Go Around criteria?

kontiki

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Kontiki
Like other novice pilots, I've been working to resolve landing issues.

I decided, that:

1 - On Final at 500 ft AGL, I must be at landing speed (slow enough), else Go Around

2 - When I start flare I need to have 200% nominal landing distance ahead of me (maybe 1500 ft at home field, normal conditions), else Go Around.

I want to know and verify those points, like speed check, distance check, flare.

I must never ride a landing in like a passenger. Every landing, at any moment, in an instant I am ready to execute 5cs. (and I mean I want to be on carb heat and throttle in a half second or less).

5Cs:
Cram
Climb
Clean
Cool
Call

Anybody see anything I'm missing. Honestly, I usually don't even get this 100% right.
 
Once I figured out that a stabilized approach was the key to landing wonderfulness, the landing part became much, much easier.

:yes:

FWIW, my definition of "Stabilized" isn't referring to any power settiing or specific attitude -- it simply means the airplane is where I want it to be at the speed I want to be flying at this point in the landing sequence.

That may mean a slip/no slip, full flaps/no flaps, 800 RPM, idle -- whatever -- as long as I am not surprised.
 
Also a new pilot, so take any of my advice with a block of salt.:dunno:

500' AGL is a fine standard to use. Knock yourself out. Of course, it is a bit arbitrary.

Whether or not you make a habit out of it you should consider that knowing how to salvage a bad approach can be useful. For instance, engine out procedures don't give you the luxury of aborting at 500' AGL.

Practice, preferrably on a big runway with your CFI next to you, those engine out procedures. Salvage some poor approaches. Some day it might save your bacon.

There's nothing wrong with doing a go around. Did one myself last flight, probably called it about 500' AGL just like you. Just don't use it as a crutch and know how to salvage those less bthan perfect approaches.
 
I would modify #2 to "landing in the touchdown zone" you surely knew when you planned the flight that you had sufficient runway. By alwayrs landing in the touchdown zone you don't need to make a judgment about runway remaining when you are working your hardest.

When flying light aircraft I define the touchdown zone as the first 1500 feet of runway or the first 1/3 whichever is less. On runways with center lines and standard markings you can count stripes to know where on the runway the touchdown zone ends.

I will vary this for operational reasons but not because I messed up the approach. Example, landing at JFK in a Mooney, I see no reason to land in the first 1000 feet and taxi for a mile or more when I can land a reasonable distance before the turnoff that is closest to my destination so long as there is sufficient runway remaining which for that aircraft is 2500'. I always advise the tower I will be landing long. Normally it is not an issue for them.
 
Once I figured out that a stabilized approach was the key to landing wonderfulness, the landing part became much, much easier.

:yes:

FWIW, my definition of "Stabilized" isn't referring to any power settiing or specific attitude -- it simply means the airplane is where I want it to be at the speed I want to be flying at this point in the landing sequence.

That may mean a slip/no slip, full flaps/no flaps, 800 RPM, idle -- whatever -- as long as I am not surprised.

So you are considering a stabilized approach to be any combination of speed, altitude and alignment so long as you are comfortable with it?
 
What airplane are you flying? Cessna I'm guessing? Remember to retract flaps to 20 degrees immediately after adding power. You'll have a real hard time with 30 degrees of fowler flaps hanging out. If you're on a short field or you went around because you were running low on runway, be very quick about establishing Vx

A truly stabilized landing never really happens unless you're flying early morning or evening (or at night). For most landings you'll have winds and thermals kicking you around and off glidepath. And you'll always be correcting.

Here's a tip - if you get way low on approach don't just add some power and drag it in. Add enough to fly it level until you're back on glidepath. Maintain approach airspeed. Then just pull the power back to your normal descent power setting.

Similarly a slip works if you're too high. If you haven't practiced using a full slip to land give it a shot (with an instructor if you don't feel comfortable). Once you get a feel for how fast you can actually come down and land, you'll know what the 'window' is for you to make a smooth landing. You can add just a little bit of a slip if you're just a little bit high, or you can add a lot of slip if you're real high.
 
So you are considering a stabilized approach to be any combination of speed, altitude and alignment so long as you are comfortable with it?


Re-read what I wrote:

airplane is where I want it to be at the speed I want to be flying at this point in the landing sequence.

Slipping into a short field over the tops of trees I might be "high", slipping, and slow.

As soon as I clear the trees I might reduce the slip, drop the nose, dive a bit, then float to the intended touchdown point.

We're not talking about transport category airliners here....
 
As others have said - the 500 agl thing is kinda silly. It all depends on the runway. If you're coming into a short strip with trees around its good to make an early go around if you're getting out of whack. But if you're coming into a 5000' runway with no obstructions its a little different. If you think you can cross the threshold at a reasonable height, airspeed and on centerline go for it.

The reason for this is simple... you turn final on that cornfield you picked out from cruise altitude when your engine shart itself. You're too high. You can't go around. You need to be thinking "what do I need to do to put the airplane there". You can use experience and tools you've developed from the hundreds of crappy approaches you've made to save your bacon!
 
Hell, I'm not even on final at 500 AGL (800' pattern at my home drome)
 
As others have said - the 500 agl thing is kinda silly. It all depends on the runway. If you're coming into a short strip with trees around its good to make an early go around if you're getting out of whack. But if you're coming into a 5000' runway with no obstructions its a little different. If you think you can cross the threshold at a reasonable height, airspeed and on centerline go for it.

The reason for this is simple... you turn final on that cornfield you picked out from cruise altitude when your engine shart itself. You're too high. You can't go around. You need to be thinking "what do I need to do to put the airplane there". You can use experience and tools you've developed from the hundreds of crappy approaches you've made to save your bacon!
:rofl:

Then, as the king of crappy approaches, I am GOLD! :happydance:

Last approach I was kind distracted by a bunch of stuff (plus I couldn't see the airport from the last part of the downwind with my daughter in the right seat so I was kinda guessing (as usual) about how far to fly out over the lake before turning base (Right traffic for 04 at ONZ)) and I ended up on tight base at purd near pattern altitude. I asked my daughter if she thought we could make it and she just looks at me "Noooo."

So, what's the sensible thing to do at that point?

On the other hand, what did I do? "I'm going to have to slip pretty hard." Shoved the stick over against the stop. Pushed it forward a bit. Work the rudders.

Made the first turn off with ease. (Of course, it helps that the first turnoff is 1700 feet down the runway.)

Some day I gotta learn how to fly again.
 
Can't we pretend though? :)
Amen. There are lots of reasons why you don't see many transport category landing accidents compared to light planes, but having criteria like these for continuing the landing approach past a certain point is one of the biggest. While different folks may pick different altitudes or distances remaining based on their own skill and experience, adoption of the concept is a strong positive safety contributor. I commend kontiki for taking this professional approach to this issue, and if we all did the same, there'd be a lot less bent metal scattered around runways.
 
My one and only criteria for go-around - am I confident I can make the runway without damage to me, the airplane or anything on the ground?

It really comes down to a level of comfort and that comes with practice & experience. There have been times I've salvaged what appeared to be imminent horrible landings and other times there's this little nagging feeling something is wrong and it's an immediate go-around. I don't stop to analyze, I don't have specific criteria, it's instinctive & immediate - Go Around! I may have done go-arounds more often than needed, but I've never regretted NOT doing the go-around!

With that in mind, I probably do more go-arounds than most people here and almost no touch-&-goes even when practicing in the pattern.
 
Here's a question for some of you -

How much do I need to be concerned about prop wash from other aircraft? I went around yesterday shortly after turning final because a Caribou was occupying the runway. If I had continued the approach I would have landed after he had departed and was around 200 agl. I would have landed well before his point of takeoff so no wingtip vortex to worry about, but I wasn't sure what effect his prop wash would have
 
I believe in stabilized approaches, and I subscribe to Dan's philosophy as well. You should have a standard (whatever it is) and stick to it.

When it comes to landing distance, I choose the runway based on performance numbers, and I go around if I'm not rolling in the first third of the runway.
 
How much do I need to be concerned about prop wash from other aircraft? I went around yesterday shortly after turning final because a Caribou was occupying the runway. If I had continued the approach I would have landed after he had departed and was around 200 agl. I would have landed well before his point of takeoff so no wingtip vortex to worry about, but I wasn't sure what effect his prop wash would have
Not much in that situation. If the plane ahead isn't making lift, there's not much to worry about.
 
I go around if I'm not rolling in the first third of the runway.
I've never much liked that concept. If I'm not down in the first third of a 10,000-foot runway, it's probably intentional because the FBO is at the far end. OTOH, if I touch down a third of the way down an 1800-foot grass runway, that may still not leave enough remaining to stop (depending on what I'm flying). I choose a touchdown point based on all relevant factors, and then aim for it. I also pick a "last chance point" based on landing distance and runway remaining as well as go-around distance, and if I'm not on the ground by then, away I go.
 
I've never much liked that concept. If I'm not down in the first third of a 10,000-foot runway, it's probably intentional because the FBO is at the far end. OTOH, if I touch down a third of the way down an 1800-foot grass runway, that may still not leave enough remaining to stop (depending on what I'm flying). I choose a touchdown point based on all relevant factors, and then aim for it. I also pick a "last chance point" based on landing distance and runway remaining as well as go-around distance, and if I'm not on the ground by then, away I go.


I land on the last 3rd at KMWH! It's a LONG taxi if you don't, 13,500' runway and Columbia Pacific is at the Opposite end of the usual runway. When tower clears you to land they always end it with "permission to land long"
 
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Re-read what I wrote:

Slipping into a short field over the tops of trees I might be "high", slipping, and slow.

As soon as I clear the trees I might reduce the slip, drop the nose, dive a bit, then float to the intended touchdown point.

We're not talking about transport category airliners here....

I did read your post and I think your point is that stabilized approach criteria rob you of flexibility. If they are improperly implemented your point is well taken, but when properly implemented it is not an issue.

The purpose of establishing stabilized approach criteria is not to limit flexibility, it is to establish rules to live by. Such as -- I won't continue an approach if my speed 50' above the threshold is more than 10 kts above my target speed. It forces discipline on the pilot.

No one is talking about transport category aircraft, though the concept is the same. The underlying inquiry is under what circumstances do you consider an approach no longer stable? What are the objective criteria that inform your decision?

Let's look at your example. As I understand it you are executing a forward slip to land at an obstructed and short field. You clear the obstacle and remove the slip. You find yourself where you wanted to be in space, pointed in the correct direction at the speed you want to be at. Fine, you land. Consider though what would you do if your speed is 5 kts too fast. Is this a stabilized approach or do you go around? What about 10 kts too fast? What about 15 kts?

If your limit is target speed (what the transport category folks call Vref) + 10 at 50', is there any reason it should be different from the short field at friendly private grass strip or an ILS to 14L at ORD (disregarding the controller telling you to go fast)? I'd suggest the answer is no since I would probably also use the same Vref for both but I understand that many pilots fly slower speeds to short fields than what they consider not short. But they can still set a limit as to how much above and/or below the speed they will accept. Bust the limit it is a go around, no trying to save it, just go around and try again.

Don't confuse approach profiles with criteria. Your profile for the obstructed short field and the ILS to the two mile long runway will be different, but there are still objective criteria you can identify to guide you in making decisions.

Here is a common profile that implicitly adopts stabilized criteria. Many pilots are taught this profile when flying a VFR pattern in a non-complex aircraft.

Downwind clean at Vref +20 a distance from the runway you can reference from the aircraft,

Abeam the numbers reduce to 1500 RPM (or the number you know works for that aircraft) , flaps 1/3 or 10 or whatever the first increment might be, engine controls where they belong - I'm thinking carb heat, maintain Vref+20 and the landing checklist complete to an appropriate point.

Turn base 45 from the runway threshold, add another increment of flaps, adjust pitch/power as necessary to be at Vref +15 on base descending about 500 fpm,

Turn final and add the final increment of flaps, adjust power as necessary to be at Vref +10 on final when aiming at your landing spot, complete the before landing checklist, which may be as simple as GUMP, at 200, 100 and 50' AGL check that you are Vref +10, -0 and land the airplane.

That is a profile that incorporates specific objective criteria for determining the stability of the approach. All of that is profile except for the final 200' which incorporates a very specific Vref +10/-0 criteria, bust the criteria its a go around. Ignoring the criteria is at your peril. You will float if you are too fast, this will sometimes lead to porpoising and broken nose gear, or you could imitate a SWA 737 and run off the end at MDW killing a kid in a car. Too slow and you land short, or stall while still 30 feet in the air or some other not pleasant result.

One last thought, I don't know why people resist adopting transport category procedures when the safety record of the U.S. airline industry is so superior to the light GA safety record. I'm not suggesting all policies should be adopted and all procedures implemented wholesale, but many, such as sterile cockpit and stabilized approach criteria are appropriate after adapting them to suit the GA operating environment.

To summarize stabilized approach criteria are not incompatible with flight profile flexibility, they simply establish limits beyond which the pilot will not go but rather will execute an escape maneuver.

Fly Safely,
 
So, what's the sensible thing to do at that point?

On the other hand, what did I do? "I'm going to have to slip pretty hard." Shoved the stick over against the stop. Pushed it forward a bit. Work the rudders.

Made the first turn off with ease. (Of course, it helps that the first turnoff is 1700 feet down the runway.)

Some day I gotta learn how to fly again.[/QUOTE]

I would probably do the same thing in VMC conditions, but this is not because I don't have stabilized approach criteria, it is because they are not designed to restrict me from making steep approaches using forward slips.

Speed Vref +20 until in a normal position to land. Must cross the threshold at 50' +/- 20 and at Vref +10-/-0. That is still a stabilized approach, it is just that there are specific targets I must meet and if I miss them I go around.

If I found myself in this position when circling to land off an IFR approach, where the approach was necessary, then I would not continue because I am not in a position to make a normal approach and landing.
 
One last thought, I don't know why people resist adopting transport category procedures when the safety record of the U.S. airline industry is so superior to the light GA safety record. I'm not suggesting all policies should be adopted and all procedures implemented wholesale, but many, such as sterile cockpit and stabilized approach criteria are appropriate after adapting them to suit the GA operating environment.
True, so for transport category aircraft the standard is to be stabilized by 500' AGL in VMC and 1,000' AGL in IMC. However, it's much easier to maneuver a lighter airplane which is traveling much slower so maybe it could be modified to 500' AGL IMC and 200' AGL VMC, or something like that. But then I think it depends on many factors.
 
I've never much liked that concept. If I'm not down in the first third of a 10,000-foot runway, it's probably intentional because the FBO is at the far end. OTOH, if I touch down a third of the way down an 1800-foot grass runway, that may still not leave enough remaining to stop (depending on what I'm flying). I choose a touchdown point based on all relevant factors, and then aim for it. I also pick a "last chance point" based on landing distance and runway remaining as well as go-around distance, and if I'm not on the ground by then, away I go.
Good point. In some situations you've gotta make the go-around decision by the time you cross the runway threshold and sometimes you can wait past the midpoint of the runway if you needed to. The tricky part is being aware of where that point is. Of course if you deliberately limit your runway options to those which are over twice as long as needed to land safely, using the first third as your threshold for a go-around ought to work just fine.
 
Last CFI gave good advice: GO around the first time the thought of a go-around comes to mind on the approach. I think 500 ft is a good rule, especially if you have more than minor corrections to take care of. Depending on the plane if you are High it may not be able to loose that altitude quickly if its Mooney or similar.
 
Every landing is a go-around until I turn off. Every one. I am always ready to call it off. Every take-off is rejected until I rotate. I am always ready to pull the plug. Always. Last time I had to go around I didn't even have to think about it.
 
Like other novice pilots, I've been working to resolve landing issues.

I decided, that:

1 - On Final at 500 ft AGL, I must be at landing speed (slow enough), else Go Around

2 - When I start flare I need to have 200% nominal landing distance ahead of me (maybe 1500 ft at home field, normal conditions), else Go Around.

I want to know and verify those points, like speed check, distance check, flare.

I must never ride a landing in like a passenger. Every landing, at any moment, in an instant I am ready to execute 5cs. (and I mean I want to be on carb heat and throttle in a half second or less).

5Cs:
Cram
Climb
Clean
Cool
Call

Anybody see anything I'm missing. Honestly, I usually don't even get this 100% right.

Seems like of unnecessary thinking going on for a young pilot during a fairly critical phase of flight.

If it's feeling right - land.
If it's not feeling right - go around.
 
Outside of flight training, I have only done 2 go-arounds. The first was soon after getting my private, and for some reason I got the winds backwards in my head, and was correcting for a left crosswind by crabbing to the right. Oops.

The second, I was landing at Mt. Snow, Vermont with 30+mph winds. Everything was perfect until 75 feet when I got hit with turbulence from the winds rolling over, off, and around the mountain. Went around, and put it down firmly.

Other than that, once I'm on final, you can pretty much be assured that I'm landing. This does not include "runway inspection passes" however.
 
Other than that, once I'm on final, you can pretty much be assured that I'm landing. This does not include "runway inspection passes" however.

Not me. If I don't like what I see, I'm ready to go around. That said, I think I've done it twice myself, but I'm always ready. Most of the strips at which I land are in sufficiently good shape as to not be in dire need of my inspection. But your situation is understandable, being in Michigan and all.
 
Other than that, once I'm on final, you can pretty much be assured that I'm landing. This does not include "runway inspection passes" however.

Atta boy, killer!
 
first requirement is that i have a throttle...after that if it doesn't look right i try again. my most typical problem is other people on the runway in the way.
 
Outside of flight training, I have only done 2 go-arounds. The first was soon after getting my private, and for some reason I got the winds backwards in my head, and was correcting for a left crosswind by crabbing to the right. Oops.

The second, I was landing at Mt. Snow, Vermont with 30+mph winds. Everything was perfect until 75 feet when I got hit with turbulence from the winds rolling over, off, and around the mountain. Went around, and put it down firmly.

Other than that, once I'm on final, you can pretty much be assured that I'm landing. This does not include "runway inspection passes" however.

You mean mandatory wildlife clearing passes?
 
Seems like of unnecessary thinking going on for a young pilot during a fairly critical phase of flight.

If it's feeling right - land.
If it's not feeling right - go around.

I agree. You don't need to be focusing on your altimeter once you've started your descent. You don't need to be running through the 5 c's or whatever on final. You should be heads up - flying the plane by sight and feel and with quick glances at the airspeed to make sure you're not getting slow or fast.

I'm not saying you should ever rule out a go around... but if you're focusing on remembering your 5c's while you're on final, you're not really focusing on making a good landing.

Practice go-arounds in all phases of landing until they become second nature. Then you can instantly switch your thinking from landing mode to go around mode when its time. This way you can actually go around - the instant you think you might need to go around! It needs to be a muscle memory thing.. your throttle hand should basically be connected to your right foot. And you need to practice them at slow airspeeds and while you're in the flare too, so you can get a feel for how much that thing is going to yaw when you feed it full power all of a sudden at low speed.

I haven't done many go arounds since I was a student but I used to practice them all the time. Pre-Solo my instructor would randomly call on me to go around - even when I was about to make a nice touchdown. And If I didn't instantly make a well executed go around on his call, I had to practice until I could. After I solo'd he'd still throw them in from time to time just to make sure I was staying sharp.
 
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I think the last time I did one was on my first time landing on the short turf runway at 57D this summer (36). I misjudged distance to runway, my descent rate was too slow, and I had turned base too soon. When I realized I was going to need a VERY aggressive slip to get down, I pushed in the throttle. It's rare for me to go around though and I can usually land with no difficulty even from a fairly sloppy approach. It helps to have a couple hundred hours in the same airplane.
 
True, so for transport category aircraft the standard is to be stabilized by 500' AGL in VMC and 1,000' AGL in IMC. However, it's much easier to maneuver a lighter airplane which is traveling much slower so maybe it could be modified to 500' AGL IMC and 200' AGL VMC, or something like that. But then I think it depends on many factors.

The idea is to use apply the principles, not blindly apply the procedure. The principle underlying stabilized approach criteria is that at some point in the approach things should meet certain objective criteria that are non-negotiable.

Will this perhaps lead to the occasional go around when the approach could have been saved? Probably, but so what. The idea is to fly safely.
 
I've never much liked that concept. If I'm not down in the first third of a 10,000-foot runway, it's probably intentional because the FBO is at the far end. OTOH, if I touch down a third of the way down an 1800-foot grass runway, that may still not leave enough remaining to stop (depending on what I'm flying). I choose a touchdown point based on all relevant factors, and then aim for it. I also pick a "last chance point" based on landing distance and runway remaining as well as go-around distance, and if I'm not on the ground by then, away I go.

Intentionally landing long is one thing. My first-third rule is to trigger a go around when I intended to land "normally" and didn't.

And as far as runway length goes... it would be an rarity for me to try and land in a runway where I didn't have a 50% safety factor - which is another way of saying that if I've wasted the first third of the runway I may not have enough to stop.

But, like all "rules", there are always exceptions. I stole this rule from a local DPE I respect a lot, and it is a good "most of the time" way to define the "last chance" point you mention.
 
We're mixing things here, IMHO.

There are lots of things that trigger a go-around that have nothing to do with whether or not the approach is "stabilized".

My criteria for "stabilized" enough to land is on-speed over the fence, no drift left/right, and enough rudder to align if crabbed.

But that definition of "stabilized" doesn't match some people's or organization's "stabilized". What they want is an arbitrary set of numbers for airspeed and/or configuration and/or attitude.

Someone doing a power-off 180 started past the point of intended landing, for example, may not meet the requirements for "stabilized" and may make a continuous turn all the way to short-final to make the runway. Were they "stable"? If they did it right, yes.

That puts it at around 100' AGL, not 500'. If it were 500' AGL that would be at the base to final turn.

But I have no problem with someone setting a higher personal limit for their own safety. I believe that limit will have to be lowered for flying in certain challenging wind conditions, eventually though.

Additionally, talking again only about go-around criteria, one should add additional rules for night flying.

One example of mine is if there's a precision approach indicator or VASI, an "all red" on all lights is an instant go-around trigger for me, no matter how beautifully "stabilized" my approach has been.

Being low is not necessarily "unstable" but at night it can get you killed just as quickly.

I think the term "stabilized" is used incorrectly by a whole lot of systems for determining go-around criteria for lack of a better word.

I think "normalized" approach or "on-profile" approach captures this concept better. Under normal conditions you fly a profile. Abnormal conditions may require dropping the normalization, but one must still be "stable" in the landing configuration over the fence on short-final.

Deciding if being "off-profile" was intentional or unplanned and determining if being off-profile is criteria for a go-around is separate from defining the desired approach profile on a "normal" approach.

Is this too nit-picky a distinction? What do y'all think?
 
I think the last time I did one was on my first time landing on the short turf runway at 57D this summer (36). I misjudged distance to runway, my descent rate was too slow, and I had turned base too soon. When I realized I was going to need a VERY aggressive slip to get down, I pushed in the throttle. It's rare for me to go around though and I can usually land with no difficulty even from a fairly sloppy approach. It helps to have a couple hundred hours in the same airplane.

I lost 7000 feet on downwind once in a slip. Documented it right here. Did the same exact thing on our aborted trip to 6Y9. It was so dang hot, I didn't loose any altitude until the last second.
 
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