Don't practice that, there's no benefit.

[EdFred]

Sure, until you have to do exactly that.

When I was in private training, my instructor had me do at least one night landing with no runway lights, one with no landing light, and one with neither of them. I was told that was stupid and should never be done. Well guess what happened last night?

I'm out with my student finishing up his night landing requirements last night, and we've done four of them with the landing and runway lights on, and the runway lights have already shut off once in the pattern and we turned them back on again. The surface wind was calm and I said "let's use the other runway after this takeoff." So, we depart 12 for the fifth time and head out. I told him let's fly out a little bit beyond and above the pattern, and just make a 180 and come straight in. You never know what the situation might be that you may need to do a straight in vs a full pattern. Our PAPIs our OTS until the FAA comes back out so it's old school approach path. We make the 180 and the winds at altitude were blowing pretty good, because we were way high, way close, and way north of a straight in. So we fly back to the SE a but further and get lined up again...runway lights are off.

Click, click, click, click, click. Nothing. Repeat. Nothing. Seven clicks, nothing. Three clicks. Nothing. Five again. Nothing. We tried probably ten attempts to get the lights on. I had told my student about my training with no runway or landing lights, and I said, "well, looks like we get to do this for real." OK, we see where the beacon is, we see where the hangars are, so the runway is offset from those to the south. Let's start getting lined up with where we think the runway is. We make out the runway, and oddly enough the trees that usually don't stand out at all when the runway lights were on, were visible with them off, and we both noted that.

His smoothest landing of the night, and he made the first taxiway.

 

[jhausch]

Diverting not an option? Just curious. The task sounds like something I'd like to try....

 

[Henning]

Full moon nights rarely require any lighting.

 

[MarkL]

It's amazing how bright that moon can be, you can make out the runway layout, read the runway numbers, and even see the center line from pattern altitude. I did a landing last night where the moon was so bright I didn't even bother turning on the landing light.

Of course this doesn't hold true when there isn't a big full moon in the sky.

 

[Apache123]

Full moon nights rarely require any lighting.

So true. A full moon during clear sky with little to no light pollution shouldn't even count as night flying time.

Sharing a similar experience: When I first picked up my Apache after her post-purchase annual my instructor and I set out to fly her home, but since she was a new bird to us we spent a lot more time in pre-flight checking and verifying the location of some of those 'blind switches,' etc. This extended pre-flight let us get off the ground near the end of civil twilight -- probably not the best move for a plane neither of us had personally flown before (though he owns an Aztec and is very familiar with Apaches, just not this one).

The flight itself was to be very short, about 45 minutes in all, but during initial climb-out the nav lights, panel lights, and interior light circuit breaker blew. Thumbing over the breakers I find one popped out and press her back in. We have light for about 5 to 10 minutes then she blows once more. We didn't touch it again for the rest of the flight.

Thanks to the small flashlights we had, we were able to scan the instruments. During landing, though, it was apparent the landing light and taxi lights had burnt out, and a quick scan of the instruments showed an overcharge with either generator on. The generator switches go off. It also seemed that the runway lighting was stuck on low intensity, and the papi was out of service (at least we knew that ahead of time).

The landing was an interesting situation. I kept calling out the airspeed, altitude, and controlled/called out flaps when he asked for them while he managed the throttle and attitude. Right over the numbers we learned that my bird in particular does *not* like to float. Definitely not like when I've flown his Aztec, at least. *THWOMP* a good 5 foot fall that scared the poop out of my instructor and me.

My mechanic is looking at this right now (all fights since have been day-vfr ^_^). It looks like the left gen was at fault for the overcharge, and the original configuration on the Apache had nav, interior, and instrument/panel lights all on a 5amp breaker. Fun times!

I agree we should practice as many emergency situations as we can which we know are safely manageable. At the very least positive control of the aircraft is maintained with little-to-no-light landings.

 

[EdFred]

Diverting not an option? Just curious. The task sounds like something I'd like to try....

To where? We didn't know if our radio was transmitting.

 

[MarkL]

A diversion, if needed, could be to an airport where the lights are on already and don't require clicking the mic.

 

[Henning]

A diversion, if needed, could be to an airport where the lights are on already and don't require clicking the mic.

Or land in front of a road house....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

To where? We didn't know if our radio was transmitting.

Ummm... You have an awful lot of airports in MI. Heck, you could have called up GRR approach and asked them if your radio was transmitting. Then, either go there, or go somewhere else.

Or you could have flown to another nearby uncontrolled field and tried the lights there...

Unless you were about to run out of fuel, you had a TON of other options available.

BTW... It sounds like the landing light was working?

 

[EdFred]

Ummm... You have an awful lot of airports in MI. Heck, you could have called up GRR approach and asked them if your radio was transmitting. Then, either go there, or go somewhere else.

Or you could have flown to another nearby uncontrolled field and tried the lights there...

Unless you were about to run out of fuel, you had a TON of other options available.

BTW... It sounds like the landing light was working?

That assumes that GRR wasn't closed for the night. I suppose we could have flown to Lansing, and then got a cab ride back the hour and some change. Nah, the landing was uneventful.

 

[bbchien]

Yeah, just don't practice them at Gaston's

Any pilot should be fully capable.

 

[murphey]

It was a full moon last night. If you can't do a lights-out landing in a full moon something is wrong.

 

[EdFred]

It was a full moon last night. If you can't do a lights-out landing in a full moon something is wrong.

Wasn't that bright. High overcast where we were.

 

[denverpilot]

Full moon nights rarely require any lighting.

Unless there's an overcast.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Wasn't that bright. High overcast where we were.

Clearly, it was bright enough... But you haven't clarified, it sounds like you still had a landing light. Right?

 

[EdFred]

Clearly, it was bright enough... But you haven't clarified, it sounds like you still had a landing light. Right?

Correct we still had a landing light, but it could have probably been done completely moonless as well. Gaston's was.

 

[jnmeade]

I always taught a night landings as your instructor did. My express objective was to show students that that had even better altitude perception with no lights than they did with (so they'd quit looking out as far as the landing light illuminated and look at the end of the runway again, as they did in daylight) and that the airplane flew just as will when you did not see gauges as when you did. (With many, if not most, students, I put a towel over the instrument panel during day pattern work to get their eyes outside and not chasing gauges.)

 

[dmccormack]

Practiced it, teach it, have used it.

 

[Brad Z]

On Cessnas, I always did no landing light landings in conjunction with no flaps landings, with the idea that if you loose your electrical, you have neither. I've landed at dark airports before, but at least I had a WAAS provided glide slope and landing lights.

I'm glad the OP's scenario worked out ok for him. Had the landing become a reportable accident, he might have a hard time explaining 1) why he didn't divert, or 2) why he didn't use his functional landing light. It's just not a reasonable scenario to train for.

 

[CJones]

My instructor had me do no landing light landings and I had myself do no runway light landings to a familiar grass strip (waaaay after I had PPL). You never know when the skills might be needed.

 

[EdFred]

On Cessnas, I always did no landing light landings in conjunction with no flaps landings, with the idea that if you loose your electrical, you have neither. I've landed at dark airports before, but at least I had a WAAS provided glide slope and landing lights.

I'm glad the OP's scenario worked out ok for him. Had the landing become a reportable accident, he might have a hard time explaining 1) why he didn't divert, or 2) why he didn't use his functional landing light. It's just not a reasonable scenario to train for.

We did use the landing light. And if you lose your electrical how are you going to turn on the runway lights if you divert if you are flying from say, CMX to IWD? Where are you going to divert to? 45 minutes won't get you anywhere near a towered field.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I see nothing wrong with attempting the landing. Familar airport, moonlit night - if you can't see the runway environment at some elevation on final, you always have the option to go around and go someplace else, similar to going missed on an instrument approach. I would have done the same.

I've done night landings with no landing light before in PPL training but I don't recall doing one with no runway lights.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Good lesson for your student, Ed. Being prepared to BE PIC, and practicing realistic scenarios, is exactly what should happen during dual.

 

[Ted]

Nicely done. I've had to do that, as well. It's a good skill to have.

 

[jesse]

To where? We didn't know if our radio was transmitting.

One could try and call up flight service to see if it's working, or center, or whomever. If that doesn't work I'd just pull out my handheld and turn the lights on. I'd rather teach a student how to use all their tools to find a better option before I'd teach them how to land on a runway they can't see.

Basically I'd *confirm* the radio worked or didn't work before I'd make a decision with the reason being the radio may not be working.

I really try and get my students to understand that when something like this goes wrong, they can spend some time to evaluate all their options before making a decision. If there is no rush don't rush it. If in the end the best decision to be made is to land on a runway they can't see. Well then, so be it. But at least they'll know they didn't leave a better option on the table.

Lots of different ways to look at this

 

[EdFred]

One could try and call up flight service to see if it's working, or center, or whomever. If that doesn't work I'd just pull out my handheld and turn the lights on. I'd rather teach a student how to use all their tools to find a better option before I'd teach them how to land on a runway they can't see.

Basically I'd *confirm* the radio worked or didn't work before I'd make a decision with the reason being the radio may not be working.

I really try and get my students to understand that when something like this goes wrong, they can spend some time to evaluate all their options before making a decision. If there is no rush don't rush it. If in the end the best decision to be made is to land on a runway they can't see. Well then, so be it. But at least they'll know they didn't leave a better option on the table.

Lots of different ways to look at this

Flight service never answers when I have a radio that I KNOW is working. I don't carry a flightbag on my instructional flights - plus my handheld quit working. There was no rush, we could see the runway from quite a ways out.

 

[dmccormack]

Flight service never answers when I have a radio that I KNOW is working. I don't carry a flightbag on my instructional flights - plus my handheld quit working. There was no rush, we could see the runway from quite a ways out.

A handheld is NO guarantee of comms.

I've posted before and will post again:

• Worked fine from a C152 talking to Approach and tower when I lost all electric.
• Worked barely when I lost electric in a Bonanza over KPIT.
• Worked poorly from inside the Chief.
• Didn't work at all when batteries were found to be dead (rechargeable type) when lost electric in IMC.
• Works better than a mounted unit from inside the Chief hooked up to a simple whip antenna mounted on the wing root.

 

[jesse]

A handheld is NO guarantee of comms.

Nope. But it's more then capable of turning on runway lights if you're over the airport. As far as the battery problem I carry plenty of spare alkaline batteries.

My point wasn't really about the handheld radio, it's that no attempt was really made to verify if the problem was the lights or their radio, unless they had about 15 minutes of fuel left that wouldn't be what I'd teach. But to each their own

Flight service never answers when I have a radio that I KNOW is working. I don't carry a flightbag on my instructional flights - plus my handheld quit working. There was no rush, we could see the runway from quite a ways out.

You're either doing something wrong or you don't know how to contact flight service or you're taking one isolated incident where you couldn't reach them and are applying it to all your flying. Seriously. Teach your students how to talk to flight service. 90% of the time you can reach someone. Don't do them a disservice of just saying they don't respond. I honestly cannot think of a single time where I haven't been able to reach Flight Service throughout the country.

Center was always an option. As was Flight watch (depending on the time). Or you could just do a radio check over 122.8 and most likely someone would respond.

All in all what you did worked. So it doesn't really matter. I'm just trying to point out that during times like this the students need to know how to exhaust all their options when time is on their side. They won't always have you in the right seat.

 

[EdFred]

3 of the last 4 times I tried to contact FSS they have gone unanswered. Green Bay, Lansing and Kankakee (I think that's the one). The only one that did answer was in northern WV, but I've gotten none of them around here. With the last one I tried on 2 VOR frequencies off the chart, the nearest frequency on the 430, and the old 122.2 catch all. Nothing. Not even a garbled transmission back from them.

I'm also 0-3 with flight watch.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

3 of the last 4 times I tried to contact FSS they have gone unanswered. Green Bay, Lansing and Kankakee (I think that's the one). The only one that did answer was in northern WV, but I've gotten none of them around here. With the last one I tried on 2 VOR frequencies off the chart, the nearest frequency on the 430, and the old 122.2 catch all. Nothing. Not even a garbled transmission back from them.

The only time I couldn't get a hold of FSS was in Michigan.

Of course, it was also because, even though I tuned the VOR frequency to listen, I hadn't hit the switch to monitor it on the audio panel.

I'm also 0-3 with flight watch.

Only time I had trouble with flight watch was near a Center boundary - Both Centers answered me, and their radio transmissions were interfering with each other somewhat.

You sometimes have to be patient with FSS - Their "audio panel" has ~100 frequencies, which can cause several problems:

1) If you don't tell them which one you're listening on, it can take several of your transmissions for them to figure out exactly where you are and which button to use to talk to you. So, your call should go "Green Bay Radio, Bugsmasher 1234A, listening Madison 122.6." Yes, both location and frequency - There are often several in the same place.

2) They may be talking to someone else and you can't hear them. They work with WAY more transmitters than ATC does. They are, however, pretty good about saying "34A, stand by, be with you in a minute" if you'll just give them a second to flip over to you.

3) They have to push some buttons before they can talk back to you, and if you give up and change frequencies and ask again on a different freq, you simply end up confusing them.

So... State your location AND the actual frequency you're listening on, and wait at least a minute before you switch frequencies. And make sure your audio panel is monitoring the correct radios.

But for a radio check... Yeah, I'd call Center instead.

 

[EdFred]

1) If you don't tell them which one you're listening on, it can take several of your transmissions for them to figure out exactly where you are and which button to use to talk to you. So, your call should go "Green Bay Radio, Bugsmasher 1234A, listening Madison 122.6." Yes, both location and frequency - There are often several in the same place.

2) They may be talking to someone else and you can't hear them. They work with WAY more transmitters than ATC does. They are, however, pretty good about saying "34A, stand by, be with you in a minute" if you'll just give them a second to flip over to you.

3) They have to push some buttons before they can talk back to you, and if you give up and change frequencies and ask again on a different freq, you simply end up confusing them.

So... State your location AND the actual frequency you're listening on, and wait at least a minute before you switch frequencies. And make sure your audio panel is monitoring the correct radios.

But for a radio check... Yeah, I'd call Center instead.

I gave em 3+ radio calls over 5 minutes on each frequency before switching to the next one the last time. And yes, I told them which VOR and frequency I was listening on. I got boxed in a VMC hole by IMC near Peotone, but couldn't make it VFR to any close airports, and probably did 7 or so big 360's while calling and waiting. Finally called ZAU and said FSS won't answer, I'm stuck, and need a clearance.

 

[dell30rb]

Is there a good graphic or something anyone can point to explaining how to talk to xxx radio, xxx center, flight service etc?

I have used 122.2 simplex for flight service and 122.0 simplex for flight watch with success, however this has always been from a fairly high altitude.

I remember very briefly my instructor showing me how to talk / listen over VORs but we never used it in practice.

 

[denverpilot]

Flight service never answers when I have a radio that I KNOW is working.

You've got to be kidding, right? Talked to 'em twice yesterday, just fine.

Are you saying that when you use the published Flight Service frequency for the airport you're over, they don't answer?

Or are you mixing up Flight Service and Flightwatch?

Flightwatch has AGL altitude limitations that limit their receiving ability, and there's a reason you have to tell them where you are -- they need to select the appropriate transmitter to reach you.

Both Denver Radio and Columbus Radio answered up within a few seconds both times I called them yesterday on the published frequencies for KAPA and KLBF. They don't answer as fast as a control facility because they're working a lot more receivers and transmitters but the Columbus guy replied with "Cessna 79M, stand by you're number two" within 15 seconds of my initial call-up yesterday.

They both offered up additional services other than what I called about and gave the usual "pilot reports are requested via Flightwatch" speech.

The only time I ever couldn't reach Denver Radio was when the Badger Mountain RCO had a bad receiver. I called on the ground and reported it and they said they'd log it so after three reports a tech would be dispatched and a NOTAM issued. I then e-mailed a local pilot's list and enlisted the help of locals to check it on their next flights. It was fixed in less than a week.

There's also the VORs that have voice capability that work well also, but the GPS-only drivers have a bit of a hard time utilizing those.

 

[denverpilot]

"Flight Watch may be unavailable below 5,000 feet AGL, depending on terrain and the distance from the nearest station."

Just as a follow-up to the above post.

Another "up the sleeve" trick I was taught... Call a nearby airport's Clearance Delivery frequency if all you're looking for is a pop-up.

They can usually figure out how to get you into the system and have in-lines to contact the nearby airspace controllers to work it out, get you a squawk and a frequency, etc.

 

[EdFred]

You've got to be kidding, right?

No, I am not.

Are you saying that when you use the published Flight Service frequency for the airport you're over, they don't answer?

I wasn't over an airport.

Or are you mixing up Flight Service and Flightwatch?

I know the difference between the two, and no, I am not mixing them up.

Flightwatch has AGL altitude limitations that limit their receiving ability, and there's a reason you have to tell them where you are -- they need to select the appropriate transmitter to reach you.

It wasn't flight watch.

IT....................WAS.........................FLIGHT..................SERVICE.

There's also the VORs that have voice capability that work well also, but the GPS-only drivers have a bit of a hard time utilizing those.

The last incident I was leaving PIA, and heading home, and while east of C09 but west of IKK the weather forecast was blown....again...and it was IMC almost to the ground in front of me. So I do a 180 to head back to C09 and get on the ground and file. IMC behind me, and south of me, and north of me. I'm able to remain VFR at about 2000' Looks like I gotta air file, so I dial in the closest VOR (IKK) listen for the ident, get it with appropriate volume, and call up on 122.1, "Kankakee Radio, Kankakee Radio, Comanche 727DS listening 111.6" Wait.....wait....wait....."Kankakee Radio, Kankakee Radio, Comanche 727DS listening Kankakee 111.6"..... wait..... wait........ wait......."Kankakee Radio, Kankakee Radio, Comanche 727DS listening 111.6" Nothing.

Dial in 122.05 and 113.2 and repeat the process for the Peotone VOR. Nothing. Repeat. Nothing. Repeat. Nothing.

Dial in the nearest FSS frequency on the 430, and do it again. Nothing. Twice more. Nothing.

Let's give 122.2 a try. 3 fails there as well.

I never dialed in 122.0 on this flight. I didn't need a weather advisory, I knew the weather was ****.

Finally I give up and call center, and tell them FSS isn't answering, and tell em what I need. Another 540° later I was cleared OXI and then direct home.

 

[Jaybird180]

Coming in late on this thread
All of PoA is beating up on Ed
Cause he can't see what he did that was bad
Good thing nothing happened or that woulda been sad

Ed's defending from an attack
What he should do is take a step back
Walk away from the computer and go ghost
Then after awhile come back and read the entire post

 

[jesse]

Coming in late on this thread
All of PoA is beating up on Ed
Cause he can't see what he did that was bad
Good thing nothing happened or that woulda been sad

Ed's defending from an attack
What he should do is take a step back
Walk away from the computer and go ghost
Then after awhile come back and read the entire post

Ed's no fool. Before he clicked the submit button, he fully knew what the tone of this thread was going to be.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Another "up the sleeve" trick I was taught... Call a nearby airport's Clearance Delivery frequency if all you're looking for is a pop-up.

Ummm... CD frequencies (at least, those that are tied to a controller at the same airport) are only supposed to be used on the ground... Right?

The "clearance delivery" frequencies listed for uncontrolled fields are usually just a remote transmitter to a TRACON or ARTCC and I think most or all of those are OK to use in the air as well.

 

[Jaybird180]

Why is CD being brought up, he was obviously VFR....Um...yeah, he was visual....yeah, I'm sure of it.

 

[dmccormack]

There are large expanses over northern PA, NY, WV, and NC where I've tried Flight Watch many times with no results.