Cirrus chutes down

looking forwad to hearing the details of while he pulled it
 
Will be taken to GXY and Beegles. If the insurance company totals it, look for usable avionics on ebay.
 
dennyleeb said:
looking forwad to hearing the details of while he pulled it
Click to expand...

Same here. That area is rough grasslands and a normal landing should have been possible... albeit probably with some nose gear damage.

It'd shake your teeth, but deploying the chute out there is really odd. Lots of open fields.

At the end of the day, glad the pilot's okay.
 
around 6am = still dark, maybe the pilot was concerned about hitting something on the way in ?
 
We'll see what they say. My hangar neighbor has an SR22 turbo, and I believe he actually has a good understanding of when to use the chute. I'm not convinced that many other Cirrus pilots do, however.
 
I used to live very near there when I lived in Douglas County which borders Elbert. There's a grass field over there to, not that he was anywhere near it because Elbert County is big. But, yes its pretty flat and just a bunch of grassland, but I don't want to second guess the guy.
 
Bottom line, he felt he needed it, he used it, no casualties = good job.
 
SCCutler said:
Bottom line, he felt he needed it, he used it, no casualties = good job.
Click to expand...
+1. I live in Elbert County and while there are flat areas it's not all that way, in fact the terrain is rolling in many places as I have found out while riding a bicycle. I think it probably looks flatter than it is from the air and seems flat in comparison with other areas in Colorado. I also agree with it being pretty dark at 0600. I have no problem with the guy pulling the chute.
 
Don't know exactly where he was, but I've sprayed and fertilized in that part of the world... If I was SOL, especially in the dark and had a chute, I'd pull.
 
Great point on the light. And still agreed... He's alive and in one piece, so the 'chute did it's job.
 
Another thing to consider with a Cirrus is the burn record. I haven't heard of one dropping in on a chute catching on fire, not the same record for forced landings.
 
The one that collided with the Pawnee towing a glider over Boulder burnt while under the 'chute for a number of minutes while various people filmed it from different angles. My hope has always been that the pilots were killed early-on in that fiasco by smoke inhalation or trauma from the impact itself. Being BBQed by one's own "safety" gear is not cool.
 
denverpilot said:
The one that collided with the Pawnee towing a glider over Boulder burnt while under the 'chute for a number of minutes while various people filmed it from different angles. My hope has always been that the pilots were killed early-on in that fiasco by smoke inhalation or trauma from the impact itself. Being BBQed by one's own "safety" gear is not cool.
Click to expand...


Yack! Not fun at all, though I was referencing the burn from the ground impact. If I wasn't unconscious in a burning plane under a chute, I can guarantee you I'd be going out the door. I'll take a header out over a fiery death any day.l...
 
denverpilot said:
The one that collided with the Pawnee towing a glider over Boulder burnt while under the 'chute for a number of minutes while various people filmed it from different angles. My hope has always been that the pilots were killed early-on in that fiasco by smoke inhalation or trauma from the impact itself. Being BBQed by one's own "safety" gear is not cool.
Click to expand...

That was one of the worst events I've every seen. Thinking of that slow trip down. I too hope they were out of it already.

Henning, I don't think the guy that lost an aileron in (I think) TX caught fire. The plane survived and flew again IIRC. Je was one of the first deployments. I do remember several deployed after the crash, probably due to fire.
 
SCCutler said:
Bottom line, he felt he needed it, he used it, no casualties = good job.
Click to expand...


It said he pulled the chute because he "began having problems with the aircraft". Would your opinion be different if those "airplane problems" were say, he learned that his airplane was being foreclosed upon?

Now, I'm not saying that is the case, but the lack of info sure can lead one to speculate..
 
I wasn't going to "go there", but it's certainly been seen before, and most insurance investigators figure it out if that's what was going on...

I always wondered if an insurance check was the reason some guy hand-propped his 182 at KAPA a few years ago and let it wander off across the ramp and an active runway, only to find a nice ditch to flip over in.

How many mechanics, helpers, and other live bodies are on KAPA virtually 24/7?! There's people everywhere, even in the middle of the night. Not as many, mind you... but not being able to find someone on KAPA is ... virtually impossible.

There's zero reason to be hand-propping something as big as an O-470 without help out there, ever. If it was just a lack of judgement, it was a doozie. Dumb loss of a perfectly good 182.

Insurance fraud is an excellent study in perceived cost/benefit for socio-economists. The people who think they can get away with it have an enormous incentive in their heads, to try it.
 
Everskyward said:
+1. I live in Elbert County and while there are flat areas it's not all that way, in fact the terrain is rolling in many places as I have found out while riding a bicycle. I think it probably looks flatter than it is from the air and seems flat in comparison with other areas in Colorado. I also agree with it being pretty dark at 0600. I have no problem with the guy pulling the chute.
Click to expand...

Closest airport is CO49. For today (only 2 days later, so pretty close) morning civil twilight is 6:38 and sunrise is 7:06. Since it happened around 6 AM (he was found at 6:45, still prior to sunrise) I think it's pretty safe to say that it was Dark. With a capital D.

And yes, even the "flat" parts of Colorado ain't flat.

And I've seen way too many folks who should have pulled the chute, and didn't.

So, I've gotta say, the pilot definitely did the right thing by pulling the handle... And it counts as a good landing! :yes:
 
denverpilot said:
The one that collided with the Pawnee towing a glider over Boulder burnt while under the 'chute for a number of minutes while various people filmed it from different angles. My hope has always been that the pilots were killed early-on in that fiasco by smoke inhalation or trauma from the impact itself. Being BBQed by one's own "safety" gear is not cool.
Click to expand...

Well, reading the factual report, one could conceivably guess that the Pawnee pilot was killed quickly - Sounds like he pretty much took a direct hit from the nose of the Cirrus.

The Cirrus pilots, unfortunately, at the very least lived long enough (and were conscious) to pull the red handle.

Henning said:
Yack! Not fun at all, though I was referencing the burn from the ground impact. If I wasn't unconscious in a burning plane under a chute, I can guarantee you I'd be going out the door. I'll take a header out over a fiery death any day.l...
Click to expand...

A lot of witnesses to that one said that's exactly what they did. The factual report does not specify if the bodies were found in the wreckage or not (including the piper pilot - it does say the Pawnee's seat and seat belt were both separated.)
 
Anthony said:
As you go east it gets very flat, but Elbert County's terrain varies.
Click to expand...

East/southeast, yeah, but not so much in the northeast. It's a heckuva lot flatter than the western part of the state - But I'd still not take my chances in the dark as hitting an uphill slope, even of the rolling variety in that part of the state, could really ruin your day.
 
This may be the ultimate expression of the CAPS' mission. For whatever reason, the pilot stopped piloting, but he had the presence of mind to pop the chute. Again, I say, successful result.
 
Everskyward said:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20110131X11636&key=1
Click to expand...

Wow.

Looks like the plane was a 2003, so one of the earliest Avidyne glass models. They have been known to have problems, but given the description of "accelerating" it sounds like he really was in a nose-low unusual attitude.

Also, no "blue button" in this case - It was recover, or use the red handle.

He's also probably lucky that the chute stayed attached, unless he pulled it in a heartbeat. They're not meant to deploy above ~135 KIAS IIRC, so if he was that nose low that there was no blue on the AI indication on the PFD, he'd have been accelerating at a pretty good rate. That said, I have heard that the CAPS/BRS will take a lot more abuse than it's rated for, but it certainly won't take anything you can dish out.

The BRS investigators determined that the Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) parachute assembly had separated from the airplane almost immediately after deployment.

Examination of the parachute revealed that the parachute separated from the airplane under extreme high loads. Both risers were separated from the parachute assembly. The parachute separated from the suspension lines. The ends of the suspension lines were broomstrawed.
Click to expand...

(NOTE: For clarity, I'll emphasize again that this link and accident report quote are not from the main accident we're discussing in this thread, where the parachute obviously remained attached.)
 
IIRC isn't pulling the chute the proper spin recovery technique per the POA for a Cirrus? Not saying he was in a spin, but it still sounds like he made the right decision.
 
First, he should have been well-versed enough in recovery from unusual attitudes as an instrument pilot or student to be able to recover. OTOH, once he determined that he wasn't able to do so, pulling the chute should be ones first response, once one at least attempts to ensure that the plane is within the operating range of the chute. If things are degrading rather than improving, despite ones best efforts, pull it ASAP, lest it be too late.
 
gprellwitz said:
First, he should have been well-versed enough in recovery from unusual attitudes as an instrument pilot or student to be able to recover. OTOH, once he determined that he wasn't able to do so, pulling the chute should be ones first response, once one at least attempts to ensure that the plane is within the operating range of the chute. If things are degrading rather than improving, despite ones best efforts, pull it ASAP, lest it be too late.
Click to expand...


It's dark, you're on approach, so you're already at relatively low altitude, you feel/hear the plane accelerating, you see a screen full of brown when physically you can't sense any disorientation, you don't really know how long you have till you hit the ground since you can't see it, "why doesn't this feel wrong, what's broke, my brain or my plane?" I can attest when things are going wrong, time dialates, when he was pulling that handle he had probably gone through enough thoughts that he was figuring 15 seconds had elapsed and he was about to hit the ground when it was actually only 1/2 a second.

He made the call to pull the chute, he pulled the chute, he walked away, good on him, end of story, insurance replaces hardward. THAT was what the BRS chute system is all about.
 
Henning said:
He made the call to pull the chute, he pulled the chute, he walked away, good on him, end of story, insurance replaces hardward. THAT was what the BRS chute system is all about.
Click to expand...

Yup - There are FAR more accidents where the chute should have been pulled and wasn't than there are accidents where the chute shouldn't have been pulled and was. Maybe the pilot can come by and tell us about what really happened - The report is going to skip over an awful lot of details from his story. None of the folks who should have pulled their chutes are around to talk about it.
 
gprellwitz said:
OTOH, once he determined that he wasn't able to do so, pulling the chute should be ones first response, once one at least attempts to ensure that the plane is within the operating range of the chute. If things are degrading rather than improving, despite ones best efforts, pull it ASAP, lest it be too late.
Click to expand...

Henning said:
It's dark, you're on approach, so you're already at relatively low altitude, you feel/hear the plane accelerating, you see a screen full of brown when physically you can't sense any disorientation, you don't really know how long you have till you hit the ground since you can't see it, "why doesn't this feel wrong, what's broke, my brain or my plane?" I can attest when things are going wrong, time dialates, when he was pulling that handle he had probably gone through enough thoughts that he was figuring 15 seconds had elapsed and he was about to hit the ground when it was actually only 1/2 a second.

He made the call to pull the chute, he pulled the chute, he walked away, good on him, end of story, insurance replaces hardward. THAT was what the BRS chute system is all about.
Click to expand...
I don't think we're in much disagreement here. And whether he had time to fully assess the situation and recover is dependent upon many factors. I'll concede that I may have been hasty to say he "should" have been able to recover.
 
gprellwitz said:
I don't think we're in much disagreement here. And whether he had time to fully assess the situation and recover is dependent upon many factors. I'll concede that I may have been hasty to say he "should" have been able to recover.
Click to expand...


Right, thing is, "he shouldn't have lost control" either, so the first thing the brain wants to do before recovery is figure out "What is wrong, why did I lose control" so it knows how to go about recovery. He's single pilot in training mode in the dark. There's a lot going on and very little time to review all the data. We still don't know for sure exactly "what went wrong" to get him into the situation he was in. Luckily, he didn't have to go down that path and had the presence of mind to realize it in time.

Either that or it was an insurance scam.:dunno::dunno::dunno:
 
Another thing to consider with a Cirrus is the burn record. I haven't heard of one dropping in on a chute catching on fire, not the same record for forced landings.
Click to expand...

Here is a video of a Cirrus crashing without the aid of it's chute in Phoenix on August 4th, a very sad event. WARNING: It's close-up and graphic.
I don't know how other types would have coped in the same circumstances, but the way the fuel bursts out of this Cirrus on impact with the ground (admittedly it was a severe impact) makes me nervous.
 
Last edited:
ChrisS said:
Here is a video of a Cirrus crashing without the aid of it's chute in Phoenix on August 4th. WARNING: It's close-up and graphic.
I don't know how other types would have coped in the same circumstances, but the way the fuel bursts out of this Cirrus on impact with the ground (admittedly it was a severe impact) makes me nervous.
Click to expand...
I don't think there is an airplane out there where you'd have survived that. That was a hell of a vertical impact - the fact there was flames isn't very surprising. I think about any airframe would have had similar fire - the difference with the Cirrus is that it's structure will burn after the initial explosion whereas the aluminum one is way more resistant.
 
jesse said:
I don't think there is an airplane out there where you'd have survived that. That was a hell of a vertical impact - the fact there was flames isn't very surprising. I think about any airframe would have had similar fire - the difference with the Cirrus is that it's structure will burn after the initial explosion whereas the aluminum one is way more resistant.
Click to expand...

Survive, no - But man, that think puked out ALL its fuel in a heartbeat. Composites tend to shatter in such a situation - A bladder will have plenty of give and may "pop", an aluminum tank will deform and may get breached, but that video, especially the frame before the fire, shows the wet wings just spewing ALL the fuel simultaneously, which is why you have the big explosion. I bet the fire was over quickly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top