Ugh

SkyHog said:
Do you think they might have found the mine?
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I don't really get your post. Is it a joke? If so 6 people died 3 of them children. Not anything funny about it.
 
What I want to know is what was somebody doing flying a Turbo Commander through the Superstition Mountains in the dark?

Having grown up in the valley and flown out of FFZ quite a bit, I can say that is most definitely not my idea of a good time.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What I want to know is what was somebody doing flying a Turbo Commander through the Superstition Mountains in the dark?

Having grown up in the valley and flown out of FFZ quite a bit, I can say that is most definitely not my idea of a good time.
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What I don't understand is something from the story - it says the mountain tops are 5000'. Is there a reason why the plane should not be flying at, say, 8500?

Terrible tragedy. What a horror for the mother.
 
I was at Falcon Field just a few days ago.
I was there was for Night Flying seminar.

My only completely uneducated guess is that they were trying to stay below Class B and took their time with the climb.
If you look in the sectional, you could see why that could happen.

Again, no way to prove that theory.

What a waste.
 
onwards said:
What I don't understand is something from the story - it says the mountain tops are 5000'. Is there a reason why the plane should not be flying at, say, 8500?
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gil_mor said:
My only completely uneducated guess is that they were trying to stay below Class B and took their time with the climb.
If you look in the sectional, you could see why that could happen.
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You really have to thread the needle to stay below Bravo airspace east of KFFZ. Trying to remain VFR below the Bravo out there is difficult in the daytime and IMHO unthinkable at night.

On the chart below note the 5,067' peak just three NM outside the 5,000' Bravo floor. Floor of Outlaw MOA is 8,000'.

The blue line is the direct KFFZ-KSAD course:

KFFZ-KSAD.jpg


I took this photo while ducking down under the Bravo inbound to Williams-Gateway from the northeast ...

DSC04536.JPG
 
Some folks that live out that-a-way are saying it's very difficult to get Class B clearance or FF from Phoenix Approach there. It's difficult as has been said to fly VFR and stay below B and above D while avoiding terrain. They feel strongly, Phoenix Approach should work with VFR traffic more.

Best,

Dave
 
It looks like if they took off on NE heading runway and turned on course it would put them right track for 5057 point. CFIT... It looks like you would only have a minute or so to start your climb after bravo airspace
 
Why wouldn't they be on an IFR flightplan to avoid any VFR airspace/terrain issues?
 
Anthony said:
Why wouldn't they be on an IFR flightplan to avoid any VFR airspace/terrain issues?
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Many reason, including long release times, expected holds, inconvenient routes and vectors. The risk is a worthy trade off for some people.
 
Anthony said:
Why wouldn't they be on an IFR flightplan to avoid any VFR airspace/terrain issues?
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Maybe the pilot wasn't IFR rated.

Maybe he didn't want to talk to the controllers.

Maybe he wanted the flexibility that VFR allows.
 
If you were flying this route, VFR without a 'B' clearance on a moonless night and you tookoff on a NE departure runway, what would you do to mitigate the risk of CFIT?
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Some folks that live out that-a-way are saying it's very difficult to get Class B clearance or FF from Phoenix Approach there. It's difficult as has been said to fly VFR and stay below B and above D while avoiding terrain. They feel strongly, Phoenix Approach should work with VFR traffic more.

Best,

Dave
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If this is true, then that's a damn shame. Upsetting PHX APP seems like a no brainer opportunity cost over morting because Im trying to duck below an imaginary blue line. I do feel we don't instill enough fangs on our VFR only pilot crowd, to be able to feel as though they have the discretion as pilot in command, to act as such, and give the blue line the middle finger in order to save your family.

We'll never know what the positional awareness state was in that cockpit but I get the feeling someone's hairs were standing up and in spite of that no one felt comfortable telling PHX to 'kiss their rear, busting the blue line for altitude, put it on my tab when I land'. To have that fear of legal action cost you your life seems like such a waste. Sad sad story.
 
Jaybird180 said:
If you were flying this route, VFR without a 'B' clearance on a moonless night and you tookoff on a NE departure runway, what would you do to mitigate the risk of CFIT?
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Like I mentioned in my prior post, again putting myself in the position of a VFR only pilot facing a scenario of degraded situational awareness (I remember being a PP with only 100 hrs in C-172s, plenty of night flight 'can't find the dang airport....oh its right under me. oops'). Im not gonna monday morning quarterback and say 'well I would have delineated radials and dmes backed up by gps to ensure a makeshift MSA south of said boundaries as I depart' because nobody does that for every second of a recreational flight.

Again, in the context of the mindset of the flight in question, what I would positively done in order to mitigate this proverbial corner is to have the confidence and willingness to, at the very first hesitation over my positional awareness, to climb, climb and then climb so more. I'd climb so high theyt'd have to tell the players in Outlaw to knock-it-off for dumba$$ VFR traffic. The play by play of what this would look like goes something like this: 'f&**, i can't see ***t out front, how far south am I? ahh crap I don't think- - is this the? -- f** it, Im climbing" Talk to Phoenix on the climb, alliby I'm lost as a deaf bat, I can't see the mountains and state my altitude passing to. They can do what they wish. I got night and weekend minutes on my cell, so we can chat a while. But I'd bring my kids home and THAT is good ORM.

Clearly we want to effect better mitigation at the planning stages, but I do think we can learn a lot about the willingness or lack thereof of lower time non-IFR pilots to exercise that little big blurb on FAR Part 91.3a,b and c, we take for granted or gloss over during ground school.

We say the brown line killed this family? I'd say the blue one did. :nonod:
 
Jaybird180 said:
If you were flying this route, VFR without a 'B' clearance on a moonless night and you tookoff on a NE departure runway, what would you do to mitigate the risk of CFIT?
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I would've waited for sunrise. Freaking Bravo. I only flew to Denver, and that one was extremely claustrophobia-inducing.
 
Jaybird180 said:
If you were flying this route, VFR without a 'B' clearance on a moonless night and you tookoff on a NE departure runway, what would you do to mitigate the risk of CFIT?
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One would think that if you can afford a plane like that commander then you could, at minimum,easily afford a handheld GPS w/ terrain alerts. Not that a GPS is god, but it certainly would help in this situation w/ both terrain and defining the limits of the bravo.

Assuming, of course, that he was ducking and running which is indeed just an assumption at this point.
 
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Following the assumption the pilot stayed below 5,000 to avoid Bravo, he had approx 10 nm to climb above the 5057 rock once clear of the outer ring. To me that suggests an acute lack of SA...starting with the brief before engine start.
 
Jaybird180 said:
If you were flying this route, VFR without a 'B' clearance on a moonless night and you tookoff on a NE departure runway, what would you do to mitigate the risk of CFIT?
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Wait for daylight. If you follow the course line on the chart a few posts back, it goes directly into high terrain that is 9200-11,100ft. Forget that at night single engine vfr into a black hole where you can't see squat.

That said and hypothetical only: NE departure then continue a right turn off the airport staying close enough to be in a wide pattern toward mesa/gateway airport then SE toward Coolidge while staying under the Class B shelf until outside it's limits. Then circle climb over all that low flat terrain until high enough to not run into cumulogranite then go from there toward the mountains.
Heck, I'd rather climb my way all the way to Tuscon then go east than to head directly into invisible rock.
 
Richard said:
Following the assumption the pilot stayed below 5,000 to avoid Bravo, he had approx 10 nm to climb above the 5057 rock once clear of the outer ring.
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Nope, only FOUR NM. Look at the terminal area chart I posted above. This is insane.

Whoever is responsible for the design of this part of PHX Bravo should stand up and take a bow.
 
Morne said:
Maybe the pilot wasn't IFR rated.

Maybe he didn't want to talk to the controllers.

Maybe he wanted the flexibility that VFR allows.
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I'm almost certain the pilot would have been IFR rated since it was a turboprop. I'm wondering if it had TAWS. I'm not sure how many passenger seats the airplane had but it seems like it could have had six or more. Of course you're not supposed to rely on TAWS but it's supposed to be the last resort and there have been far fewer turbine CFIT accidents since this rule was adopted in 2005

§ 91.223 Terrain awareness and warning system.

(a) Airplanes manufactured after March 29, 2002. Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a turbine-powered U.S.-registered airplane configured with six or more passenger seats, excluding any pilot seat, unless that airplane is equipped with an approved terrain awareness and warning system that as a minimum meets the requirements for Class B equipment in Technical Standard Order (TSO)–C151.

(b) Airplanes manufactured on or before March 29, 2002. Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a turbine-powered U.S.-registered airplane configured with six or more passenger seats, excluding any pilot seat, after March 29, 2005, unless that airplane is equipped with an approved terrain awareness and warning system that as a minimum meets the requirements for Class B equipment in Technical Standard Order (TSO)–C151.
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.
 
Pilawt...
It's worse than that... there was a fight a few years ago when the FAA proposed lowering the Class B ceiling to 5,000 ft. in that area. It used to be 8,000 ft. The flying public and AOPA fought it. In fact, you can search the web and find letters from the AOPA expert on air space (Heidi Williams), where she specifically warns them that the changes will create a dangerous situation for pilots, where it will be difficult to gain sufficient altitude to safely climb over the peaks. Look at page 3 from this letter... .
While we don't know all the facts yet, this better show up as a contributing factor.
Tim
ps... re: the terrain warnings... while there is no doubt there were some, it's not unusual for us to ignore them when we KNOW there is terrain out there. In this case, I'd bet they ignored them, assuming they'd safely pass over the peaks.
 
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CT4ME said:
ps... re: the terrain warnings... while there is no doubt there were some, it's not unusual for us to ignore them when we KNOW there is terrain out there. In this case, I'd bet they ignored them, assuming they'd safely pass over the peaks.
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That's quite a shame, especially since in most panel GPS with terrain you can set the level of warning.

:(
 
Pilawt said:
Nope, only FOUR NM. Look at the terminal area chart I posted above. This is insane.

Whoever is responsible for the design of this part of PHX Bravo should stand up and take a bow.
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Depending on their speed that was probably about a minute.
 
CT4ME said:
ps... re: the terrain warnings... while there is no doubt there were some, it's not unusual for us to ignore them when we KNOW there is terrain out there. In this case, I'd bet they ignored them, assuming they'd safely pass over the peaks.
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It's one thing to ignore the warnings when you can see the terrain but would you really do it in the dark?
 
Pilawt said:
You really have to thread the needle to stay below Bravo airspace east of KFFZ. Trying to remain VFR below the Bravo out there is difficult in the daytime and IMHO unthinkable at night.

On the chart below note the 5,067' peak just three NM outside the 5,000' Bravo floor. Floor of Outlaw MOA is 8,000'.

The blue line is the direct KFFZ-KSAD course:

KFFZ-KSAD.jpg


I took this photo while ducking down under the Bravo inbound to Williams-Gateway from the northeast ...

DSC04536.JPG
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That picture made my jaw drop. I wonder if the pilot had the slightest clue of the terrain he was dealing with while trying to dodge the Bravo?
 
Anthony said:
Why wouldn't they be on an IFR flightplan to avoid any VFR airspace/terrain issues?
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Night VFR has it's time and place and can be done safely with proper SA, but over unfamiliar terrain low level is not one of those places.
 
timwinters said:
One would think that if you can afford a plane like that commander then you could, at minimum,easily afford a handheld GPS w/ terrain alerts. Not that a GPS is god, but it certainly would help in this situation w/ both terrain and defining the limits of the bravo.

Assuming, of course, that he was ducking and running which is indeed just an assumption at this point.
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Actually, the plane belonged to a Part 135 charter operator out of Safford. They did alot of fire spotting in the Southwest this past summer.
 
CT4ME said:
Pilawt...
It's worse than that... there was a fight a few years ago when the FAA proposed lowering the Class B ceiling to 5,000 ft. in that area. It used to be 8,000 ft. The flying public and AOPA fought it. In fact, you can search the web and find letters from the AOPA expert on air space (Heidi Williams), where she specifically warns them that the changes will create a dangerous situation for pilots, where it will be difficult to gain sufficient altitude to safely climb over the peaks. Look at page 3 from this letter... .
While we don't know all the facts yet, this better show up as a contributing factor.
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Wow. Just wow. So they lower the Bravo in such a way that it creates an issue for GA pilots, and then (if I understand correctly) make it really difficult to get clearance into the Bravo, leaving the same pilots with practically no choice? is this what I'm understanding from this? That's nuts. I know I'm new to aviation, but how often does this sort of thing happen?
 
onwards said:
Wow. Just wow. So they lower the Bravo in such a way that it creates an issue for GA pilots, and then (if I understand correctly) make it really difficult to get clearance into the Bravo, leaving the same pilots with practically no choice? is this what I'm understanding from this? That's nuts. I know I'm new to aviation, but how often does this sort of thing happen?
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There's always a choice. Takeoffs are optional.

Far too many NTSB reports are described as "Local pleasure flights..."

:(
 
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Horrible deal all the way around. Not being familiar with the area from what I can tell if he would of stayed under Class B for a tad longer to the south then did the skirt and climb East he would've been OK...true?

I hope AOPA and the families make an Issue of that letter. Reading Page 3 is a little Erie. Hope the FAA eats a little crow on this one.

Prayers with families and friends of the victims,

Tony
 
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dmccormack said:
There's always a choice. Takeoffs are optional.

Far too many NTSB reports are described as "Local pleasure flights..."
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Well, I mean, that's because general aviation is, in large part, about leisure flights. It stands to reason that many accidents will occur in those kinds of flights. Right?

Sounds from the news story like he did this plenty of times before, so I don't know that there was anything wrong with the decision to take-off. Or did I misread and this was an unfamiliar environment?

That letter from the AOPA person though is chilling. It's like someone predicting exactly this accident.
 
CT4ME said:
Pilawt...
It's worse than that... there was a fight a few years ago when the FAA proposed lowering the Class B ceiling to 5,000 ft. in that area. It used to be 8,000 ft. The flying public and AOPA fought it. In fact, you can search the web and find letters from the AOPA expert on air space (Heidi Williams), where she specifically warns them that the changes will create a dangerous situation for pilots, where it will be difficult to gain sufficient altitude to safely climb over the peaks. Look at page 3 from this letter... .
While we don't know all the facts yet, this better show up as a contributing factor.
Tim
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Chilling. Another matter of not if but when. Thank you for posting the letter.
 
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