TSA Visits Flight Schools?

[kimberlyanne546]

I always take my passengers into the hangar and even chat with the IA there on occasion in front of my passengers to ask plane questions. Not once have I ever been told this is not OK.

During my flight with my Dad I walked back into the office and the front desk said they saw I brought the plane back but didn't know where I was. I told them I walked the airport / ramp area, and the hangar (many cool things to look at, my Dad is a mechanical engineer and ex pilot). They sort of said "oh no" and told me the TSA had been there, and that it was a good thing they didn't see the three of us walking around the maintenance hangar unattended. It is kept open, so anyone can walk in, and I apologized since I never knew this was not allowed.

I asked why the TSA came by so much and found out they are there to check all the records of pilots in training (citizenship). This would explain why my log book has this "I certify" thing about my citizenship inside of it.

Is this normal or did the front desk misunderstand? Am I not allowed to go into the maintenance hangar? I've called KSTS FBO's shop and a pilot / AP there said he'd show me around, and I'm assuming he meant around the maintenance hangar.....

 

[PilotAlan]

I see STS has scheduled airline service.
99% of the time, the "TSA" BS from a desk drone is just that, BS. But without knowing where your airport's secured areas are and the security plan, I can't say. But know that the great majority of the time, it's BS.

The mechanics just may not want anyone watching their work, and threw the TSA card out to the unknowing office folks (who, not knowing any better, are repeating it). \
It used to be "insurance regulations" prohibited people in the work area. Now it's TSA. Most of the time, they just don't want anyone watching them.

 

[N801BH]

Walking on the ramp is TSA's territory to control... As a pilot you can walk to the plane you are renting. The maintenance hangar access is controlled by the FBO operating it for liability and security reasons. Do you have a TSA ramp ID ?

 

[Jeanie]

A TSA employee came by and chatted with me regarding the records of my students. She didn't go out on the ramp or even to my hangar. I think that they would not have been too worried about you being in the mechanics hangar once you explained that you have been a student and are renting their planes. But, frankly, each TSA rep. is an individual and is subject to variation in personality and pickiness.
I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Walking on the ramp is TSA's territory to control... As a pilot you can walk to the plane you are renting. The maintenance hangar access is controlled by the FBO operating it for liability and security reasons. Do you have a TSA ramp ID ?

The only ramp the TSA has "control" over, is the ramp in the SIDA/Sterile area. I don't know of too many places that the GA and airline ramps share space. In many cases, they are opposite sides of the airport.

 

[poadeleted21]

A TSA employee came by and chatted with me regarding the records of my students. She didn't go out on the ramp or even to my hangar. I think that they would not have been too worried about you being in the mechanics hangar once you explained that you have been a student and are renting their planes. But, frankly, each TSA rep. is an individual and is subject to variation in personality and pickiness.
I wouldn't sweat it.

I wish I was as "Glass Half Full" as you are about the TSA. :wink2:

 

[Everskyward]

Walking on the ramp is TSA's territory to control... As a pilot you can walk to the plane you are renting. The maintenance hangar access is controlled by the FBO operating it for liability and security reasons. Do you have a TSA ramp ID ?

I don't have any TSA ID because the airport where I am based doesn't have airlines. The only ID I have is something the company printed out on some plastic card we swipe to get in our own building. I've been on countless ramps and have never been questioned by the TSA. If there happens too be security at the door they just wave me right through when I show my company ID... which anyone could make.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Walking on the ramp is TSA's territory to control... As a pilot you can walk to the plane you are renting. The maintenance hangar access is controlled by the FBO operating it for liability and security reasons. Do you have a TSA ramp ID ?

No I do not and the way I understand it was that only a few years ago there was no fence at all and anyone could just walk up to any of the hangars (untowered airport).

I just don't want to upset my flight school and was never told before what I was doing was wrong.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Jeanie, the TSA was here??

 

[N2124v]

Question, are these TSA agents actual law enforcement officers (sworn, badged, and gun carrying) or are they like the wannabe screeners in the terminal? One of the big issues that I have is the lack of consistency between airports.

 

[Jeanie]

Hi Dave,

Yes, a nice woman named Laura came by to visit with George Vose and me regarding student records. She was helpful and pleasant. She's out of El Paso. She visited with Burt in Marfa too.

 

[N801BH]

The only ramp the TSA has "control" over, is the ramp in the SIDA/Sterile area. I don't know of too many places that the GA and airline ramps share space. In many cases, they are opposite sides of the airport.

Hmmm... Interesting..

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Hmmm... Interesting..

At least that's how I understand it to be. I guess it could be different. But what exactly is TSA going to do to a GA ramp? Tell a pilot he can't take a knife on his own plane, because he might hijack himself?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I never actually saw this TSA person. I guess they were walking around with the IA. I'm sure while they were there they went to the other flight schools but not sure if they did anything related to planes / ramps. She made it sound like it was all office stuff / paperwork checking.

 

[N801BH]

I never actually saw this TSA person. I guess they were walking around with the IA. I'm sure while they were there they went to the other flight schools but not sure if they did anything related to planes / ramps. She made it sound like it was all office stuff / paperwork checking.

Since there are no commercial flights into your airport I bet that's what the visit was about....

Towered airports with commercial service are a completely different animal... Trust me on that.

 

[nddons]

If I recall Kent had some situation in Madison re: TSA affecting the GA ramp.

Calling Kent, calling Kent. Mr. Flyingcheesehead, please pick up on the blue courtesy phone.

 

[loudbagel]

Supposedly the TSA comes once every six months or so and runs through the flight school's list of students to make sure they all comply with the rules of being a citizen of the US, or having proper paperwork as a foreigner.

So one day I walk into the office, chat with the owner. she hands me the keys and I grab my flight bag and start my walk through the crowded hangar to the small cessna. About half way through the hangar some lady comes running at me screaming for me to stop. After she backs me into the corner she demands some ID , and what Im doing in the hangar. I simply tell Her I am a pilot for the flight school that owns the hangar (she is renting space for her avionics company) At this point she freaks out and starts apologizing like crazy ... "ohhhhhh Im SOOOOOOOOO sorry Please don't tell XXXXX at your flight school she will be so mad at me" I wasn't too shaken up so I just said it's ok and went up flying.

When I got back, I asked the Flight school owner about the whole thing, turns out that the TSA fined the avionics company because they forgot to lock the front door, this door leads directly to the ramp, with a short walk you can be in the air carrier area. Anyways the night they forgot to check the door, the Head of TSA operation for our region was in town and found the unlocked door. So they raised all sorts of hell and now the lady is the "Security Nazi"

The lady who confronted me even left A sticky note on my car that read something along the lines of "sorry again, please don't say anything"

Pretty eye opening experience .

 

[nosehair]

Kimberly,
TSA and other officialdom aside, when you, as a pilot/student pilot, go inside most any pilot community hangar, most of the maintenance guys will accept or tolerate your presence. Depending on your demeanor, etc., you can be an asset or a liability.
But when you bring the whole fam damly, ...think about it. :wink2:

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Kimberly,
TSA and other officialdom aside, when you, as a pilot/student pilot, go inside most any pilot community hangar, most of the maintenance guys will accept or tolerate your presence. Depending on your demeanor, etc., you can be an asset or a liability.
But when you bring the whole fam damly, ...think about it. :wink2:

Point taken. However, the week before I brought my uncle in and he talked with the IA who seemed to be enjoying the company / interesting questions..... Oh well.

 

[N801BH]

Point taken. However, the week before I brought my uncle in and he talked with the IA who seemed to be enjoying the company / interesting questions..... Oh well.

Just ask the IA if it is ok to bring friends /guests in to visit/ chat etc

Seems simple enough....

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Quick summary, to the best of my recollection:

For airports with commercial service, the TSA requires the airport manager to create a security program, which is submitted for TSA approval or rejection.

It will include items regarding badging, fencing, and procedures around access points for FBOs and other businesses on the perimeter.

Once it is approved, the TSA then holds the airport manager, commercial businesses, pilots, and others accountable to the details of the security program, and enforces it through onerous administrative fines.

Examples:

Access control violations - Secured area, AOA, SIDA, and access control systems $7,500-$11,000

Failure to follow escort procedures $3,700-$7,499

Failure to provide SIDA access ID to TSA personnel $3,700-$7,499

Failure to carry out a requirement in the security program (general violation to be used when more specific violation is not listed) $3,700-$11,000

Failure to comply with Security Directive $7,500-$11,000


MULTIPLE VIOLATIONS: Where multiple violations arise from the same incident, inspection, or investigation, a sanction amount generally should be calculated for each violation of the regulations.
Similarly, a separate sanction amount generally should be assessed for each violation where there are continuing violations or related violations addressed in the same case​

Here's the reference: http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/enforcement_sanction_guidance_policy.pdf

This will also help explain why an airport business can suddenly seem to be cranky and enforce things they normally wouldn't care about if they know a TSA audit is occurring.

If your airport director files a security program with the TSA that states a business with fence access will escort all guests on the ramp, and that badges are required for un-escorted people inside a building or the airport, then the roving TSA inspector can whip out their little book and issue onerous fines to the FBO or mechanic. In particular, the TSA was quite concerned at one time having un-escorted people in a position where they could sabotage aircraft parts, at maintenance sites on or off the airport, and was trying to enforce security programs at mom and pop facilities (think radio repair, etc) miles from any airport.

Note that the TSA will not create the plan - that would give them accountability if there was an actual incident. The airport manager and/or business is responsible for the plan.

It might be good to familiarize yourself with the official procedures approved at your airport - guessing can get a bit expensive for all involved.

 

[N801BH]

Quick summary, to the best of my recollection:

....For airports with commercial service, Note that the TSA will not create the plan - that would give them accountability if there was an actual incident. The airport manager and/or business is responsible for the plan.......

It might be good to familiarize yourself with the official procedures approved at your airport - guessing can get a bit expensive for all involved.

Bingo..... We have the truth... And as El Paso stated... it can get VERY expensive if issues arise...

Ben.

 

[gprellwitz]

Aside from the citizenship documentation issue at training facilities, the TSA also audits flight schools to ensure that all employees who have contact with the public have taken the required suspicious activity recognition program each year.

 

[gkainz]

... even left A sticky note on my car that read something along the lines of "sorry again, please don't say anything"...

Sorta shot that one in the a$$ here, eh? Bwahahahaha!!!!!

 

[BillTIZ]

Walking on the ramp is TSA's territory to control... As a pilot you can walk to the plane you are renting. The maintenance hangar access is controlled by the FBO operating it for liability and security reasons. Do you have a TSA ramp ID ?

We don't need TSA ramp ID to walk to our airplanes! Or to the maint hanger.
If you are on an airport with Commercial air service, just stay out of their areas, normally identified by red paint.

 

[gprellwitz]

We don't need TSA ramp ID to walk to our airplanes! Or to the maint hanger.
If you are on an airport with Commercial air service, just stay out of their areas, normally identified by red paint.

Actually, now that I think of it, I don't remember the red paint coming up on any FAA exams. Is that covered in any FAA materials? How are pilots expected to know the meaning of the red paint? Is there signage visible from the ramp explaining the meaning?

 

[arealrider]

What a shame...I was the elevator mechanic at JFK in the 80's,, we had Air France and British Air, I used to just park my car in front, no problem and walk around the SST's out on the ramps...nobody ever said anything...wow how times have changed

 

[SCCutler]

This is at O69, right?

This is plain nuckin' futz. They can achieve all of their record audit functions with phone calls and mail. Again, an example of the bureaucracy creating new and needless functions in order to justify and increase themselves.

 

[gprellwitz]

What a shame...I was the elevator mechanic at JFK in the 80's,, we had Air France and British Air, I used to just park my car in front, no problem and walk around the SST's out on the ramps...nobody ever said anything...wow how times have changed

Well, I remember a couple of years ago we got a gate assignment from Air New Zealand for our 172. We parked next to a 747 and walked into the terminal from the ramp side. The attendant was a little surprised, wondering where we came from! No problems, though. The plane owner just told security that he'd be coming back out in a few minutes to his plane! Of course, this was in New Zealand, but still post-9/11 at an international terminal.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

We don't need TSA ramp ID to walk to our airplanes! Or to the maint hanger.
If you are on an airport with Commercial air service, just stay out of their areas, normally identified by red paint.

Depends on the airport. As I stated above, the approved airport plan is what the TSA paperchasers audit to.

At many airports, the badge (or an escort) is required. With recurring security training. Even in the GA area.

Here's a terrible example of the havoc an airport manager can wreak with a crappy plan:

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingn...ess-airlines+(Denver+Post:+Business:+Airlines)

I bet he thought he was a real security hero.

 

[Inverted]

In the commercial world we have to deal with SIDA areas all over the place. Most of the time GA is parking at an FBO where this would even matter.

 

[Inverted]

I always take my passengers into the hangar and even chat with the IA there on occasion in front of my passengers to ask plane questions. Not once have I ever been told this is not OK.

During my flight with my Dad I walked back into the office and the front desk said they saw I brought the plane back but didn't know where I was. I told them I walked the airport / ramp area, and the hangar (many cool things to look at, my Dad is a mechanical engineer and ex pilot). They sort of said "oh no" and told me the TSA had been there, and that it was a good thing they didn't see the three of us walking around the maintenance hangar unattended. It is kept open, so anyone can walk in, and I apologized since I never knew this was not allowed.

I asked why the TSA came by so much and found out they are there to check all the records of pilots in training (citizenship). This would explain why my log book has this "I certify" thing about my citizenship inside of it.

Is this normal or did the front desk misunderstand? Am I not allowed to go into the maintenance hangar? I've called KSTS FBO's shop and a pilot / AP there said he'd show me around, and I'm assuming he meant around the maintenance hangar.....

The TSA cannot control everything. To my knowledge they cannot force a business owner to shut down a hangar from customers. Especially at an airport where there are no necessary special security areas(as I stated a SIDA area where there are 135,121 and special use operations). At the flight school I used to teach at, customers had to walk through our hangars to get to the airplanes. They are never attended unless its dual with a CFI.

Bigger airports with secure identification areas require escorts if not specifically authorized. If you are authorized then you get a specific identification badge for each airport. A lot of our pilots will have to carry several badges since they are authorized for multiple SIDA areas.

As far as O69 goes, for some reason the TSA have had their eye on it. I don't understand why but they do. I wouldn't sweat it. If the TSA has a problem with it, then there needs to be markings to keep customers out of areas they don't want them in.

 

[kkoran]

We don't need TSA ramp ID to walk to our airplanes! Or to the maint hanger.
If you are on an airport with Commercial air service, just stay out of their areas, normally identified by red paint.

Not necessarily true. It depends on what the airport's security program says.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

The TSA cannot control everything. To my knowledge they cannot force a business owner to shut down a hangar from customers.

Check the link I included in post #30. :wink2:

TSA will attempt to control as much as they can get away with. Particularly if an incompetent, inexperienced, or overambitious airport manager allows it.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

This is at O69, right?

This is plain nuckin' futz. They can achieve all of their record audit functions with phone calls and mail. Again, an example of the bureaucracy creating new and needless functions in order to justify and increase themselves.

Yes. And I was surprised because I had enjoyed bringing people into my hangar and showing them helicopters, planes, gyro copters, V-Talils, engines (open cowlings) etc. I never touched anything and until that day I did all of this in front of the mechanics / while people were there. I had no idea I was doing something against the rules. How should I know?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

The TSA cannot control everything. To my knowledge they cannot force a business owner to shut down a hangar from customers. Especially at an airport where there are no necessary special security areas(as I stated a SIDA area where there are 135,121 and special use operations). At the flight school I used to teach at, customers had to walk through our hangars to get to the airplanes. They are never attended unless its dual with a CFI.

Bigger airports with secure identification areas require escorts if not specifically authorized. If you are authorized then you get a specific identification badge for each airport. A lot of our pilots will have to carry several badges since they are authorized for multiple SIDA areas.

As far as O69 goes, for some reason the TSA have had their eye on it. I don't understand why but they do. I wouldn't sweat it. If the TSA has a problem with it, then there needs to be markings to keep customers out of areas they don't want them in.

I know! During my training, to use the bathroom, they sent me through the hangar, with keys, unattended, and trusted me to push the button on both doors on the way back to lock them. If I didn't then the public could get into the hangar. It seemed pretty laid back.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Check the link I included in post #30. :wink2:

TSA will attempt to control as much as they can get away with. Particularly if an incompetent, inexperienced, or overambitious airport manager allows it.

My weekend airport manager hugged me on Sunday at the gas pump and warned me of gusts, gave me "wings" for my flight bag when I got my PPL, has my phone number in his phone for flour bombings, and is overall the nicest guy ever.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

My weekend airport manager hugged me on Sunday at the gas pump and warned me of gusts, gave me "wings" for my flight bag when I got my PPL, has my phone number in his phone for flour bombings, and is overall the nicest guy ever.

You've got a good one. Make sure he doesn't go away!

 

[kimberlyanne546]

You've got a good one. Make sure he doesn't go away!

He is only there on weekends. He leases his plane to the other flight school while he works on his PPL slowly. He always gives me crap "why haven't we flown the Bay Tour" but I always remind him I can't afford the flight. One day, we will fly together and he is excited to see the Bravo for himself! He is the happiest guy I've ever met. Knows everyone by name, always driving around the runway helping out, wonderful man.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, it's normal for TSA to visit flight schools.
Yes, they do have an statutory interest in evaluating procedures and precautions to prevent both sabotage of aircraft in the hangar as well as unauthorized access to the flight line though the hangar. This is a bigger issue at airports with air carrier traffic, but is still technically an issue elsewhere.
Yes, some TSA personnel are sworn Federal LEO's with badges, guns, handcuffs, and the power of arrest. However, most flight school visits are by non-LEO administrative inspectors checking records of compliance with the Alien Flight Student Program rules (citizenship checks for all and TSA approval documentation for noncitizens) and the required annual security awareness training for all flight school personnel.