
Click to expand...

That is the risk being discussed here. While the end result will not be dire for the OP, it can potentially turn into a major SNAFU that won't be fun to deal with in a retrospective manner.
 
vintage cessna said:
The CFI gives a 90 day endorsement for solo flight with whatever restrictions are deemed appropriate. When that endorsement is given it is possible the CFI may not see the student during those 90 days. The fact that the student changed instructors should have no bearing on the instructors original judgement of the students fitness for solo flight.
Click to expand...


I don't personally think it's warranted either, some people are just paranoid and I'm trying to figure a way to accommodate that without making everything look like the dog's breakfast. Since the student is no longer flying the craft that the endorsements are good for, the matter is largely irrelevant in my view; but I am called 'highly risk tolerant'.
 
vintage cessna said:
The CFI gives a 90 day endorsement for solo flight with whatever restrictions are deemed appropriate. When that endorsement is given it is possible the CFI may not see the student during those 90 days. The fact that the student changed instructors should have no bearing on the instructors original judgement of the students fitness for solo flight.
Click to expand...

That's how I see it. You the CFI bought the student for the next three months when you endorsed him, just the same as I buy a plane for twelve for an annual.

Be sure before you put pen to paper!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top