not enough visibility?

olasek

olasek

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olasek
Do they allow you enough visibility to complete successfully this approach? How can you fly 5 miles visual from MAP to runway when minimum visibility is 2 miles? Don't you find it a bit paradoxical? Sounds to me like you can only complete this IFR approach in VMC .....Hmmm :confused:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1204/05417RY2.PDF
 
Wired. I was going to guess some approach lighting system would get you in, but I don't see it. Looks like an IAP to a contact approach to me. I don't know how they do that.
 
Ok, thanks, this makes sense. The only problem remaining is to know you got 2 sm visibility and not say 1.5, perhpas you can get it from an automated station ... or you have a nack for estimating vis.
 
olasek said:
Ok, thanks, this makes sense. The only problem remaining is to know you got 2 sm visibility and not say 1.5, perhpas you can get it from an automated station ... or you have a nack for estimating vis.
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The visibility min shown on an approach chart is flight vis, not ground vis, so for Part 91 ops, it's up to you as the pilot to determine from the cockpit in flight whether you have it or not, regardless of the reported ground vis.
 
olasek said:
Ok, thanks, this makes sense. The only problem remaining is to know you got 2 sm visibility and not say 1.5, perhpas you can get it from an automated station ... or you have a nack for estimating vis.
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That's what they rely on. All inflight vis requirements are judged by PIC.
 
Ron Levy said:
The visibility min shown on an approach chart is flight vis, not ground vis, so for Part 91 ops, it's up to you as the pilot to determine from the cockpit in flight whether you have it or not, regardless of the reported ground vis.
Click to expand...

So you get to the MAP and have 3 miles of flight visibility. Now what do you do? You can't see the runway or an approach lighting system. How do you continue that approach?
 
Ummm. Seems to me when you reach a MAP you need to see a runway or approach lights. I've never heard of continuing by just seeing the ground. That was my point on post two...that would be an IAP into a contact approach.
 
olasek said:
Ok, thanks, this makes sense. The only problem remaining is to know you got 2 sm visibility and not say 1.5, perhpas you can get it from an automated station ... or you have a nack for estimating vis.
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LOL, I just looked at the approach, in reality, the issue will never come up.
 
Captain said:
Ummm. Seems to me when you reach a MAP you need to see a runway or approach lights. I've never heard of continuing by just seeing the ground. That was my point on post two...that would be an IAP into a contact approach.
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"Fly visual" segments do not require you to have the runway environment in sight, see AIM 5-4-5(g). The AIM also states that "The depicted ground track associated with the visual segment should be flown as a “DR” course."

Seems strange to me but it's legal.
 
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Okay, you get to the MAP, have 3 miles flight Vis, DR you 017 hdg and never see the runway. How long do you DR? Til you guess the airport is behind you?
 
Captain said:
Ummm. Seems to me when you reach a MAP you need to see a runway or approach lights. I've never heard of continuing by just seeing the ground. That was my point on post two...that would be an IAP into a contact approach.
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2 sm vis in not exactly a 'soup', flying about 2 mins like that (in some GA prop), maintaining a constant heading shoud not be a big deal, running into the airport will be inevitable, this is my interpretation.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
"Fly visual" segments do not require you to have the runway environment in sight, see AIM 5-4-5(g). The AIM also states that "The depicted ground track associated with the visual segment should be flown as a “DR” course."

Seems strange to me but it's legal.
Click to expand...

Look where the runway is located and you tell me when the last time you think LIFR existed there since say the Mesazoic era lol. They write protocols that meet operational realities, amazing.
 
Also, I think I would request the RNAV (GPS) Z instead (basically the same approach with the MAP at the runway and lower LNAV minimums). Less thinking required. :D
 
Obviously it's the restricted area (R-2505) that is driving the MAP back. I've still never seen a contact approach as the end if an IAP. Yes, I realise the airport is in the middle of the desert, but I'm not aware of separate TERPS for arid locations.
 
Henning said:
Look where the runway is located and you tell me when the last time you think LIFR existed there since say the Mesazoic era lol. They write protocols that meet operational realities, amazing.
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That's not the only runway which has the "fly visual" segment. Here's another one which I guarantee gets to be LIFR. Not only that if you continue straight too long without climbing you'll hit a mountain.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1204/06403LDAD25.PDF

I understand these segments to be legal but I don't think it's the swiftest of ideas to continue if you don't see the lights or the runway.
 
KEGE is different though. You need 5 miles Vis and the MAP is only 2 from the runway with approach lights. I still can't figure out how to continue past the MAP without lights or a runway in sight.

I'll say it again, weird. Good post!
 
Captain said:
KEGE is different though. You need 5 miles Vis and the MAP is only 2 from the runway with approach lights. I still can't figure out how to continue past the MAP without lights or a runway in sight.
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Where are you seeing five miles? That's only at night when the fly visual portion does not apply anyway. In the day the LDA with GS is 3 miles and the fly visual portion is 4.3 miles.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
Also, I think I would request the RNAV (GPS) Z instead (basically the same approach with the MAP at the runway and lower LNAV minimums). Less thinking required. :D
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Yeah, better version, but only available if the restricted airspaces are not 'hot'.
 
Everskyward said:
Where are you seeing five miles? That's only at night when the fly visual portion does not apply anyway. In the day the LDA with GS is 3 miles and the fly visual portion is 4.3 miles.
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You are correct, it's 3 miles in the day. But the visual segment only applies to the LDA without GS and goes from the MAP to the runway...only 2.0 miles. It's a non-event anyway as you can't lose 1,800 feet in 2 miles anyway. You'd have to see the field or lights and descend prior to the visual segment anyway.
 
Captain said:
So you get to the MAP and have 3 miles of flight visibility. Now what do you do? You can't see the runway or an approach lighting system. How do you continue that approach?
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Just like it says in the IPH -- visually, at MDA, with reference to the ground, until you do see one of those ten things listed in 91.175.
 
Captain said:
Okay, you get to the MAP, have 3 miles flight Vis, DR you 017 hdg and never see the runway. How long do you DR? Til you guess the airport is behind you?
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You never DR -- you fly visually by reference to the ground below. Another good reason to carry sectionals while flying IFR. If upon reaching the MAP you do not have ground contact, you go missed right then and there.
 
So it is an IAP into a contact approach?
 
Well I still don't get it.

You get to the MAP and continue even though you don't see a runway or approach lights? What do you do if you fly 5 miles on your heading and 'miss' the field? Your 'Missed Approach Point' is 5 miles behind you.

I was using 'contact approach' in the sense that you don't see the field and manuver with reference to the ground...not the MDA part.
 
olasek said:
Do they allow you enough visibility to complete successfully this approach? How can you fly 5 miles visual from MAP to runway when minimum visibility is 2 miles? Don't you find it a bit paradoxical? Sounds to me like you can only complete this IFR approach in VMC .....Hmmm :confused:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1204/05417RY2.PDF
Click to expand...

As an IR student, here is how I would do that one...

2 vis is a landing minimum.
MAP is MAP, if you do not see it then go missed.
There is no magic lighting system 5 miles out.
If you see the environs then fly visually to the runway and land if you have 2 miles vis.
 
Captain said:
Well I still don't get it.

You get to the MAP and continue even though you don't see a runway or approach lights? What do you do if you fly 5 miles on your heading and 'miss' the field? Your 'Missed Approach Point' is 5 miles behind you.

I was using 'contact approach' in the sense that you don't see the field and manuver with reference to the ground...not the MDA part.
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Why don't you read what it says in the IPH section quoted in the BruceAir page linked above? Your questions are answered there.
 
Captain said:
Well I still don't get it.

You get to the MAP and continue even though you don't see a runway or approach lights?
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No. MAP is MAP.

My bad. Yes, continue.
 
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alfadog said:
As an IR student, here is how I would do that one...

2 vis is a landing minimum.
MAP is MAP, if you do not see it then go missed.
There is no magic lighting system 5 miles out.
If you see the environs then fly visually to the runway and land if you have 2 miles vis.
Click to expand...
Technically, 2 miles flight vis is the minimum to descend and operate below the MDA, not a "landing minimum." On this approach, you can continue past the MAP at or above MDA as long as you have the required vis and the ground in sight so you can navigate visually until you acquire the runway environment, at which point you can leave MDA if the other 91.175 requirements are met. Of course, there's nothing wrong with going missed at the MAP if you do not have the runway environment in sight, but it will result in missing on occasions where you could still legally (and probably safely) have completed the approach.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
"Fly visual" segments do not require you to have the runway environment in sight, see AIM 5-4-5(g). The AIM also states that "The depicted ground track associated with the visual segment should be flown as a “DR” course."

Seems strange to me but it's legal.
Click to expand...

Missed this. Then I guess I stand corrected.
 
Ron Levy said:
Technically, 2 miles flight vis is the minimum to descend and operate below the MDA, not a "landing minimum." On this approach, you can continue past the MAP at or above MDA as long as you have the required vis and the ground in sight so you can navigate visually until you acquire the runway environment, at which point you can leave MDA if the other 91.175 requirements are met. Of course, there's nothing wrong with going missed at the MAP if you do not have the runway environment in sight, but it will result in missing on occasions where you could still legally (and probably safely) have completed the approach.
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Thanks. Yes, I missed the exception for "fly visual". Interesting.
 
Ron Levy said:
You never DR -- you fly visually by reference to the ground below. Another good reason to carry sectionals while flying IFR. If upon reaching the MAP you do not have ground contact, you go missed right then and there.
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Exactly that's the big difference I noticed on this plate. The MAP was at the immediate bottom. You hit altitude and there is no level out and time to wait for something to appear as with the approaches I'm used to.
 
Just remember on approaches with a "fly visual" segment that the missed approach procedure is no longer a guaranteed way out once you depart the MAP. If you have to discontinue the approach after that, you're on your own to figure out how to get out of there without hitting anything. Things like ODP's and sectionals become invaluable at that point, and you'd better have your game plan for that figured out before you commence the approach or the ground may rise up and smite you while you're trying to work it out after you lose ground contact halfway from the MAP to the runway.
 
Ron Levy said:
Just remember on approaches with a "fly visual" segment that the missed approach procedure is no longer a guaranteed way out once you depart the MAP. If you have to discontinue the approach after that, you're on your own to figure out how to get out of there without hitting anything. Things like ODP's and sectionals become invaluable at that point, and you'd better have your game plan for that figured out before you commence the approach or the ground may rise up and smite you while you're trying to work it out after you lose ground contact halfway from the MAP to the runway.
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Good point. Missed here is a climbing right turn back to an inbound waypoint. You have better know that terrain to the right supports that past the MAP.
 
So again. Are we saying we are going to level at MDA, fly past the MAP without the field, runway, or lights in sight and just continue because we can see the ground and determine that we do have 2 miles of Vis?

That's the way I read it. It does seem strange because we now have 5 miles to fly and if that Vis goes from 2 to 1 to 0 we are in a real spot as the MAP is on the wrong side of us and the restricted area is going to get popped.
 
Sorry Ron we posted at the same time...
 
Captain said:
So again. Are we saying we are going to level at MDA, fly past the MAP without the field, runway, or lights in sight and just continue because we can see the ground and determine that we do have 2 miles of Vis?

That's the way I read it. It does seem strange because we now have 5 miles to fly and if that Vis goes from 2 to 1 to 0 we are in a real spot as the MAP is on the wrong side of us and the restricted area is going to get popped.
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Apparently so. Hey, they wanted a GPS approach, they got a GPS approach.:rofl:
 
Captain said:
So again. Are we saying we are going to level at MDA, fly past the MAP without the field, runway, or lights in sight and just continue because we can see the ground and determine that we do have 2 miles of Vis?

That's the way I read it. It does seem strange because we now have 5 miles to fly and if that Vis goes from 2 to 1 to 0 we are in a real spot as the MAP is on the wrong side of us and the restricted area is going to get popped.
Click to expand...

They have another RNAV that looks friendlier...

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1204/05417RZ2.PDF

Note that missed goes though the R-area. I have not checked the sectional but I imagine the floor is high enough to support a missed.
 
I just realised an airport I go to all the time has this too...Aspen.

Although every company I've heard of doesn't fly the approach passed the FAF. If the field isn't in sight there a Missed is executed and it's off to Rifle.
 
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