Worst Lesson So Far

[bigblockz8]

Worst Lesson Yet!

Today I had a lesson after going four months without flying. The lesson was in X-wind take-offs/landings.

Wind: 13kts (reported) at 090, gusts to "20"

Runway: 36, DIRECT X-wind as luck would have it

The lesson started off on a positive note. I arrived early and to my amazement, the plane was fuel to the top, wasn't even tied down, was ready to go. I did my preflight, tied it down (it was a bit windy), and filed a fp. Taxiing out, the Cessna Skycatcher beat us to the run-up area. We took off, I got myself back into the game and my CFI did the landing.

Landing #2: I took off, Skycatcher behind us. I had to crab thanks to the wind which was picking up. Came in to land, wind blew us back too far, we ended up slowing to about residential road speed doing "65kts" on short final. I added power to try for about 80kts since the wind was about 20-30 and because it was sudden. My CFI took the power out, saying we don't add power. (This will be useful background for landing 6)

Landing #3: Fine. On roundout I flared too shallow, bit of a firm landing.

#4: The Skycatcher is now in front of us thanks to it's short touchdown roll, about 2 exits sooner than ours with good braking. While on downwind, passing it, I turn base. On base I see the 162 going down the runway on one wheel! Our turn. I line up and crab a bit. We hit a downdraft, I add power. Above the numbers the wind unleashes fury! I correct. I then flare too high, we float, I add power. Touchdown is okay.

#5 This time the Skycatcher lands while we wait to takeoff. It's seeming to take the winds fine. Downwind tire must not feel loved though. We takeoff, all is fine. On final, we bounce up and down. Above the numbers I am reminded to slowly arrest our descent. Then I hear "PULL!" Too late. We test the 172's gear strength. The upwind wing then goes up (just a bit, but a bit is a lot) and we both haul over to the left to keep it down. Perfect, I almost ground looped us! IN A HIGH WING!

Landing #6: This time the 162 is waiting for us. We enter final, a bit low and slow. I add power, problem fixed for now. On short final the wind just does its worse. Airspeed briefly jumps to 90 (from 70) and goes down to 80. We are crabbed and I am struggling to line up. I am instructed to pull power. We are now 15ft above the runway and I start to begin the leveling of the crab. I have no clue what happened next. I just remember a stall horn's blaring, a hard plop, a sharp right turning moment on the right wheel, me adding power and left rudder, leveling wings to try to go around in one piece. We bounced about 20ft into the air and I have added full power now. I am over ruled, my CFI pulls the power and tells me to land. With his help, "I" land.

Exiting the runway I am very upset. I kept making the same mistakes over and over. I ended up getting a bit emotional (Now I'm just missing the blood portion of blood,sweat,tears) and he calls it a day. I realize that it's normal and expected but it upsets my personal expectations. I study daily, know the plane intimately, and put almost all of the free time that I have into aviation. I expect to do better than nearly totaling an aircraft and killing it's two occupants in the process.

What happened?
1.Airspeed was just that, speed of the air.
2. Wind died down
3. We stalled and hit the ground in a crab, down wind wheel first
4. I corrected the direction and added power in level flight
5. CFI said we're landing, terminate go-around
6. Power off, upwind wheel down, we're fine

Analyzing what occurred, I was at fault. I didn't add enough power KNOWING that the wind was at least 10-15kts. I just don't get why, knowing what the wind is like, why we don't carry a bit more speed in. I also don't get how a wind can stay steady at a certain speed for so long.
I also learned how ground loops occur and that enough of hearing what to do can have it's effects on recovery.

Has anyone else ever gotten a bit too emotional and caught up during a lesson? I don't know why but it's just frustrating and I feel like a failure thanks to today's "lesson."

P.S. The Skycatcher's pilot and I were talking in the FBO. He said that when we came in, he felt a good gust on his controls. He did congratulate me on the bounce recovery which kind of makes me feel better.

Note: A Cessna 172 is stronger than it looks!

Here's the Skycatcher that did 14 landings right in front of us.

 

[Jeanie]

Have you practiced any crosswind landings before today? Maybe 90 degrees off the nos is a bit unreasonable at your stage of training? Is there an airport nearby with better alignment without the wind that you could have flown to to practice?

You are naturally frustrated with today, if I may, I'd like to suggest that you try to let a lot of it go as just an off day and not carry it over into future lessons. Kind of like a bad dream and now you are awake and can fly differently next time.

Bad days have happened to all of us to one degree or another.

 

[Ted]

Bad days have happened to all of us to one degree or another.

+1. Don't sweat it. 13G20 crosswind landings in a 172 for a student pilot (after 4 months without flying, no less) I'd expect to be a challenge.

Yes, you should be able to handle that... eventually. The fact that today you had issues is not surprising.

 

[poadeleted21]

Come in a little hot, landings in X-Wind won't always (or rarely) be greasers. As a student, I found it "easier" to just go ahead and get in the slip on final and ride it all the way down instead of the crab then kick method. I want to plant it ASAP too, Wallowing around in ground effect with a wind kicking me isn't my cup of tea, so my X-Wind landings tend to be "stiff" Don't get emotional over it, (I know, right?) X-Wind landings are tough to learn because they're never the same and you only get so many practice runs at it. I've barked the tires slidding in sideways a time or five.

 

[bigblockz8]

Have you practiced any crosswind landings before today? Maybe 90 degrees off the nos is a bit unreasonable at your stage of training? Is there an airport nearby with better alignment without the wind that you could have flown to to practice?

You are naturally frustrated with today, if I may, I'd like to suggest that you try to let a lot of it go as just an off day and not carry it over into future lessons. Kind of like a bad dream and now you are awake and can fly differently next time.

Bad days have happened to all of us to one degree or another.

This was actually my second attempt at independent, seldom assisted landings period. The last time was two landings on an amazing zero wind approach. I guess it is to be expected. This was the first time with X-winds and had I not have studied previously, I would not have had a clue as to what in the world we were doing. The closest airport would have been BWI or a virtually abandoned field that neither of us have been to.

It felt like a bad dream. I fully comprehend why and how a pilot got stuck in the pattern for an hour trying to land in 18kt winds before. It's rather hard to correct for a force that isn't tangible and that is constantly variable.

 

[Ted]

Don't underestimate the impact of you not having flown for 4 months. As still a student, out of practice, and doing something that you haven't done before, it's expected.

With practice, 13G20 kt winds should be no sweat for you, and you should get it on the ground first time no problem. Trust me, it's perfectly doable. I've landed the 310 at a 2700 ft strip (short field, so I was coming in slow) with 20G35 direct crosswinds. Not necessarily a greaser (although that landing was surprisingly smooth), but if someone's stuck in the pattern for hours with the winds you had today, they should find a different airport and, after they get back on the ground, get some instruction on crosswind landings.

 

[Jeanie]

Ok. Here's a thought or two. Don't do crosswind landings till you are comfortable with landing in up to say 15kt winds within 20 deg.. It was unfair in my opinion for the CFI to put you in that situation. I realize that being out of it for 4 mos. there may have some pressure to fly no matter what but it might have been better to practice some maneuvers and then let the CFI land and go home less frustrated.
Trust me it gets easier over time. Don't beat yourself up at all about any of it.

Do you have any open land where you are? Can you practice flying down a long straight road or fence line or pipeline holding the plane centered with ailerons and straight with rudder?

Also, ask the CFI to trade out - he does rudder and you do ailerons then vice versa. There is A LOT going on in crosswinds and you need to get to where you can see the inputs to make in the very fluid environment that it is.

 

[DavidWhite]

^^ what those folks said. I've got a few hours in skyhawks, and I have never been in a situation that required more than 65kts. The faster you come in the longer you will float, and the more you are subject to the wind blowing you off centerline. I would never ever ever come in at 80 knots unless there is some kind of monster wind shear.

 

[Old Geek]

I agree with Jeanie. This would have been a perfect day for ground reference maneuvers.

 

[Ted]

^^ what those folks said. I've got a few hours in skyhawks, and I have never been in a situation that required more than 65kts. The faster you come in the longer you will float, and the more you are subject to the wind blowing you off centerline. I would never ever ever come in at 80 knots unless there is some kind of monster wind shear.

Actually, the nice thing with wind shear in a Skyhawk is that it weighs so little, the wind tends to just blow it around. In an Archer I've seen wind shear 1/2 to 1/3 of what jets are reporting. This was going into Manchester, NH, with plenty of jets before and after me.

Of course, Manchester also has very long runways for a Skyhawk.

 

[DavidWhite]

I can't say I have ever had wind sheer on landing to where I was worried about stalling. In Nebraska we had a gs of 150 on downwind and the wind was calm at the surface, but I never noticed any rapid airspeed drops while I was descending.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

A few things:

1) Don't expect your first lesson after 4 months of not flying to be stellar - And remember today's lesson someday after you've got your ticket if you've gone four months without flying. You've got to keep the skills up to stay safe on your own! But I question the judgement of your CFI having you do landings in those conditions after a 4-month layoff, as it's unlikely to be a good learning experience.

2) It sounds like you need a quick review as to why you don't want extra speed on final. Remember that the airplane doesn't know what the ground is doing, only what the air is doing. If you try to land at 80 knots, one of two things is going to happen:
a) If you successfully keep the plane off the ground long enough, you'll float and float and float as you bleed off speed and you'll have to be fighting those crosswinds in the flare for a LONG time, leading to increased chances of b)...
b) If you don't keep the plane from touching the ground for long enough, you'll hit the nosewheel first, which is likely to at the very least cause you to porpoise, possibly cause damage, and maybe even a prop strike.

Angle of attack is important here - The faster you are, the lower your angle of attack will be to maintain level flight (or something very close to it, as in the flare to land). You have to be slow enough, and with your angle of attack high enough, to ensure that your mains touch the ground first, and that you don't have so much excess energy that you bounce back into the air. You'll want to be touching down at very close to your stall speed, which is not going to change with wind speed. So, if you come in faster, you'll simply have to spend more time slowing down.

So, since you want to keep the same *airspeed* on final approach, if you have a strong headwind your *groundspeed* will be lower and your approach steeper at your desired airspeed. To counteract that, you want to add a little power *but not speed up*. If your plane is trimmed properly, when you add a bit of power you'll stay at the same airspeed but your nose will pitch up, and you'll still be at the same airspeed and you'll also be able to fly your desired glidepath.

If you have a strong crosswind on final - 90 degrees off the runway in your case - even though you technically don't have a headwind component, when you correct for the crosswind your glidepath will be steeper, though for different reasons depending on technique: If you're crabbing, you'll be pointing the nose into the wind somewhat and thus you will have a headwind component after all. If you're slipping, you'll be causing additional drag as well as losing a bit of your vertical lift component. Both have the effect of steepening your glidepath, so you'll need a bit more power, but NOT more airspeed, in either case.

I hope this explanation makes sense and helps you - Please reply or PM if you need any clarification!

Also, keep your head up - Everyone has frustrating days while training. Think about it, learn as much as you can from it, and you'll do better next time. I hope your next time comes in much less than four months.

 

[gismo]

Lots of good advice in this thread, especially the stuff about using the same target airspeed with or without a crosswind. It is recommended that you add half the forward component of the gust factor (which will be near zero with a gusty 90° crosswind) but never more than 5 Kt but the steady component of the wind (e.g. the 13 in 13G20) should never be a reason to increase your airspeed.

But IMO the question you should be asking is "Why does my CFI hate me?". The only thing I'd expect a student at your level to learn when tasked with landing a 172 with 13G20 winds 90° to the runway is that such conditions are more than you're ready to handle. What's next on his syllabus, landing with one hand tied behind your back and both eyes covered?

 

[Jaybird180]

Looks like things have changed. When I trained there, 13G20 was prohibited for lessons by policy for students.

Q for the student: What is the maximum demonstrated crosswind capability of the Cessna 172?

 

[bigblockz8]

Don't underestimate the impact of you not having flown for 4 months. As still a student, out of practice, and doing something that you haven't done before, it's expected.

With practice, 13G20 kt winds should be no sweat for you, and you should get it on the ground first time no problem. Trust me, it's perfectly doable. I've landed the 310 at a 2700 ft strip (short field, so I was coming in slow) with 20G35 direct crosswinds. Not necessarily a greaser (although that landing was surprisingly smooth), but if someone's stuck in the pattern for hours with the winds you had today, they should find a different airport and, after they get back on the ground, get some instruction on crosswind landings.

The guy that got stuck was last winter in his brand new SR22. That day was when the FBO let my CFI fly in 28kt winds (at takeoff for us, but down the centerline specially for us) at about 10 degrees to the left, gusts reported as high as 40. We landed (without a problem) when the gusts got out of hand. About 5 mins later we hear the guy in the Cirrus getting currency and spending currency (the literal kind) in his little Cirrus.

Interesting note is that on the ground wind was reported at the reported 18-26kts. He said that he was getting a good 20-30.

 

[bigblockz8]

Looks like things have changed. When I trained there, 13G20 was prohibited for lessons by policy for students.

Q for the student: What is the maximum demonstrated crosswind capability of the Cessna 172?

I honestly had no clue that they had a policy like that! Maybe the head CFI is slacking, we've done some rather stupid stuff. Best one was my $20 flight of .1 hrs. Too much wind that day, no flying for me. As for the demonstrated X-wind I don't know the official number but I do know that it's around 30kts at about 40 degrees with a great pilot. Flew with Dan that time.


**********************************************************
One thing that I forgot about is the fact that the FBO was empty. The planes were all fueled up, plugged in, and the folks before us did a touch and go and then called it a lesson.

The Skycatcher, (OF ALL AIRCRAFT!) did just fine in the wind. The way that it flew, I would have expected a Cessna Factory Test Pilot to have been flying. Watching it taxi was interesting to note. The wind actually gave it a bit of a "pee-pee" dance thing. It was shaking left to right, up and down, and looked as if it had had one too many drinks.

I see how judgement is a large factor in accidents.

 

[DavidWhite]

Demonstrated crosswind component should be about 15kts.......key word demonstrated. That doesn't mean it wont land with a higher xwind component than that - it will.

 

[Ted]

The guy that got stuck was last winter in his brand new SR22.

Why does that not surprise me...

That day was when the FBO let my CFI fly in 28kt winds (at takeoff for us, but down the centerline specially for us) at about 10 degrees to the left, gusts reported as high as 40. We landed (without a problem) when the gusts got out of hand. About 5 mins later we hear the guy in the Cirrus getting currency and spending currency (the literal kind) in his little Cirrus.

Gusts to 40 are a lot more than 28 but, if not far off the nose, should still be no problem, even in a Cirrus. I've landed in gusts over 40 before.

Interesting note is that on the ground wind was reported at the reported 18-26kts. He said that he was getting a good 20-30.

The Cirrus pilot? He probably felt like his world was coming to an end.

 

[Morne]

@OP - what are the runway dimensions?

 

[Jaybird180]

Maybe the head CFI is slacking, we've done some rather stupid stuff. Best one was my $20 flight of .1 hrs. Too much wind that day, no flying for me. As for the demonstrated X-wind .....I don't know the official number...

There have been some staff changes since I got my certificate. The Head Honcho is a great guy and CFI's are expected to police themselves.

Whenever there is a specification that you should know cold, either know it cold or LOOK IT UP. It will serve you in the long run. The answer can be found in the POH.

@OP - what are the runway dimensions?

2420 x 40

 

[Jaybird180]

Looks like things have changed. When I trained there, 13G20 was prohibited for lessons by policy for students.

Q for the student: What is the maximum demonstrated crosswind capability of the Cessna 172?

To clarify: there is no restriction on these operations when flying with a CFI, however the ops manual lists many student solo restrictions that you and the CFI must adhere to. Since 13G20 is outside the student solo allowance, I recommend you hold this type of training until after you get your ticket. Do not allow someone else to waste those precious training AMUs.

 

[N2124v]

Bigblock, take a deep breath. You had a rough lesson, but I bet you learned something. After 4 months off I would expect the lesson to go not so well. Now, was crosswind landings a poor lesson choice, probably, but how often do you get winds like that. If it is rare, then your CFI was taking advantage of the weather.

As far as bending aluminum, I would guess we have all come really close to it, or actually done it. Talk to your CFI and let him know that you are really frustrated with this lesson.

 

[gprellwitz]

The other thing that I find disturbing is that the instructor wasn't teaching to do a go-around in the event of a questionable approach. 2420 is fairly short to be attempting corrections if the initial approach leaves doubt in the mind. Your first reaction to a problematic landing should NOT be to salvage it!

 

[Morne]

2420 x 40

That's almost exactly the same size runway as I learned on (2410 x 37).

Our instructors took us to nearby airports that had 75 or 100 foot width runways to teach crosswind landing techniques. Especially on a gusty day.

It's not that you can't land on that runway with that crosswind component, you can, just that it's a crumby place to learn.

 

[bigblockz8]

That's almost exactly the same size runway as I learned on (2410 x 37).

Our instructors took us to nearby airports that had 75 or 100 foot width runways to teach crosswind landing techniques. Especially on a gusty day.

It's not that you can't land on that runway with that crosswind component, you can, just that it's a crumby place to learn.

I would have loved to do so yesterday. I had difficulty not only getting to the runway, but then trying to correct and get it down by the first exit. Last landing left a brake smell. We used the elevator to assist with braking and I put the flaps up as taught. Still came a bit too close for comfort to the end of the runway.

I have landed two different gliders (with a CFI-G telling me to treat it like a 172, but keep it a bit high) without any problems on a 3600x75 runway. I like the wider runways. I started my training with 5220x100, sometimes I do miss it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Looks like things have changed. When I trained there, 13G20 was prohibited for lessons by policy for students.

Q for the student: What is the maximum demonstrated crosswind capability of the Cessna 172?

Question for you, Jaybird: Who cares? It is not a limitation. I believe that they may need to demonstrate it (and publish that demonstrated number) for certification purposes, but they do not need to publish what the actual maximum crosswind limitation is (ie, where you no longer have enough control authority to counteract it during landing). I've landed both 172's and 182's in crosswinds gusting to over 30 knots and haven't run out of rudder yet.

That certainly doesn't mean it's smart or productive for a student pilot to do such things - But the "maximum demonstrated crosswind capability" is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I see how judgement is a large factor in accidents.

And that's a lesson well worth learning...

 

[Red Air Rambo]

+1. Don't sweat it. 13G20 crosswind landings in a 172 for a student pilot (after 4 months without flying, no less) I'd expect to be a challenge.

Yes, you should be able to handle that... eventually. The fact that today you had issues is not surprising.

+1 you will have good days and bad...just don't give up or stop learning.

 

[Jaybird180]

Question for you, Jaybird: Who cares? It is not a limitation. I believe that they may need to demonstrate it (and publish that demonstrated number) for certification purposes, but they do not need to publish what the actual maximum crosswind limitation is (ie, where you no longer have enough control authority to counteract it during landing). I've landed both 172's and 182's in crosswinds gusting to over 30 knots and haven't run out of rudder yet.

That certainly doesn't mean it's smart or productive for a student pilot to do such things - But the "maximum demonstrated crosswind capability" is pretty much irrelevant.

Congratulations!

Question for you: is that the lesson you want to teach the 16 yo student pilot with minimal pilot training funds?

 

[rottydaddy]

Re: Worst Lesson Yet!

What happened?
1.Airspeed was just that, speed of the air.

Nope.

It's possible you didn't mean that literally, but just in case...

I know gusts can mess with your energy management when trying to land in such conditions (been there, done that, got the sweaty T-shirt), but you will do better remembering that indicated airspeed is the speed at which the airplane is moving through the air, regardless of that air's speed relative to the surface... or its direction. At rest, on the ground, yes, the AI shows wind speed (or at least the headwind component). Once the plane starts moving, even just rolling, this is no longer true. IAS is a reading of volume of air per second entering the pitot tube, period.

Let's say you're flying into air that is moving opposite the way you're pointed, at a speed, relative to the ground, that exceeds your airplane's maximum speed in level flight. You will notice you are now going backwards along your intended path... but only relative to the ground. The IAS does not drop to zero in this case, and the plane keeps flying... forwards. In fact, if this condition came about suddenly, as you flew into a region of stronger wind, you might see a small increase in IAS, but it would be temporary, as the plane passed from the area of low-speed or calm wind into the big headwind. If power and trim remain constant, you should see the same IAS after the gust event as you did before.

Same applies when the wind gets behind you, or when it's blowing across the path of flight (or when a gust blows right across the pitot tube opening): you may see a brief drop in IAS, but it will be temporary.
It's not like the other effects of turbulence (heading and bank angle changes)... those require some input from you to correct them. Unless turbulence upsets the plane pitch-wise, you needn't worry about your airspeed. Start chasing the ASI needle with pitch and power changes when you're trying to land, and you will do poorly.

This is why, as you realized in hindsight, that a little extra airspeed is useful when the wind is gusting over the runway. It gives you some padding, and improves directional control if said gusty wind is a crosswind.
Another useful tool is to trust your initial "over the fence" speed, the one you know works well, plus, say, half the known or estimated gust speed, and don't worry too much about the variations in ground speed (ground speed most definitely changes in direct proportion to the wind!!). You definitely don't want to be fretting over little variations in the IAS, if you know you haven't changed how the airplane is set up.

It's frustrating, at first, getting a grip on gusty xwind landings, but in the end, other than maybe a little extra speed, you're doing the same thing as in calm air or light winds: pitch and power for the target airspeed and sink speed, aileron for drift, rudder for alignment, note the runway remaining (especially if the wind might possibly get behind you). The actual motions are a little different- more of this, less of that- but it just takes practice.

Now, I realize that wind doesn't just blow horizontally- there are eddies and swirls, even waves...and thermals can give you fits when they pop up or move onto the runway- but again, this is not an airspeed thing. In those cases, like when you are doing great, then you suddenly rise up or sink down, it's a vertical speed thing. You can have the whole airspeed and directional thing down pat in gusty xwinds, and still get screwed up by air tumbling over nearby obstacles or what-have-you. Dealing well with stuff like that also just takes practice, and exposure to these conditions teaches you to trust what you know about that airplane, and to not put too much trust in the sock, the automated wind info, or what any other pilot in the area tells you. You really won't know exactly what you're dealing with until you are in it, and the wind across one part of the runway may be quite different across another part... remember that, and you'll do better with "uncooperative" winds.

 

[Jaybird180]

Landing on 36 ususally is accompanied by said above downdrafts over the trees in windy conditions, then it smooths just beyond them to kick up again right before the threshold.

 

[John Baker]

I had a heck of a time learning to land as I have only one eye, judging height can be problematic. I read everything I could, I watched videos endlessly, I talked to any pilot who would listen.

I asked a 95 year old retired airline pilot how to land an airplane. He looked at me like I was a raving lunatic who had an IQ of about ten, and said (I'll never forget this) " You just land the damn airplane."

A Frenchman CFI finally took the time to read up on mono vision pilots and taught me how to land using perspective rather than trying to judge height above the runway.

It works like this; keep bringing her down until the top of your nose cowling is below the far end of the runway line. Start your flare and hold the nose about one fingers width below the end of the runway line. You will have to slowly pull back on the yoke to hold it at that point. If you do it right, you will grease it in almost every time.

It took him all of one lesson to teach me how to land an airplane, after close to a dozen previous CFIs had failed miserably.

Once you have mastered this technique, crosswinds, gusting winds, wind shear, whatever, will be a piece of cake. Why? Because landing the airplane is easy, it will be automatic, you wont even think about it. That leaves you free to think and react correctly to all the other variables of landing without worrying about when to flare or how to touch down.

(Crab it in, then on short final, if you can not line up with the centerline, your crosswind component is too strong for your airplane, you gotta go around. Try again or divert to an airport that has more favorable winds.)

You will find yourself doing exactly what that old pilot had told me, you will simply be landing the damn airplane.

Try it, it works.

John

 

[Bob Bement]

If you lay off for three or four months and you are learning it would be tough for anyone to nail a cross wind like that. You just need to practice,praactice, practice. You say you need a longer and wider runway. I like this kind:


http://youtu.be/VqZ1i41OBDY

 

[bigblockz8]

Thanks for all of the great replies so far! I've taken notes down and will study and put them to use in a couple days. I have noticed that with more time and practice that little things become automatic. In the pattern I didn't even have to try to maintain 1000ft. I didn't have to look at the attitude indicator for bank guidance, it's becoming second nature. I do verify these things of course but it's exciting to get some of the basics down. I have two lessons in the next seven days and both will be t/o's and landings.

This past lesson I was a bit upset about forgetting my camera mount. It would have been very helpful to watch myself get into an overload situation. I will find the mount and take it for sure, I'll post links on this thread.

 

[bigblockz8]

Re: Worst Lesson Yet!

Nope.

It's possible you didn't mean that literally, but just in case...

I know gusts can mess with your energy management when trying to land in such conditions (been there, done that, got the sweaty T-shirt), but you will do better remembering that indicated airspeed is the speed at which the airplane is moving through the air, regardless of that air's speed relative to the surface... or its direction. At rest, on the ground, yes, the AI shows wind speed (or at least the headwind component). Once the plane starts moving, even just rolling, this is no longer true. IAS is a reading of volume of air per second entering the pitot tube, period.

Let's say you're flying into air that is moving opposite the way you're pointed, at a speed, relative to the ground, that exceeds your airplane's maximum speed in level flight. You will notice you are now going backwards along your intended path... but only relative to the ground. The IAS does not drop to zero in this case, and the plane keeps flying... forwards. In fact, if this condition came about suddenly, as you flew into a region of stronger wind, you might see a small increase in IAS, but it would be temporary, as the plane passed from the area of low-speed or calm wind into the big headwind. If power and trim remain constant, you should see the same IAS after the gust event as you did before.

Same applies when the wind gets behind you, or when it's blowing across the path of flight (or when a gust blows right across the pitot tube opening): you may see a brief drop in IAS, but it will be temporary.
It's not like the other effects of turbulence (heading and bank angle changes)... those require some input from you to correct them. Unless turbulence upsets the plane pitch-wise, you needn't worry about your airspeed. Start chasing the ASI needle with pitch and power changes when you're trying to land, and you will do poorly.

This is why, as you realized in hindsight, that a little extra airspeed is useful when the wind is gusting over the runway. It gives you some padding, and improves directional control if said gusty wind is a crosswind.
Another useful tool is to trust your initial "over the fence" speed, the one you know works well, plus, say, half the known or estimated gust speed, and don't worry too much about the variations in ground speed (ground speed most definitely changes in direct proportion to the wind!!). You definitely don't want to be fretting over little variations in the IAS, if you know you haven't changed how the airplane is set up.

It's frustrating, at first, getting a grip on gusty xwind landings, but in the end, other than maybe a little extra speed, you're doing the same thing as in calm air or light winds: pitch and power for the target airspeed and sink speed, aileron for drift, rudder for alignment, note the runway remaining (especially if the wind might possibly get behind you). The actual motions are a little different- more of this, less of that- but it just takes practice.

Now, I realize that wind doesn't just blow horizontally- there are eddies and swirls, even waves...and thermals can give you fits when they pop up or move onto the runway- but again, this is not an airspeed thing. In those cases, like when you are doing great, then you suddenly rise up or sink down, it's a vertical speed thing. You can have the whole airspeed and directional thing down pat in gusty xwinds, and still get screwed up by air tumbling over nearby obstacles or what-have-you. Dealing well with stuff like that also just takes practice, and exposure to these conditions teaches you to trust what you know about that airplane, and to not put too much trust in the sock, the automated wind info, or what any other pilot in the area tells you. You really won't know exactly what you're dealing with until you are in it, and the wind across one part of the runway may be quite different across another part... remember that, and you'll do better with "uncooperative" winds.

I honestly hate the wind, it confuses me. I have wondered the following things before ever flying (I've been doing MS flight sim since 6) and some while.

• If my GS is 80, but my AS is 140, Vne is 130, aren't I exceeding the Vne since its the airspeed that matters, not ground? I asked this in the FBO while waiting for my CFI to show, and by the time he got there, the other CFIs (some gold seal, the chief was there too) were arguing about the matter.
• How is wind in the air steady? As a land lover, I never feel a steady, constant speed breeze, it comes and goes. How exactly do you plot wind drift or crab for a certain wind speed when it varies? This also is what confused me on these landings as I anticipated the wind virtually vanishing while we went over trees.
• If the wind is a X-wind at say 10 degrees off the nose and I slip the nose 10 degrees into the wind,don't I get a bit more lift and airspeed?

I have just recently (about 6 months ago?) memorized what exactly upwind means. It took an unfortunate incident on a windy day. I was out in a rural area, didn't see a bush or tree for a good half mile. I finally got it, upwind means into the wind! (I then realized why they're called upwind,X-wind, downwind legs) Wind just isn't my favorite thing to learn.

 

[rottydaddy]

Re: Worst Lesson Yet!

• If my GS is 80, but my AS is 140, Vne is 130, aren't I exceeding the Vne since its the airspeed that matters, not ground? I asked this in the FBO while waiting for my CFI to show, and by the time he got there, the other CFIs (some gold seal, the chief was there too) were arguing about the matter.

It worries me a little that instructors were debating this, as it is Day 1 stuff. The airspeed indicator gets its information from the pitot tube... it has no way of detecting ground speed. All it can tell you is approximately what the speed is of the air flowing past the airplane (in other words, the speed at which the plane is moving through the air)... NOT its speed relative to the surface. Never-exceed speed is all about keeping the airplane, especially its movable control surfaces, safe from aerodynamic forces that might cause loss of control or damage. There's no mystery there... it has nothing at all to do with ground speed. On the other end of the spectrum, you could be hanging on the edge of a stall with a wind coming from behind you, giving you a ground speed that exceeds the number for indicated Vne, right? Since when does the airplane feel and sound like it's about to stall when it's anywhere near the speed you'd normally see in a dive? If you picture those two examples, you will see why there's nothing to be confused about.

• How is wind in the air steady? As a land lover, I never feel a steady, constant speed breeze, it comes and goes. How exactly do you plot wind drift or crab for a certain wind speed when it varies? This also is what confused me on these landings as I anticipated the wind virtually vanishing while we went over trees.

It isn't steady, although it's arguably steady more often at altitudes where there's no terrain nearby to disturb it. When it comes to landing approaches, you just "gotta do what you gotta do" to control drift, etc. You can't try to beat every fluctuation, but you have to pay attention and assume nothing.

• If the wind is a X-wind at say 10 degrees off the nose and I slip the nose 10 degrees into the wind,don't I get a bit more lift and airspeed?

• No. Except for gusts, the wind is not blowing on the airplane, even when it changes heading. The airplane is moving through air that is itself moving. "Wind" is just the effect of this air moving past something that is in contact with the surface. Pilots talk about crosswinds, headwinds and tailwinds, but unless some part of that plane is touching the surface, the plane is not really experiencing "wind". If you're indicating 70 kts on final, and find you need to crab ( point the nose into the wind with aileron and rudder neutral) in order to track the runway centerline, you will still see 70 kts indicated, and your rate of descent will remain the same. Your ground speed will change slightly, but not your airspeed.

...and don't confuse "slip" (flying with rudder and aileron uncoordinated) with "crab" (flying with coordinated controls)... they are two different things, even though either method can be used to deal with a crosswind when landing. To find out more about that, you might ask one of the CFIs who was certain that a ground speed above the Vne number was irrelevant, as long as the indicated airspeed was within safe limits. :wink2:

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Re: Worst Lesson Yet!

To find out more about that, you might ask one of the CFIs who was certain that a ground speed above the Vne number was irrelevant, as long as the indicated airspeed was within safe limits. :wink2:

heh heh heh

Ground speed is relevent only when related to two things:

When will we get there (and do I have enough gas). And,
Which end of the runway do I use - taking off or landing downwind requres more ground speed to get the necessary air speed which increases the runway requirements.
​

As you found out, wind is not steady state, and it tends to get a bit slower in the last 50 feet or so above the ground. A little cushion may be helpful to get through any sudden decreases in airspeed, but too much can difficult when you try to get rid of it down low flying down the runway.

Normally, I would suggest a wheel landing in this case, but it is my understanding that 172's (and similar aircraft) don't do those very well and that's what makes nosewheel aircraft so difficult to land.

But it sound to me like you did just fine under the circumstances.

 

[FlySince9]

Have you watched "Flying Wild Alaska" on Discovery Channel, Friday Nights? You haven't seen a crosswind landing until you've seen Ponch land his 206 in 40 Knots!

That said, I always wonder why instructors do this to their students. IMHO there is a thin line between building confidence and destroying it. A good instructor knows the difference.

 

[Jaybird180]

Re: Worst Lesson Yet!

It worries me a little that instructors were debating this, as it is Day 1 stuff....

I think they were arguing over the wind/ground/treadmill thing

 

[denverpilot]

Re: Worst Lesson Yet!

heh heh heh

Ground speed is relevent only when related to two things:

When will we get there (and do I have enough gas). And,
Which end of the runway do I use - taking off or landing downwind requres more ground speed to get the necessary air speed which increases the runway requirements.
​

You forgot:

- How slow will I have to go to go backwards and freak the passengers out?

I bucked a darn headwind all the way home from Nebraska on Sunday... added 1/2 hour to the trip. Did it on purpose, though.

I decided to climb up to 9500 leaving Lincoln, and plow into the prevailing winter winds, because there were PIREPs of people getting bounced around pretty bad at 6000 and below in Western Nebraska and Eastern Colorado.

Moderate turbulence reported by many, and one Urgent PIREP of Severe being transmitted over the HIWAS on the Hastings VOR (I think it was Hastings)...

Decided I really didn't feel like cinching the seat belt down and dealing with that on such an otherwise nice day out. I was nice and relaxed up at 9500, had plenty of gas on board, and generally just decided to stay up there until the DEN Bravo required lower.