Preheat or not? First frost last night.

Rob Schaffer

Rob Schaffer

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Nov 27, 2007
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Green Lane, PA
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CLR2TKF
Scenerio:
Plane is flown weekly, but was last flown 7 days ago. Temps have been in the 40's with rain the past three days, low-mid 30's at night, and now last night we had our first frost. Enough to scrape the windows on the car, but not to make a heavy crunch when you walk on the grass. Today's supposed to be sunny and 54* by 3pm. Plane is tied down outside, and will be in the sun all day.

I'm planning on flying today at 4pm with a freind who is in from out of town.

Would you recommend I preheat the plane with a hot-air preheater? I'm going to put it in the car just in case, and see if I can find one of those small camping propane tanks at lunch today.
 
Simply and in a word: no

At 50+ degrees the engine will be fine. What oil is being used?
 
Based on the temp and when your flying, I don't think you will need to. However, preheating is never bad regardless. Warm oil is always better then cold oil!

My rule of thumb is anything under 40 degrees, I preheat.

Your mileage may vary!
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Scenerio:
Plane is flown weekly, but was last flown 7 days ago. Temps have been in the 40's with rain the past three days, low-mid 30's at night, and now last night we had our first frost. Enough to scrape the windows on the car, but not to make a heavy crunch when you walk on the grass. Today's supposed to be sunny and 54* by 3pm. Plane is tied down outside, and will be in the sun all day.

I'm planning on flying today at 4pm with a freind who is in from out of town.

Would you recommend I preheat the plane with a hot-air preheater? I'm going to put it in the car just in case, and see if I can find one of those small camping propane tanks at lunch today.
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fwiw - I probably wouldn't. However, go ahead. It cannot hurt.
It's your airplane, right?
 
What determines preheat is the temperature when you start, and also if the temperature has been significantly colder earlier for the plane to have cold soaked. So for example on Thursday night I had my plane plugged in overnight so that it would be warm on Friday morning when I (tried to) take off. Then at my destination I had it plugged in so it was warm when I (successfully) took off the next day. In both cases, temps were in the low 30s/high 20s.

If it's 54 this afternoon (and will therefore have been sitting in the sun all day) I wouldn't bother. If it was first thing in the morning after last night being in the mid 20s, I would.

It would be best to look into getting one of the oil and cylinder electric pre-heaters, assuming that you can plug it in on the ramp at LOM.
 
Thanks guys. I have a TANIS heater system, but no outlet nearby for me to plug into.

We also have a SureFire propane toolbox type heater, which I can power the fan from my car, and warm the engine. I picked up camp size propane tanks on the way to work this morning, so now I am set for those early morning flights.

I figured I would be alright by this afternoon, but figured it's always best to ask. This is my first winter in the partnership, and 40 deg seems to be the recommended temperature from all that I have discussed and read.

Thanks!

..... So Ted, what's the story with 'tried' and 'sucessfully' taking off?
 
I would see if there's some way to get extension cords out to the plane for the Tanis heater to plug the thing in when you know you're going to take it flying on cold days. The problem with the propane heaters is that there's a lot of metal and oil you're trying to heat up there, and it'll be harder for the propane heaters to especially get the oil up to temp. Plus if you plug it in, when you're ready to fly you just unplug it and you're good to go. With the propane heaters you have to sit around for however long, no good.

As to the story - I changed the starter on the right engine last week after it had started to die a slow on me while in Maine (would cold start, just wouldn't hot start). Friday morning I loaded up the Aztec, hopped in, primed the left engine, hit the starter on it and heard it spin up without the engine turning over. Great, the bendix isn't popping out to engage the starter ring gear. Go pull the cowling off and find the starter laying on top of the exhaust. Oh, yeah, that'll do it. The nose housing had broken. New nose housing, should be good to go. Wait, there's a hard spot in the starter when turning it. Oh, the bendix gear is broken, that's why the nose housing broke. New gears, back together, good to go, on my way. :)
 
My primary rule of thumb for preheating is whether or not the oil "flows" on the dipstick. If it flows there, it's probably good to move through the engine at startup.

David
 
That Tanis system is the best thing since sliced bread. We just paid nearly an AMU to get one installed, but well worth it. Your aircraft needs to be in a situation where it can be plugged in. You'll fly more.
 
Only problem with that tip is that when you get to the airplane ready to fly and decide the oil is too thick and requires a pre-heat, you then have to wait however long to preheat it.

Really, the thing to do is to just figure out a way to plug in the plane. :)
 
You don't want it plugged in continually if you aren't flying at least once a week, at least according to the Tanis people. I can have the guys on the flight line plug mine in the night before, which is what I plan to do.
 
Rob its goning to be 58* by noon today so I'd say your not really going to need a pre heat today.
 
I flew the Chief this AM. Very VFR everywhere -- except KFWQ, where we had FZFG -- "Freezing Fog"

When I arrived the airplane had a slight coating of frost. Around sunrise the fog rolled in and soon it looked like a magnet andthe ice was metal filings. It took 1 1/2 hours of sitting in the sun to melt it all off.

I preheated with an electric heater plgged into the FBO building. My super-duper self-contained heater worked Great! Until the dryer tubing started to melt. :frown3:

So I'll replace that tubing and try, try again!
 
dmccormack said:
My super-duper self-contained heater worked Great! Until the dryer tubing started to melt. :frown3:
So I'll replace that tubing and try, try again!
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Love the super-duper heater! I use the flexible metel dryer vent hose and that works just dandy! Available at any Walmart Aviation stores!:rofl::rofl:
 
I have the red dragon I purchased last year.... I would like to find a small propane tank for it, the grill size is to big and a hand held bottle is way to small.

I guess I'll have to add a pre heat package since the bird came from texas and has nothing on it. I may as well start reading up on the Tanis product line.
 
So far so good with ours, although this will be its first winter. I just wish we'd put it on years ago. I've been using big space heaters to do the preheat, and the wait was kind of miserable. It will be nice to just show up and have the aircraft ready for preflight. I'll fly more, especially because I can fly the deep cold clear air we get.
 
I don't have access to a plug anywhere nearby, so I'm left with $35 / preheat from the FBO, or I can use the colman LP propane tanks for 2.75 a piece from Walmart and the SureFire heater. Picked up a pack of 2, 16oz canister's yesterday for just under $6. :D

I asked the FBO yesterday if there was a way I could run an extension from the hangars up behind me (I'd need 150 ft of heavy extension cord), but they said no, they don't have outside outlets available for use, even for a charged fee. They said just give them a call 45 minutes ahead of time and they would preheat using their system,... :rolleyes:
 
Rob Schaffer said:
I don't have access to a plug anywhere nearby, so I'm left with $35 / preheat from the FBO, or I can use the colman LP propane tanks for 2.75 a piece from Walmart and the SureFire heater. Picked up a pack of 2, 16oz canister's yesterday for just under $6. :D

I asked the FBO yesterday if there was a way I could run an extension from the hangars up behind me (I'd need 150 ft of heavy extension cord), but they said no, they don't have outside outlets available for use, even for a charged fee. They said just give them a call 45 minutes ahead of time and they would preheat using their system,... :rolleyes:
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Wow...

Fly out to VVS -- they charge $5 for a preheat!

Oh wait...
 
I'm perfectly happy at Wings, and the line staff has been great. We have the tool box SureFire heater, and I'll be happy using that while I preflight. I may still have a deep cycle marine battery in my garage, if I do, I'll charge that up good and leave it in my field box, so I can power the blower fan from that, rather than parking the car under the wing.
 
At $35 a pop I'd be looking for new accommodations. I moved my airplane away from an airport that charged $20 for a preheat to one that didn't charge me at all.
 
i just listed their price for a comparison,.. I don't need them to preheat, as we have our own preheater,...
 
GMascelli said:
I have the red dragon I purchased last year.... I would like to find a small propane tank for it, the grill size is to big and a hand held bottle is way to small.

I guess I'll have to add a pre heat package since the bird came from texas and has nothing on it. I may as well start reading up on the Tanis product line.
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I've seen 10lb tanks at Home Depot and Lowes, instead of the 20lb
tanks normally in grills (and supplied with the Red Dragon)
 
steingar said:
At $35 a pop I'd be looking for new accommodations. I moved my airplane away from an airport that charged $20 for a preheat to one that didn't charge me at all.
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Then don't come to KBED (it was $50 the last time I did it before 2001).
 
The problem is that in general you don't have two nearby airports to choose from, so it's pick one or else go way out of your way. If you have options, great. I know in my case I have things I don't like about my local airport, but moving would turn my 10-15 minute drive into a 45+ minute drive to get to the plane, plus then I wouldn't have an ILS at my home drome. No thanks, I'll accept being pretty well stuck with this place until I can park my plane in my back yard.

Gary, I'd look into the Reiff over the Tanis. The Tanis heater plugs into the CHT probes. The Reiff has little heat elements that go around the cylinder bases. As I recall, your plane has an engine monitor already, so you'll be better off getting the Reiff system.
 
Keep a close eye on those preheaters. I saw a toolbox propane preheater burst into flames under the cowl of a 182.

The only damage was Mike's foot from kicking the toolbox into the middle of the taxiway.

My former airport (60M - Spencer MA) has a Red Dragon on an old wheelbarrow frame. No charge, assuming there's propane in the tank.
 
Gary said:
:D Isn't Quakertown closer? New runway, nice people, always have company to fly with on Sunday mornings, free preheater. :D

Gary
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and probably cheaper fuel too..... :) Flew over last night about 4:15pm, on my way to allentown. Looks like they are still getting ready to pave the ruwnay. Pennridge looks nice now that it is done. I have to go land there and put some new tire marks on their numbers :cornut:
 
Rob Schaffer said:
. Looks like they are still getting ready to pave the ruwnay. :cornut:
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Well... we will see. The Airport Authority is still sticking to a November 20 completion date. From what I can see, that's doable - IF - no glitches crop up!

Gary
 
Bob Noel said:
I've seen 10lb tanks at Home Depot and Lowes, instead of the 20lb
tanks normally in grills (and supplied with the Red Dragon)
Click to expand...

Propane in the tank is a liquid. It evaporates in the tank and leaves as vapor. This process absorbs heat, and the proof shows up as frost on the tank. A cold tank soon delivers less and less propane, since its vapor pressure falls as it gets colder. A small tank cools off a lot faster than a large one, so the small tank may be a waste of time and money. We starting with cold weather and a cold tank to begin with, right?

We run Aeroshell 15W50 year-round in seven Lycs and start them at freezing or below rather often in the winter. The engines reach TBO and are still strong, no metal, good compression. The trick is to not run them too fast (not over 1000 RPM) until they've warmed up, and watch that oil pressure gauge.

Dan
 
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Bob Noel said:
I've seen 10lb tanks at Home Depot and Lowes, instead of the 20lb tanks normally in grills (and supplied with the Red Dragon)
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Bob,

Thanks for the heads up. Since my lovely Bride will have me at both locations looking over paint colors for the spare bedroom I'm sure I can sneak away long enough to check out propane tanks. Yeah....that works.

Ted DuPuis said:
Gary, I'd look into the Reiff over the Tanis. The Tanis heater plugs into the CHT probes. The Reiff has little heat elements that go around the cylinder bases. As I recall, your plane has an engine monitor already, so you'll be better off getting the Reiff system.
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Yep, I have the CHT probes in place for the JPI monitor. I noticed Reiff had the rings and the oil pad combo. I'll pick up a set for the Sundowner, maybe the turbo model and install over my annual next month. Now I'll need to purchase a looooooong extension cord.
 
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I have successfully used a 5lb propane tank (sitting outside on a slab of ice) to supply fuel to a 18k btu heater on many a 20 below zero(F) night. A 10lb'er is not going to have a problem supplying fuel to a Red Dragon type pre-heater.

Tim

Dan Thomas said:
Propane in the tank is a liquid. It evaporates in the tank and leaves as vapor. This process absorbs heat, and the proof shows up as frost on the tank. A cold tank soon delivers less and less propane, since its vapor pressure falls as it gets colder. A small tank cools off a lot faster than a large one, so the small tank may be a waste of time and money. We starting with cold weather and a cold tank to begin with, right?

We run Aeroshell 15W50 year-round in seven Lycs and start them at freezing or below rather often in the winter. The engines reach TBO and are still strong, no metal, good compression. The trick is to not run them too fast (not over 1000 RPM) until they've warmed up, and watch that oil pressure gauge.

Dan
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steingar said:
Any other airports in your area?
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There are a few but frankley none offer the service and good nature as the folks at wings. DYL is eh and their prices are pretty high and the staff IMHO isn't very welcoming. UKT is better than DYL IMHO but fuel and tiedowns are more expensive. But they have a great group of guys there and good Mx.

Problem here is Michael we live in a metro area and things aren't cheap. The guys at wings will bend over backwards to help you as will the owner of the FBO who is as generous as they come. I can't begin to tell you the support he gives to the FlyBQ.

Rob ask Gary Shelby what type of propane heater he has. It works well and he has it rigged up great. It won't take up much room in the back of your vehicle.
 
It's also a general problem with outside tie-downs vs. hangars. It's a lot more common to be able to get electricity in a hangar than with an outdoor tie-down. Problem gets back to metropolitan area and things become more expensive fast, if you can even get a hangar in the first place.
 
Makes sense. Things are a bit different in the little one-horse town in which I reside. Being in a hangar does make these things easier, though it does double fixed costs.
 
May double it initially, but in the long run probably saves money, especially on the paint job.
 
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