Is it ever a good idea to sit on the runway after calling departure?

John Baker said:
I'm new to this, but my feeling is, if you are in the left seat, your driving the airplane. Unless you have traded off with your instructor, your the pilot, you make the decisions.
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The instructor is deemed to be PIC in a training situation like this, and has the authority to make the final decisions. However...
...I have told instructors to hold down the chatter when I'm in the airport environment. Leaving or approaching, the chatter should be at a bare minimum.
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...instructors are supposed to create "realistic distractions" to see how you deal with them, and extraneous chatter is one of those realistic distractions. The instructor's objective in that situation is to have you tell them to knock off the chatter.

Nevertheless, what the OP's instructor did was unsafe, not just a "realistic distraction." Stopping on the runway to brief the flight is simply not appropriate, as it puts you with your back to landing traffic. If this instructor is doing that in an effort to test the OP's judgement, I would put that in a class with having combat troops practice bleeding. The OP would be wise not to continue to participate in such ill-advised activity. Either a discussion with the instructor about this practice (or, if necessary, a change of instructors) seems warranted.

Ignore your instructor and continue your take off roll. If he says he has the airplane, repeat that back to him, hold both hands up, and let him do whatever he wants.
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That is one way of dealing with it the first time it happens, but there should not be a second.
 
silver-eagle said:
Maybe he gets paid by tach time. This gives him a chance to pad it. Don't do it where it puts you and everyone else in jeopardy.
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The tach would record the same time on the other side of the hold short line.
 
John Baker said:
Whoever is flying the airplane is the one who makes the calls. Ignore your instructor and continue your take off roll. If he says he has the airplane, repeat that back to him, hold both hands up, and let him do whatever he wants.
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And advise him the lesson has ended and he's now paying for the airplane.
 
roncachamp said:
The tach would record the same time on the other side of the hold short line.
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Not necessarily... tach time really only becomes noteworthy at full throttle or thereabouts. The hobbs ticks at an even rate after startup, whereas the tach timer varies with power. So it's been in my experience, anyway.
 
rottydaddy said:
Not necessarily... tach time really only becomes noteworthy at full throttle or thereabouts. The hobbs ticks at an even rate after startup, whereas the tach timer varies with power. So it's been in my experience, anyway.
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What power setting do you imagine was used during the instructor's pretakeoff dissertation while sitting on the runway as described in the OP? What power setting do you believe would have been used on the other side of the hold short line?
 
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rottydaddy said:
Not necessarily... tach time really only becomes noteworthy at full throttle or thereabouts. The hobbs ticks at an even rate after startup, whereas the tach timer varies with power. So it's been in my experience, anyway.
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Any time the engine is running, the tach is recording. Idle is idle, doesn't matter what side of the hold line you are on. But tach or Hobbs, doesn't really matter what side of the hold line you are on if you are just sitting there.
 
I got a commercial freight hauler reprimanded for doing just that. I videoed him chasing down my student- Cherokee 180 with a Chieftain just behind, both rolling out.

I tried talking to him, he blew it off. I wrote his boss (tail #) the pilot got madder. Finally sent the DVD to the FSDO. Pilot tried to blow off the FSDO, and it didn't go well.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Any time the engine is running, the tach is recording. Idle is idle, doesn't matter what side of the hold line you are on. But tach or Hobbs, doesn't really matter what side of the hold line you are on if you are just sitting there.
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Some electronic tachometers don't start recording tach time unless above a certain RPM - I have seen as high as 2000 listed as the limit.
 
EdFred said:
Some electronic tachometers don't start recording tach time unless above a certain RPM - I have seen as high as 2000 listed as the limit.
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True. My EI tach doesn't start recording until over 1200rpm.
 
EdFred said:
Some electronic tachometers don't start recording tach time unless above a certain RPM - I have seen as high as 2000 listed as the limit.
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PilotAlan said:
True. My EI tach doesn't start recording until over 1200rpm.
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Man, I want to work out a rental deal by tach hour on those planes. But I was speaking of traditional mechanical tachs.

Also, some hobbs meters are hooked to a micro switch that is driven either by the gear retraction mechanism or an air switch. Those would have the same end result.
 
Sticky1 said:
"Pray for Obama, Psalm 109:8" and the runway thing.....!
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"Praying for Obama" scares you??? :dunno:

Anyway, the only time I "hold" at an "uncontrolled" field is lining up pre-IFR departure or doing very short field t/o technique.

It takes a moment to make sure the HI lines up and the nosewheel isn't crooked.

VFR departure I'm rolling and then once aligned with the runway power is applied.

Some folks are so timid they feel "exposed" when sitting that 5 seconds for a Short Field or IFR departure.

We're not flying rockets -- there's a few seconds to get everything squared away.
 
Windrider said:
Perhaps this should go in the instructor thread, but it isn't really an instruction question.

I am certed single engine land with IFR rating but am working on becoming current again after a long hiatus. It is possible I am misremembering something, laboring under inaccurate perceptions, etc. I am flying out of a goog-sized non-towered airport working with an instructor pilot who is very good in my opinion, but who has twice given me a somewhat lengthy explanation (eg 5 minutes or so) of what he wanted me to do/gone over the salient points of some upcoming maneuver after the departure radio call has been made and the plane has been taxied onto the runway and lined up ready to go. Let me be very clear. We are NOT behind a hold short line, we are on the runway in takeoff position just prior to advancing throttle to max and rolling and have already told any traffic we are taking the active runway and departing. Perhaps complicating the matter is the fact that the airport does receive some commerical use and does have some quick-moving flights arrive without radio contact or with very minimal radio contact. I have also witnessed a regular inbound commercial flight "chase" a Cessna 172 down the runway a couple of times as it landed close enough behind the smaller plane that the 172 pilot had to hold up the nose and pour on the gas to make and take a taxiway to get out of the way.

I am certain runway sitting never happened when I was initially taking instruction years back; I am quite sure that I was told then to essentially stay off the runway until ready to go and not to delay after informing unicom I was departing. I can definitely say that I never taxied out and sat on a runway for several minutes like this in any of my solo or passenger-carrying flights after passing that all-important first checkride.

The instructor pilot can be autocratic (like all instructors ;) ), but I think now that it's happened twice I need at least to discuss with him the difficulties I have concentrating on whatever he is saying while giving myself a cricky neck looking around for inbound planes. It's a much better plan than waiting for a third time and either taxing off the runway or telling him to can it and taking off.:D I would appreciate posting on anything thought relevant to such a situation from other GA pilots.
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Remembering that I am more than a little abrasive with stupid instructors, I would have handled it in such a way that there would be no second violation.

The first time, I would have told the instructor that I'm going to take off or taxi back so he can continue to tell me something I probably already know, and let him choose which way to go. If he insisted we stay there, I would have set the parking brake and deplaned, allowing him to find a way to get the plane back to the ramp. I would have immediately gone to his boss and explained the situation, demanded I not be charged for any of the flight time up to that point, and either demanded another instructor, or found another one on my own.

The one thing I do not handle well at all is stupid instructors. From the "Slips are prohibited with full flaps in Cessna 172" CFIs to the "Lets get clearance into the Charlie" CFIs, I don't hold back.

I figure its my duty. These morons are having a negative affect on other pilots: They're spreading bad habits and beliefs. The only way to deal with them is to make them realize how stupid they're being.

edit: Did you know I had a CFI that insisted that my Cherokee's landing light was required equipment for day flight? Even showing him the relevant FAR didn't persuade him that he's wrong. "I was told otherwise" was all he'd say. That is the sign of a really, really dumb instructor, that can't take the regs and apply them unless they've been told something by someone they trust.
 
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silver-eagle said:
Maybe he gets paid by tach time. This gives him a chance to pad it.
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Analyze this: maybe after so many years, the instructor has reached a point where he's losing his nerve providing dual to other pilots that his last minute briefings are really a chance for him to calm himself on some sub-concious level. The dude just may need to rotate out for some R&R.
 
Ghery said:
How do you judge 3000 feet from the air?
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A runway used by scheduled commercial traffic will have specific visual cues such as lighting, painted markings, etc.

Another way to ask your question is how do you know you landed in the first 3rd of the rwy?
 
dmccormack said:
"Praying for Obama" scares you??? :dunno:
.
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The Psalm reference that goes with it means that whoever is saying it is actually praying for Obama's death. Pretty sick if you ask me.


The complete quote
8Let his days be few;
Let another take his office.
9Let his children be fatherless
And his wife a widow.
10Let his children wander about and beg;
And let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes.
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One of my personal rules has been to hold short of non-towered runways. Never enter the runway unless ready for immediate departure.

In the situation presented by the OP, I suggest he inform his instructor that to position and hold while the instructor provides last minute briefing makes the OP feel very uncomfortable. Have this talk before entering the cockpit prior to engine start.

If the instructor says anything which appears to try to diminish the risk, simply say you will not loiter on the rwy. Taxi forward to clear the runway. It boils down to PIC responsibility.

A examiner once told me, "Do not let anyone do anything at anytime which will jeopardize the safety of your flight." THAT is PIC responsibility.
 
dmccormack said:
Some folks are so timid they feel "exposed" when sitting that 5 seconds for a Short Field or IFR departure.

We're not flying rockets -- there's a few seconds to get everything squared away.
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Would what you say be different in the instance of a BO suddenly appearing on very short final after you had visually cleared the runway and then seeing it safe, you positioned for departure? That happened to me at a non-towered field.

Further, said BO had spiriled down from above the mid-point of the rwy and he demanded he would be landing. I agree with what Tony said, runways are like railroad tracks.

While those type of things are rare, it only takes one and it's the one you don't see which gets you. Being in position is increased risk.
 
ScottM said:
The Psalm reference that goes with it means that whoever is saying it is actually praying for Obama's death. Pretty sick if you ask me.


The complete quote
8Let his days be few;
Let another take his office.
9Let his children be fatherless
And his wife a widow.
10Let his children wander about and beg;
And let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes.
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The complete quote for 109:8 is "Let his days be few; Let another take his office."

It means that whoever is saying it is actually praying for Obama to be limited to a single term as President, nothing more.
 
ScottM said:
The Psalm reference that goes with it means that whoever is saying it is actually praying for Obama's death. Pretty sick if you ask me.


The complete quote
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I hadn't looked it up, but that is pretty bad to be posting no matter hhow you feel about the job he's doing.
 
ScottM said:
The Psalm reference that goes with it means that whoever is saying it is actually praying for Obama's death. Pretty sick if you ask me.
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Maybe, if you take that one verse with the rest of the verses in the section. But if you take it as a stand alone, especially if you look at other versions of the verse, it can mean what Steven says it means to him in post 61.

People tend to pick and choose verses to mean what they want them to mean despite of context anyway, so in this case, it isn't that big a deal to me.
 
EppyGA said:
I hadn't looked it up, but that is pretty bad to be posting no matter hhow you feel about the job he's doing.
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It isn't a post. It is a signature line. And you (someone?) have to go look it up to even know what it means.
 
ScottM said:
The Psalm reference that goes with it means that whoever is saying it is actually praying for Obama's death. Pretty sick if you ask me.


The complete quote
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If you're going to provide the "complete" quote, reference the entire Psalm.

Anyway, "Praying for Obama" is not scary and shouldn't be.
 
Richard said:
Would what you say be different in the instance of a BO suddenly appearing on very short final after you had visually cleared the runway and then seeing it safe, you positioned for departure? That happened to me at a non-towered field.

Further, said BO had spiriled down from above the mid-point of the rwy and he demanded he would be landing. I agree with what Tony said, runways are like railroad tracks.

While those type of things are rare, it only takes one and it's the one you don't see which gets you. Being in position is increased risk.
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Look, if a "Bo" pops up on you in 5 seconds, the same would have happened if you did a rolling start.

Any scenario can be stretched to disaster.
 
dmccormack said:
If you're going to provide the "complete" quote, reference the entire Psalm.

Anyway, "Praying for Obama" is not scary and shouldn't be.
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And if we continue down this road, this thread will end up closed or moved to Spin Zone.
 
SkyHog said:
The one thing I do not handle well at all is stupid instructors. From the "Slips are prohibited with full flaps in Cessna 172" CFIs to the "Lets get clearance into the Charlie" CFIs, I don't hold back.
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Interesting. My long ago former bomber command pilot/instructor pilot and then civvie instructor, when I told him about the severe slip at the airport that asked me to expedite, asked me if I'd had flaps down. I hadn't. He told me to remember flaps were not the same as spoilers and cautioned me that a slip as severe as I described could damage the airplane should I have on full flaps.

I don't want to start a disagreement with you, but after reading the above I am curious. Are you just saying no reg prohibits slipping with full flaps? Or maybe that you'd slip with full flaps, but not necessarily a full (severe) slip with full flaps? Or?
 
Windrider said:
Interesting. My long ago former bomber command pilot/instructor pilot and then civvie instructor, when I told him about the severe slip at the airport that asked me to expedite, asked me if I'd had flaps down. I hadn't. He told me to remember flaps were not the same as spoilers and cautioned me that a slip as severe as I described could damage the airplane should I have on full flaps.

I don't want to start a disagreement with you, but after reading the above I am curious. Are you just saying no reg prohibits slipping with full flaps? Or maybe that you'd slip with full flaps, but not necessarily a full (severe) slip with full flaps? Or?
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Lest I be a hypocrite, I should say that you should verify what I tell you before you take it as gospel (which instructors should do before they tell you that).

Slipping does not exert any additional force against the flaps. The reason that some Cessnas say to avoid it is because it causes a buffet that may confuse pilots that a stall is imminent. It doesn't cause any damage to the plane, and it won't cause the plane to stall without warning. The buffet is actually an oscillation that is quite different from a buffet, and you should be able to tell the difference if you felt it.

What some instructors see is the "Avoid Stalls with Full Flaps" warning placard on Cessna 172s and they assume that means they are not allowed. This is not true in all but one year of 172 that I'm aware of, and even that one has the placard superseded if I'm not mistaken.

There is 0 danger with slipping with full flaps on a Cessna 172, and your instructor was wrong in telling you otherwise.
 
dmccormack said:
Look, if a "Bo" pops up on you in 5 seconds, the same would have happened if you did a rolling start.

Any scenario can be stretched to disaster.
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I agree. I admit it was a stretch of my example to counter what you were saying. And I agree that any scenario can be stretched to disaster. So, I guess I'm missing something; how can lingering on the runway be an example of timidity and feeling "exposed" but not an example of increased risk?
 
Richard said:
I agree. I admit it was a stretch of my example to counter what you were saying. And I agree that any scenario can be stretched to disaster. So, I guess I'm missing something; how can lingering on the runway be an example of timidity and feeling "exposed" but not an example of increased risk?
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I'm not advocating "lingering," which I would define as non-chalant moseying, lack of alacrity, and general slothfulness.

I'm merely suggesting that pulling out, rolling to a stop, rolling forward just enough to straighten the nose wheel, applying brakes and then adding power, waiting for max RPM, then releasing brakes doesn't constitute "lingering."

Neither does coming to a full stop on runway centerline and ensuring the Heading indicator is where it should be.
 
Personal preference only, every preflight item that you can do on the numbers, you can do on the broken side of the hold short line. At very busy GA strips, soemone taxis right up to the hold short the moment you hed for the numbers. Then you have no alternative to go back if some maroon does something to make you wish you weren't there.....
 
Windrider said:
Interesting. My long ago former bomber command pilot/instructor pilot and then civvie instructor, when I told him about the severe slip at the airport that asked me to expedite, asked me if I'd had flaps down. I hadn't. He told me to remember flaps were not the same as spoilers and cautioned me that a slip as severe as I described could damage the airplane should I have on full flaps.
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Perhaps that was true on the bombers he flew, but not any light single of which I am aware.

Are you just saying no reg prohibits slipping with full flaps?
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The only applicable reg would be 91.9(a) regarding compliance with the aircraft's placard/flight manual limitations, and as I said, I am not aware of any light single which has a limitation prohibiting slipping with flaps of any amount, including fully extended.

Or maybe that you'd slip with full flaps, but not necessarily a full (severe) slip with full flaps? Or?
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I use full flaps on all landings in light planes unless conditions dictate otherwise, and when a slip is needed with full flaps, I'll slip as much as needed including the maximum slip possible.
 
Ron Levy said:
I use full flaps on all landings in light planes unless conditions dictate otherwise, and when a slip is needed with full flaps, I'll slip as much as needed including the maximum slip possible.
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Right -- this lesson came home during my comm training: "Why are you slipping with power and partial flaps???"


Duh... :rolleyes2:
 
I believe I'm missing something here. I've been thinking of it as a situation in which you need to get down, you already have on full flaps which are not doing it, and so you add in the slip to lose altitude rather than going around for some reason. The sort of situation that isn't a great idea but becomes necessary at some point for some reason. Reading the last couple of posts it sounds more like making the decision to use both full flaps and a severe slip and then carrying that out, as a type of standard procedure. But the former bomber pilot was right about one thing for certain --flaps and spoilers are not the same thing. Spoilers help you lose altitude. Flaps essentially help you fly slower, they provide a change in lift. To me, a severe slip has one purpose --to lose a great deal of altitude quickly-- so why would you want to use something lift-producing with a severe slip?
 
Windrider said:
To me, a severe slip has one purpose --to lose a great deal of altitude quickly-- so why would you want to use something lift-producing with a severe slip?
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Because at full flaps, they produce a WHOLE lot more drag than they do lift.

Also, there are TWO reasons to slip. One as a descent mechanism and the other is runway alignment mechanism. How severe the slip is in a crosswind is dependent upon how much crosswind there is.
 
True, I should have specified forward or side slip.
 
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