If You Were @ W00

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bigblockz8

Pre-takeoff checklist
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To the idiot in the red and black 172N @ W00 at 9:20 am, what the hell was with that 45 degree dive from downwind to final for 18? You dove about 500 down and landed with an airplane still on roll out! The second time when I was taking off you didn't make any calls and dove yet again from TPA on downwind to final. You landed behind me and somehow cut me off on downwind. I'd like to know your name,address, and pilot #.

If you read this, you ****ed off and endangered the other four planes in the pattern along with the people on the ground. No calls or anything! You sure did go around and haul a** out of Freeway when you were asked to identify yourself,so please identify yourself Two Eight Kilo!!!
 
I had a similar situation, no communicaltion, landing down wind, no concerns about the others in the pattern ( me) . We got the tail number of the plane and found out it was a CFI and a student. He was at the wrong airport and was calling out positions on the wrong freq. He called and apologized. Never did explain why the down wind landings.

Someone needed to get the tail number when he landed or did a t&g.
 
Geico266 said:
I had a similar situation, no communicaltion, landing down wind, no concerns about the others in the pattern ( me) . We got the tail number of the plane and found out it was a CFI and a student. He was at the wrong airport and was calling out positions on the wrong freq. He called and apologized. Never did explain why the down wind landings.

Someone needed to get the tail number when he landed or did a t&g.
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Thanks to the suns glare (by chance too!) the N number flashed, I got 2BK, my CFI got 28K, two others go the same two. It's BK or 8K. We all missed the first 2. This idiot was alone and reckless. Way too high and WAY too hot on his last landing. When we asked for his full N number he made that 172 into a F/A-18, pulled up,HICK maneuver, full power out of the area.

Best part was that when we asked, he turned right and slipped out, preventing those of us on his left from seeing. He knows he was wrong!
 
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I sense some anger in you, padawan....

obi-wan_kenobi.jpg
 
That was me. I was practicing nordo overhead breaks for when my RV is finished. Uncontrolled means uncontrolled. I was in control, if your aircraft control is similar to your emotional control I doubt you ever are.
 
Can't a phone call to the TRACON likely get the pilots flight plan info- W00 is in the SFRA. If a the actions were in fact dangerous and a hazard, I'm sure the FAA would love to know about it and would have little trouble getting it.
 
45deg? Or a normal 30 bank? Dive? Or engine out glide? Things can look steeper than they really are.

I guess you haven't had an instructor pull the throttle on downwind with the flaps at 20deg yet. It falls like a rock. You gotta do what you gotta do to get to the runway and that does not involve the modern airliner huge pattern with the engine at idle. Patience and learning and understanding...

You said you're a low time low experience student in the other thread about crappy instruction. What did your instructor say about the other plane? What did he teach you about that situation or did he say anything or just complain about it? There is always a lesson to learn, not just something to complain about.

Depending on the environment and what is going on, two planes on the runway use to be a semi-common thing as long as there is adequate separation. I've seen one near the end of a rollout, one touches down and one pulls out to take off and another plane on a half mile final. There is no risk at all in any of that...if done properly and everyone is working together.

Just another possibility for what you saw...
Or the guy could have truly been an idiot.
 
ClimbnSink said:
That was me. I was practicing nordo overhead breaks for when my RV is finished. Uncontrolled means uncontrolled. I was in control, if your aircraft control is similar to your emotional control I doubt you ever are.
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If your response is a joke, it's in poor taste. If your response is identifying yourself as the pilot, it's not just poor taste, it's admitting a lack of common sense and consideration for other pilots.
 
fgcason said:
45deg? Or a normal 30 bank? Dive? Or engine out glide? Things can look steeper than they really are.

I guess you haven't had an instructor pull the throttle on downwind with the flaps at 20deg yet. It falls like a rock. You gotta do what you gotta do to get to the runway and that does not involve the modern airliner huge pattern with the engine at idle. Patience and learning and understanding...

You said you're a low time low experience student in the other thread about crappy instruction. What did your instructor say about the other plane? What did he teach you about that situation or did he say anything or just complain about it? There is always a lesson to learn, not just something to complain about.

Depending on the environment and what is going on, two planes on the runway use to be a semi-common thing as long as there is adequate separation. I've seen one near the end of a rollout, one touches down and one pulls out to take off and another plane on a half mile final. There is no risk at all in any of that...if done properly and everyone is working together.

Just another possibility for what you saw...
Or the guy could have truly been an idiot.
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Frank, I agree that everything can be a learning experience but inside the SFRA and with numerous aircraft around the airport, not making appropriate calls shows a distinct lack of common sense. If the first landing had been the outcome of a valid emergency, absolutely correct. However, the aircraft in question did it again, and again without any communication. So it was nothing but grandstanding in front of people who were in no way impressed. Just the opposite, in fact.
 
Good to see that we have a hall monitor watching out for those at W00.
 
Lighten up, Francis.

Seriously, landing on a runway with another aircraft on the roll-out isn't something to go bananas over. Was reasonable spacing maintained? If so, I don't see the problem.

Same thing about the guy going around you in the pattern. When he "cut you off" did he interrupt your circuit, or did he just pass you, handle his T&G, and repeat without interfering with you? As long as he didn't impede you, what's the problem?
 
If you couldn't even see the tail number, how are you positive it's an N model?
 
Way too high and way too fast is subjective. Some people say I come in way too high but they can go pound sand.
 
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Also keep in mind at an uncontrolled field you don't need to make radio calls. It's not a requirement, it's an advisory.
 
DavidWhite said:
Also keep in mind at an uncontrolled field you don't need to make radio calls. It's not a requirement, it's an advisory.
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Correct- at the same time - with in the DC SFRA- ALL aircraft must have a flight plan, a discreet transponder code and in radio contact with Potomac approach. The only Execption to this is "in contact with Potomac app", for pattern work at a uncontrolled field (W00) where, when doing pattern work you can call potomac clearance either on the phone, or radio, if you can get them on the ground to get your squawk code. They will then give you a phone number to call when you're done in the pattern and you can remain on advisory.

And I'm sure that the catch all FAR would cite a pilot for failing to use a radio to make advisory calls, when in the traffic pattern, if it resulted in an accident and it was known (it is, I didn't hear any F-16's this morning) that a pilot had a functioning radio.
 
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bigblockz8 said:
To the idiot in the red and black 172N @ W00 at 9:20 am, what the hell was with that 45 degree dive from downwind to final for 18? You dove about 500 down and landed with an airplane still on roll out! The second time when I was taking off you didn't make any calls and dove yet again from TPA on downwind to final. You landed behind me and somehow cut me off on downwind. I'd like to know your name,address, and pilot #.
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What do you plan to do after you have the pilot's personal information? Why don't you indent the aircraft you were flying and the time?

If you read this, you ****ed off and endangered the other four planes in the pattern along with the people on the ground. No calls or anything! You sure did go around and haul a** out of Freeway when you were asked to identify yourself,so please identify yourself Two Eight Kilo!!!
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How did he "somehow" cut you off? How did he "endanger" four airplanes in the pattern?

Sometimes we get upset when our perception is someone else jeopardized our flight safety. But you sound threatening. You better bring a bat and backup if you ever meet this pilot cuz just from the sound of your words you are heading for a beat down.

I notice you posted about 20-30 minutes after this 'incident'. Next time take a deep breath, count to ten, sit on it, think about it, before you post.
 
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Mattl said:
Correct- at the same time - with in the DC SFRA- ALL aircraft must have a flight plan, a discreet transponder code and in radio contact with Potomac approach. The only Execption to this is "in contact with Potomac app", for pattern work at a uncontrolled field (W00) where, when doing pattern work you can call potomac clearance either on the phone, or radio, if you can get them on the ground to get your squawk code. They will then give you a phone number to call when you're done in the pattern and you can remain on advisory.

And I'm sure that the catch all FAR would cite a pilot for failing to use a radio to make advisory calls, when in the traffic pattern, if it resulted in an accident and it was known (it is, I didn't hear any F-16's this morning) that a pilot had a functioning radio.
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I'm going to guess that you are not based in the SFRA. It's standard practice for Potomac to release you to the local unicom anywhere from 5-9 miles out from the field. You won't be talking to them anymore. As far as making radio calls, your wrong there too. There is no requirement to make radio calls at a uncontrolled field. Yes it's a good idea but it's not required.
 
Well I got a text later in the day ( around 7pm) from another student, Jen,that was in front of us most of my lesson today and they got it. She saw the aircraft at KOXB on her X-country.

Wrong frequency is to blame. Somehow didn't realize it when he saw 5 other planes in the pattern, none of them making radio calls.... As for the model it was a M model, I was off by 2-3 years, purely based on the paint job.
 
kyleb said:
Lighten up, Francis.

Seriously, landing on a runway with another aircraft on the roll-out isn't something to go bananas over. Was reasonable spacing maintained? If so, I don't see the problem.

Same thing about the guy going around you in the pattern. When he "cut you off" did he interrupt your circuit, or did he just pass you, handle his T&G, and repeat without interfering with you? As long as he didn't impede you, what's the problem?
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The issue is that he did all of this without letting us know and I was on short final at 250AGL when this happened. He cut in front and here there is no where to go but up. Go right to avoid a collision and you hit power lines. The lines cause a dog leg final approach. By cutting in front of me after I see you on downwind and after I begin my dog legged approach, I can't see you doing your aerobatic routine because I am turning and not looking at what I JUST cleared.
 
bigblockz8 said:
I can't see you doing your aerobatic routine because I am turning and not looking at what I JUST cleared.
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If the power lines are the cause of a dogleg in the pattern then you should know that is unusual. Spend some time talking with your CFI about unusual situations. If you are so busy with avoiding the power lines that you aren't paying attention to other aircraft...that's a real problem. The onus is on your CFI. (I assume you are in training.)

If the power lines are such a concern to you that you cannot maintain awareness of other aircraft (whether they do or do not act as you expect) and you are familiar with the power lines, just imagine being in the shoes of the transient pilot.

As for this "idiot" bugging out to leave the area, plenty of times I have made a VFR approach to an airport and then reconsidered and left the area because I felt there was an increased risk due to, um, too many stumblebums in the pattern. So, just because he left to points unknown is not an indictment he "knew he was wrong".

Just wait til you get some cross country under your belt. An arrival to an unfamiliar airport...after a forced diversion or two and you are hungry and maybe are quite concerned of your fuel status. Well, I could go on...and that's the point. Your CFI should get around to introducing you to this stuff. It's real world. By and by, you too can play the "idiot".

Bottom Line: Expect the unexpected whether it be weather worse than forecast, a faulty instrument or system, or another pilot. A rule I try to keep in mind is ALL pilots are trying to kill me. Act accordingly.
 
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jtheune said:
I'm going to guess that you are not based in the SFRA. It's standard practice for Potomac to release you to the local unicom anywhere from 5-9 miles out from the field. You won't be talking to them anymore. As far as making radio calls, your wrong there too. There is no requirement to make radio calls at a uncontrolled field. Yes it's a good idea but it's not required.
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I am based in the Sfra- and you're correct - you do get released to advisory with "field in sight...." that was a transient plane, and most likely released to advisory. I was making the point that the plane wasn't nordo, and since the plane didn't stick around the pattern, it had to be in communication with TRACON after leaving.

Finally- the loose FAR 91.13 could apply in this situation - if an incident/accident happened, this would likely be cited. Careless would be a great definition of operating in radio silence at an uncontrolled field when you have a radio and are not a) 7600, b) nordo, c) in an emergency.

Is it required, no, is it careless, if you have it and don't use it at a busy field and operate as the OP explained? (I'm basing this only on the comments posted by the OP) I would say yes.
 
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Mattl said:
I am based in the Sfra- and you're correct - you do get released to advisory with "field in sight...." - however were not talking about talking to approach. I was making the point that the plane wasn't nordo, and since the plane didn't stick around the pattern, it had to be in communication with TRACON after leaving or am I incorrect?

Finally- the loose FAR 91.13 could apply in this situation - if an incident/accident happened, this would likely be cited. Careless would be a great definition of operating in radio silence at an uncontrolled field when you have a radio and are not a) 7600, b) nordo, c) in an emergency.

Is it required, no, is it careless, if you have it and don't use it at a busy field and operate as the OP explained (I'm basing this only on the comments posted by the OP)? I would say absolutely.

Still think I'm wrong?
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The question that the OP brought up was about radio work in the pattern , not radio work with Potomac approach. And yes your still wrong. Please find just one case where a pilot was cited under 91.13 for not using his radio in a area he was not required to.

PS. Did you see the post where the pilot in question was found and asked and it turned out he was on the wrong frequency?
 
Let me try to remember who has "cut in front of me". A Falcon 10 when I was on final to a non towered field. His most recent call was when he was 35 nm out. I went around as he rolled out. I coulda landed behind him but I felt it an increased risk.

A 2 ship formation of F-16s after they were cleared for a fly-by. I was on IFR plan in VMC.

A C-170 and C-185 in trail formation to a nontowered field.

A C-120 (high wing) making bounce and goes while I arrived in a Piper Warrior (low wing). He was beneath me cuz he stayed below TPA and made a tight patt and I was straight-in from 2 nm out.

A V-35 spiraled down from above me to a perfect roll out. I was about 1/2 mile final when he crossed the numbers. I did land behind him. I even shook his hand for the awesome display of airmanship.

A Piper and and a C-172 landing in sequence at a Class D. I was inside of one mile final. It was a busy afternoon. Those who did not or could not play along were sent outbound by ATC.

To be fair, I have "cut off" more than a few. The only one I feel bad about is the Bo who showed up out of nowhere. I was departing, I had cleared final. Then again. I powered up and was on the roll when the Bo said, "Are you kidding me?". I said I would sidestep to the right as soon as I break ground. I did and he said, "Cool" and made an uneventful landing. I was aligned with a clear field if needed.

If all flying was uneventful all the time I would die of boredom.
 
I'll gladly do the research on 91.13 for the topic above, forgive me, but is there a place to search enforcements based on what FAR was busted?

Yes, I did read that the pilot was on the wrong freq and I'll openly admit that I have done that before, will likely do it again and have heard commercial traffic "descending through fl230 for 180" on 123.075. It happens to all of us, professional private, or student.
 
Mattl said:
I'll gladly do the research on 91.13 for the topic above, forgive me, but is there a place to search enforcements based on what FAR was busted?

Yes, I did read that the pilot was on the wrong freq and I'll openly admit that I have done that before, will likely do it again and have heard commercial traffic "descending through fl230 for 180" on 123.075. It happens to all of us, professional private, or student.
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I would guess that the NTSB website might give you something but since you said you were sure it would apply I thought you have some evidence that it would.
 
I don't know of any publicly-accessible enforcement database, with the possible exception of the ALJ or NTSB appeals which MIGHT be public records not requiring FOIA requests. But I don't know if they're searchable anywhere.

Be interested to learn otherwise.
 
Richard said:
If the power lines are the cause of a dogleg in the pattern then you should know that is unusual. Spend some time talking with your CFI about unusual situations. If you are so busy with avoiding the power lines that you aren't paying attention to other aircraft...that's a real problem. The onus is on your CFI. (I assume you are in training.)

If the power lines are such a concern to you that you cannot maintain awareness of other aircraft (whether they do or do not act as you expect) and you are familiar with the power lines, just imagine being in the shoes of the transient pilot.
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The power lines aren't an issue. Before going over them (they cross in a weird manner) we both check for traffic behind and to the sides of us and then begin a quick turn that puts us parallel with them and then stay that way until turning the other 45 degrees onto final. Its just two 45 degree left turns. He got me on my first 45 degree turn.

In hindsight both of us should have expected it considering his stunts and him not truly being there...on the radio at least. We were wrong as well. Just annoying when you dont realize it until you see another shadow and then a plane in front of you. Makes you think "What If..."
 
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