Base to Final need Help

[Aviator1945]

I am a mature pilot have some 40 hours in a C 172. although I have finally learn't to flare but I have a big issue when turning base to final I want "pull "on the yoke or trim it so I don't feel the pressure on the yoke is that normal. my first instructor told me never do that I might stall the plane although I do keep the speed at 70/80 knots . None of my instuctors seem to give me a satisfactory answer, my lastest instuctor says I seem to have a good approach the only thing he see's is that I seem to have a problem managing power
what do I need to do ?

 

[MachFly]

I'm trying to understand the problem. You said you want to pull on the yoke so you don't feel the pressure, what kind of pressure are you feeling (in which direction, down or up)?
Do you have the same problem when making normal turns?

 

[rottydaddy]

I don't completely understand the question either, but I will say that that turn should be the same as any other descending turn.

 

[p1l0t]

I am a mature pilot have some 40 hours in a C 172. although I have finally learn't to flare but I have a big issue when turning base to final I want "pull "on the yoke or trim it so I don't feel the pressure on the yoke is that normal. my first instructor told me never do that I might stall the plane although I do keep the speed at 70/80 knots . None of my instuctors seem to give me a satisfactory answer, my lastest instuctor says I seem to have a good approach the only thing he see's is that I seem to have a problem managing power
what do I need to do ?

Well 80 kts is a pretty fast for a C172. You want to be down to about 65 [even less for a short-field] by the time you are on final. If it were me I would probably be trimmed for about 70kts. If you have to hold the nose down to stay on the glidepath you want than your doing wrong. That said, I think your first instructor was probably concerned with you with trimming WHILE in the turn. Base-to-final stall/spin accidents are the leading cause of student pilot fatalities. Trim while your wings are level at least. Your second instructor was probably commenting on the fact that 80kts is too fast for final. If your approach is good, your pointed for the numbers, at a decent altitude for your distance [on the correct glidepath], but your fast - than you need to pull back on throttle. That's what he means by controlling the power.

<---<^>--->

 

[cleared4theoption]

Seems to me as long as you maintain the desired speed (which in a C172 turning base to final should be around 70 knots) the back pressure on the yoke shouldn't be an issue...if you were putting to much back pressure, you would be going slower...in that configuration you are using back pressure to maintain the approach speed...so during the turn, just use whatever pressure is necessary to hold that speed.


-edit: all of this is true as long as you are in the proper configuration as far as flaps and power is concerned...

 

[wabower]

If you are trimmed for level flight at your desired speed on downwind, all you need to know is the power and configuration changes that will be required to be trimmed for your new speed and descent rate on base leg. These changes will be almost identical on every approach, depending on wind, so once you know the approximate number/amounts of movement required, it becomes dog-simple.

For example, prior to the turn to base, you could reduce power a ~500 RPM, hold altitude (back pressure) until the airplane slows to desired speed for base, trim 3 hand-fulls of nose-up to maintain the new desired speed, add one notch of flaps and start the turn when stabilized.

If that sequence (or one that's similar) is followed, the airplane will fly the base leg with no control pressures necessary. Ditto for turn to final.

 

[AdamZ]

I find the question confusing as well but I think that Wayne has hit the nail on the head with regard to power settings.

I'll relate that my belief is that a lot of CFI's want you to keep speed up on approach as they are less concerned with you going off the other end of the runway than not making the runway. I look at the speeds that I was taught to fly approaches during my primary training and think dang that was fast. It took me a while AFTER I got my ppl to really appreciate power management. I learned a lot from this board and a lot from watching others and flying with others.

 

[Clark1961]

One technique for a 172 is to use the following speeds & flap settings: downwind @ 80, abeam the touchdown point flaps to 10 and 75 kts, turning base flaps to 20 and 70 kts, turning final flaps to 30 and 65 kts. Power is mostly at 1400 rpm. If you're trimmed @ 80 little trimming is needed until short final. Descent throughout is about 400 fpm. Adjust throttle as necessary for stable descent.

 

[dmccormack]

What Wayne said.

All I can add is I typically demonstrate a hands-off pattern with index finger and thumb for turns. Get trimmed up for speed, level at that speed + power setting.

Reduce power to achieve desired descent rate (500 FPM is good in a C172). Trim should keep you on speed, shouldn't have to change control pressure.

The turn from downwind to base then to final is usually where students get slow -- they turn left and pull in.

Don't. Turn only. Don't pull. You're already trimmed for an airspeed.

 

[poadeleted20]

...I have a big issue when turning base to final I want "pull "on the yoke or trim it so I don't feel the pressure on the yoke is that normal. my first instructor told me never do that I might stall the plane although I do keep the speed at 70/80 knots .

Once you've trimmed for the desired speed and configuration, you shouldn't need to trim in the turns to maintain speed (and you do want to maintain your speed), and you don't want to change the trim in the turn to help hold the nose up or you'll be trimmed too nose-up when you roll out.

As you learned on your first few lessons, you need to use a little extra back pressure to maintain altitude in level turns, although you'll lose a little speed when you do. That's OK for that phase of flight, but you don't want to trim in that level turn or you'll be trimming for that lower speed, and then have to re-trim after you roll out as the airplane accelerates back to the original speed. In a descending turn like the one from base to final, you aren't trying to maintain altitude anyway, so you don't need that extra back pressure (which will slow you down) or trim (which again, will slow you down), just a bit of extra power (and I do mean just a little bit if your descent path is OK up to that point) to keep the descent rate from increasing in the turn and dropping you low.

Remember -- trim for speed, power for climb/descent rate. Keep that in mind, and your approaches to land will be a lot smoother and stabler.

 

[Jaybird180]

Well 80 kts is a pretty fast for a C172. You want to be down to about 65 [even less for a short-field] by the time you are on final. If it were me I would probably be trimmed for about 70kts. If you have to hold the nose down to stay on the glidepath you want than your doing wrong. That said, I think your first instructor was probably concerned with you with trimming WHILE in the turn. Base-to-final stall/spin accidents are the leading cause of student pilot fatalities. Trim while your wings are level at least. Your second instructor was probably commenting on the fact that 80kts is too fast for final. If your approach is good, your pointed for the numbers, at a decent altitude for your distance [on the correct glidepath], but your fast - than you need to pull back on throttle. That's what he means by controlling the power.

<---<^>--->

Should say (italics and bold are mine)

Well 80 kts is a pretty fast for a C172. You want to be down to about 65 [even less for a short-field] by the time you are on final. If it were me I would probably be trimmed for about 70kts. If you have to hold the nose down to stay on the glidepath you want than your doing wrong. That said, I think your first instructor was probably concerned with you with trimming WHILE in the turn. Base-to-final stall/spin accidents are one of the leading cause of pilot fatalities. Trim while your wings are level at least. Your second instructor was probably commenting on the fact that 80kts is too fast for final. If your approach is good, your pointed for the numbers, at a decent altitude for your distance [on the correct glidepath], but your fast - than you need to pull back on throttle. That's what he means by controlling the power.

<---<^>--->

Try this technique and see if it works for you:

Enter pattern at 2200 rpm, trim for straight and level
Establish downwind, speed stabilized
Abeam the threshold, 1500 rpm, 10deg flaps, hold altitude until 80kts then decend at 80kts, trim to relieve pressure at that attitude
Turn base at 45 degree angle-off, roll wings level 20degrees flaps, slow to 70kts
Turn final, roll wings level 30 degrees flaps 60 kts (you will not stall, contrary to Old Wives Tales).
Short final (runway is assured) reduce power to idle (don't slam throttle shut)
Maintain your idle-power glide
Level off and hover just above the runway
As plane decends, begin the flare (you should hear the stall horn by now), nice steady pressure on the yoke (remember a teensy teensy bit of right rudder), easy touch on the yoke for ....3-2-1, touchdown.

 

[dell30rb]

Should say (italics and bold are mine)



Short final (runway is assured) reduce power to idle (don't slam throttle shut)
Level off and hover just above the runway (remember right rudder)
As plane decends, begin the flare (you should hear the stall horn by now), nice steady pull, easy touch 3-2-1, touchdown.

I haven't flown a 182 but do you really need right rudder with the power at idle? Maybe with absolutely zero wind but if there is a crosswind at all your rudder usage will be determined by that

 

[RoscoeT]

I haven't flown a 182 but do you really need right rudder with the power at idle? Maybe with absolutely zero wind but if there is a crosswind at all your rudder usage will be determined by that

I've never flown a plane that needed right rudder through roundout and touchdown with power at idle...even in high power-to-weight planes. There just isn't enough thrust at idle to cause a noticeable slipstream yaw as airspeed decays. Keep in mind too, that as you pitch the nose up, it introduces a (small) gyroscopic yaw force to the right. This would require left rudder if it was actually significant.

So two insignificant opposing forces cause no need for rudder during the roundout/touchdown, inconsiderate of x-wind. If there was a significant yaw, you would especially notice this in tailwheel airplanes due to the swerve you'd get upon touchdown. I've never noticed this to any degree. If you need rudder, it sounds more like an aircraft quirk or rigging issue. But lots of people seem to want to touch down with power these days, even in light trainers, so maybe some will need a slight amount of right rudder.

 

[Jaybird180]

1- The OP said C172
2- I've always needed a teensy-teensy bit of right rudder to get it down on both wheels in calm winds





I think....

 

[Jaybird180]

Okay I see it now...I will make the correction.

 

[Aviator1945]

Re: downwind to Base need Help

I'm trying to understand the problem. You said you want to pull on the yoke so you don't feel the pressure, what kind of pressure are you feeling (in which direction, down or up)?
Do you have the same problem when making normal turns?

Sorry I should have said "downwind to base "I am okay on the final ", No I don't feel any pressure on the yoke when I make regular turns. What seems to happen when I am turning downwind to Base I reduce the power to 1500/1700 at 800 msl (ktcy is 193 AGL pattern alltitude is 1000) when my nose is down I want to pull back on the yoke (nose up) since I feel I am loosing too much altitude , my instructor seems to think I have a power management problems , but my approachs on the final are good I do seem to over correct. what I want to know should I just trim the plane during downwind to base so I don't feel the urge to bring the nose up ?
thanks all appreciate feed back

 

[Aviator1945]

Well 80 kts is a pretty fast for a C172. You want to be down to about 65 [even less for a short-field] by the time you are on final. If it were me I would probably be trimmed for about 70kts. If you have to hold the nose down to stay on the glidepath you want than your doing wrong. That said, I think your first instructor was probably concerned with you with trimming WHILE in the turn. Base-to-final stall/spin accidents are the leading cause of student pilot fatalities. Trim while your wings are level at least. Your second instructor was probably commenting on the fact that 80kts is too fast for final. If your approach is good, your pointed for the numbers, at a decent altitude for your distance [on the correct glidepath], but your fast - than you need to pull back on throttle. That's what he means by controlling the power.

<---<^>--->

My final approaches are at 65/70 and I am good on my glide paths sometimes 10 to 15 feet high but correct to the PAPI on the runway

 

[MachFly]

Re: downwind to Base need Help

Sorry I should have said "downwind to base "I am okay on the final ", No I don't feel any pressure on the yoke when I make regular turns. What seems to happen when I am turning downwind to Base I reduce the power to 1500/1700 at 800 msl (ktcy is 193 AGL pattern alltitude is 1000) when my nose is down I want to pull back on the yoke (nose up) since I feel I am loosing too much altitude , my instructor seems to think I have a power management problems , but my approachs on the final are good I do seem to over correct. what I want to know should I just trim the plane during downwind to base so I don't feel the urge to bring the nose up ?
thanks all appreciate feed back

I recommend you always set it to the same power setting and pitch for airspeed (the one you planned for). Trust your instruments and continue descending. Most of the time this will work. When it does not due to other traffic or wind you will need to adjust your power setting, soon when you get familiar with the airplane you'll easily know when you should accelerate or decelerate your descend, for now try to keep it the same.
I do not recommend you trim for the base & final, since the longest leg of the pattern is downwind, I recommend you keep it trimmed for that. Also you really don't want to be retriming the airplane for each part of the pattern and every time you change the flap settings.

 

[Aviator1945]

If you are trimmed for level flight at your desired speed on downwind, all you need to know is the power and configuration changes that will be required to be trimmed for your new speed and descent rate on base leg. These changes will be almost identical on every approach, depending on wind, so once you know the approximate number/amounts of movement required, it becomes dog-simple.

For example, prior to the turn to base, you could reduce power a ~500 RPM, hold altitude (back pressure) until the airplane slows to desired speed for base, trim 3 hand-fulls of nose-up to maintain the new desired speed, add one notch of flaps and start the turn when stabilized.

If that sequence (or one that's similar) is followed, the airplane will fly the base leg with no control pressures necessary. Ditto for turn to final.

Wayne, thanks I am going to try this when I fly next, and thank you everybody all great suggestions.

 

[Aviator1945]

Re: downwind to Base need Help

I recommend you always set it to the same power setting and pitch for airspeed (the one you planned for). Trust your instruments and continue descending. Most of the time this will work. When it does not due to other traffic or wind you will need to adjust your power setting, soon when you get familiar with the airplane you'll easily know when you should accelerate or decelerate your descend, for now try to keep it the same.
I do not recommend you trim for the base & final, since the longest leg of the pattern is downwind, I recommend you keep it trimmed for that. Also you really don't want to be retriming the airplane for each part of the pattern and every time you change the flap settings.

MachFly, thanks solves on problem Will trim for cruise on downwind and leave the trim alone

 

[nosehair]

Re: downwind to Base need Help

what I want to know should I just trim the plane during downwind to base so I don't feel the urge to bring the nose up ?

Yes, if you mean trim off the pressure so you don't have to hold the nose up. Ever. You should always trim as you make any power or flap change. Except of course for momentary power changes, or pitch changes due to turbulence.
The idea is to always fly with two fingers caressing the yoke. So that when you start the initial back pressure in the flare (round-out, level-off, whatever you call it), the initial feel of the pressure is the same. Producing consistent results.

Train to an automatic response like this: If my stick hand is having to exert any consistent pressure to control pitch attitude, my other hand is automatically trimming off that pressure.
Except on short final and during roundout/flare which is where I should have it trimmed to hands off anyway.

 

[zaitcev]

Re: downwind to Base need Help

when my nose is down I want to pull back on the yoke (nose up) since I feel I am loosing too much altitude , my instructor seems to think I have a power management problems

Two things:
- I often feel uncomfortable with the sink during the final pattern turns, in high-wing airplanes, because I lose sight of the runway. Try a right-hand pattern one day, see if that helps. Or, fly a Cherokee. That one also sinks in turns, but you always know if you're making the runway.
- Pulling the nose up will make the sink worse. If you think that you're undershooting, add power, but do not pull the nose up (unless you're way over Vy). The nose goes up when your airspeed is too great, goes down when airspeed is too low, but you aim your glide with power. Perhaps that is what your instructor meant.

 

[dmspilot]

Re: downwind to Base need Help

Sorry I should have said "downwind to base "I am okay on the final ", No I don't feel any pressure on the yoke when I make regular turns. What seems to happen when I am turning downwind to Base I reduce the power to 1500/1700 at 800 msl (ktcy is 193 AGL pattern alltitude is 1000) when my nose is down I want to pull back on the yoke (nose up) since I feel I am loosing too much altitude , my instructor seems to think I have a power management problems , but my approachs on the final are good I do seem to over correct. what I want to know should I just trim the plane during downwind to base so I don't feel the urge to bring the nose up ?
thanks all appreciate feed back

I have always added nose-up trip after making the power reduction, which occurs when on downwind and abeam the approach end of the runway. This because I want to slow down before I start descending.

For a power off (gliding) approach, you don't have much choice, you should add back pressure and/or trim to maintain altitude until you reach best glide speed, then lower the nose to maintain that speed.

For a power-on approach, you have more flexibility and there are probably several different techniques that can be used, all with equal validity. It seems like some people will reduce power, maintain altitude for a few seconds to slow down, while others maintain the same airspeed and immediately start descending. Perhaps you should ask your instructor to be more specific on what technique he or she expects. "You have power management problems" is not a useful criticism.

 

[Jaybird180]

Once you begin you are abeam the numbers DO NOT LOOK AT THE ALTIMETER OR VSI! This is supposed to be a visual approach. Learn what the approach should LOOK like. Pick that spot in your field of vision and keep the threshold there. Once your airspeed is stabilized, only change power to adjust your aiming point.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've never flown a plane that needed right rudder through roundout and touchdown with power at idle...

I have, but they all had the rudder trim tab misadjusted.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: downwind to Base need Help

What seems to happen when I am turning downwind to Base I reduce the power to 1500/1700 at 800 msl (ktcy is 193 AGL pattern alltitude is 1000) when my nose is down I want to pull back on the yoke (nose up) since I feel I am loosing too much altitude , my instructor seems to think I have a power management problems

As I said earlier, if you're losing too much altitude in the turns, and you're on speed, they you do have a power management problem, and you should be adding power, not raising the nose to correct. If you raise the nose, you'll lose speed, and that's not something you want to do in the base-to-final turn if you're on speed to start with.

Of course, if it's just a perception problem ("I feel I am loosing too much altitude"), that's something you have to overcome another way. You'll need to pay more attention to your glide path cues, and to knowing the altitudes you want to be at as you reach each point in the pattern (abeam touchdown, beginning base turn, completing base turn, beginning final turn, completing final turn), and then using power, not pitch, to hit those marks.

 

[jsadamson1]

Sorry I should have said "downwind to base "I am okay on the final ", No I don't feel any pressure on the yoke when I make regular turns. What seems to happen when I am turning downwind to Base I reduce the power to 1500/1700 at 800 msl (ktcy is 193 AGL pattern alltitude is 1000) when my nose is down I want to pull back on the yoke (nose up) since I feel I am loosing too much altitude , my instructor seems to think I have a power management problems , but my approachs on the final are good I do seem to over correct. what I want to know should I just trim the plane during downwind to base so I don't feel the urge to bring the nose up ?
thanks all appreciate feed back

I had a similar problem, mine was I too thought I was loosing too much altitude. My power management was not that we'll due to me thinking that I was too low. I would say fly your approach and get comfortable with the correct altitudes that you need to fly. I know I got over it by telling myself where I needed to be on downwind, base and turning final ( in reference to agl altitude) since then, I usually turn final and am just a hair over the glide slope at 80 knots ( I fly a sundowner) everytime. Once you feel comfortable with your altitudes, keep in mind the sight picture, this way when you are at unfamiliar airports, you know what it should look like!

 

[wabower]

Can you elaborate on your sillyass theory as to why a pilot should not use all the tools available to him during this maneuver?

Once you begin you are abeam the numbers DO NOT LOOK AT THE ALTIMETER OR VSI! This is supposed to be a visual approach. Learn what the approach should LOOK like. Pick that spot in your field of vision and keep the threshold there. Once your airspeed is stabilized, only change power to adjust your aiming point.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Can you elaborate on your sillyass theory as to why a pilot should not use all the tools available to him during this maneuver?

Ever flown gliders? During a landout, what makes you think the altimeter is providing anything useful?

 

[wabower]

No. Was a question about flying the subject of this thread? Have you ever flown an airplane in a crosswind pattern?

Ever flown gliders? During a landout, what makes you think the altimeter is providing anything useful?

 

[Jim Logajan]

No. Was a question about flying the subject of this thread? Have you ever flown an airplane in a crosswind pattern?

I started my flight training in gliders where emphasis was on judging approaches by angles. Jaybird's post was a reasonable synopsis of the training I received.

But I probably was too terse - you are correct that a pilot should use all the tools at his or her disposal. If it can help a student, use the VSI and altimeter. I think I only use the VSI on downwind and in slowing up abeam the numbers; I don't pay attention to it (or the altimeter) on base and final. That's true for me in gliders and airplanes. But I am not a CFI and don't have a lot of hours, so I should be the first to say that my opinion has no basis in experience or authority.

 

[wabower]

Nor am I suggesting that either instrument is necessary in all situations. But when a guy starts yelling NEVER! when it's obviously the wrong answer, some clarification should be provided. As much as we'd like to think every pattern is the same, we should know it's not true and that many variables creep into the equation.

If I'm planning a 500' AGL turn to final and belatedly find the cross-wind is different than I expected, or that the pattern size has changed for whatever reason (for example when tower calls the base) my cross-check should immediately come into play to help with SA and make the appropriate adjustments.

I started my flight training in gliders where emphasis was on judging approaches by angles. Jaybird's post was a reasonable synopsis of the training I received.

But I probably was too terse - you are correct that a pilot should use all the tools at his or her disposal. If it can help a student, use the VSI and altimeter. I think I only use the VSI on downwind and in slowing up abeam the numbers; I don't pay attention to it (or the altimeter) on base and final. That's true for me in gliders and airplanes. But I am not a CFI and don't have a lot of hours, so I should be the first to say that my opinion has no basis in experience or authority.

 

[ebetancourt]

Ok, my flame suit is on. Here goes.

Pitch controls airspeed in the pattern. Someone said earlier in the thread, "if your airspeed is correct and you are sinking too fast, you do have a power management problem," or words to that effect. Learn to nail the airspeed with the yoke. Use power to control the rate of descent. I used to argue that you just used both to control the airplane. New pilots in making don't. Ask your instructor to take you to the practice area. Let the instructor vary the throttle from idle to full power, and you hold various airspeeds. Final, downwind, cruise, etc. Do it while maneuvering the aircraft, level first, then turns. Fly the airplane, trim the pressures off. BTW, know the airspeed you want at each point in the pattern, then lock it in.

Ernie

 

[poadeleted20]

Pitch controls airspeed in the pattern.

I would rather say that trim controls airspeed. Once you trim for a speed, the plane will maintain that speed without any pitch inputs from the pilot, although the pitch will vary with power increase/reduction. So, if they plane is trimeed for 100 knots with power for level flight, if you add power and don't put any pressure on the stick/yoke, the nose will go up and the plane will climb while maintaining 100 knots. Reduce power, and the nose goes down and you descend while still holding 100 knots. Try sometime -- you'll see.

 

[denverpilot]

I haven't flown a 182 but do you really need right rudder with the power at idle? Maybe with absolutely zero wind but if there is a crosswind at all your rudder usage will be determined by that

Not unless you rolled in a crap-ton of unnecessary left-rudder trim.

(So many people forget to trim the rudder in the 182. If the ball isn't centered, just roll the trim and fix it while you're down there fiddling with the elevator trim. Rocket science...)

 

[dell30rb]

The op's problem is most likely that when he rolls in a 30 degree bank to start his turn, and the nose drops he gets a little frightened and pulls back on the yoke too much during the turn, slowing the aircraft.

You just have to get used to letting the nose drop some in the turn to keep your airspeed up. Keep glancing at your airspeed during the turn to see how you are doing.

I know the op has gotten some conflicting advice but for what its worth... Nothing wrong with trimming in the pattern. I trim every time i add in more flaps. Just make sure you do it right, dont focus on trim immediately after making a change. Fly until you have your airspeed nailed and then trim to take the pressure away

 

[dmccormack]

The op's problem is most likely that when he rolls in a 30 degree bank to start his turn, and the nose drops he gets a little frightened and pulls back on the yoke too much during the turn, slowing the aircraft.

Bingo.

It's a left turn. Student is flying with left hand. Left turn + ground shyness = pull back.

Same thing happens straight and level. Ask student to look at chart, etc.

The left hand on the yoke pulls back and left. Now we're climbing 100 FPM while gradually banking left.

 

[Jaybird180]

Nor am I suggesting that either instrument is necessary in all situations. But when a guy starts yelling NEVER! when it's obviously the wrong answer, some clarification should be provided. As much as we'd like to think every pattern is the same, we should know it's not true and that many variables creep into the equation.

Admittedly, NEVER was too strong. The advice was prescriptive in nature to the OPs problem of "feeling" his altitude.

 

[Jeanie]

Bingo.

It's a left turn. Student is flying with left hand. Left turn + ground shyness = pull back.

Same thing happens straight and level. Ask student to look at chart, etc.

The left hand on the yoke pulls back and left. Now we're climbing 100 FPM while gradually banking left.

~~~~~~~. I remember when I started learning to fly and I was uncomfortable in the pattern turning and seeing so much ground in the windshield that I'd pull back.... My CFI had to remind me that to get to the ground to land I had to let the plane go toward the ground. I imagine that he will get used to it.
Practicing 30* coordinated descending turns at altitude might help him get used to the view. 1/2 sky 1/2 ground with 20* flaps at 60-65 kts in the 152 is what we aim for.

 

[Aviator1945]

~~~~~~~. I remember when I started learning to fly and I was uncomfortable in the pattern turning and seeing so much ground in the windshield that I'd pull back.... My CFI had to remind me that to get to the ground to land I had to let the plane go toward the ground. I imagine that he will get used to it.
Practicing 30* coordinated descending turns at altitude might help him get used to the view. 1/2 sky 1/2 ground with 20* flaps at 60-65 kts in the 152 is what we aim for.

Thanks
Asghar