Considering career as pilot

[bryced1]

Hello all, I am 20 years old and currently persuing a history degree at UVA. I am having doubts as to what ill be able to do with this degree that I will enjoy and have been considering other career options and I have always had a desire to become a pilot.

Ive been looking at a flight school near my home, specifically at the Professional Pilot Course they offer (HERE) and What kind of a job could I begin at with this? Would there be a problem with me not having an aerospace degree?



Thank you for your time
Bryce

 

[SCCutler]

What a challenge!

First and foremost, DO NOT fall into the trap of paying in advance to any great degree for flight training; there are many examples of flight schools failing with the prepaid portions of their students' training gone forever.

If you have the fire to be a professional pilot, well, it can certainly be done, but you will have to accept being poor and underappreciated for a while; you're the right age to do it, though!


There are a number of pro pilots here in various fields of aviation, so I'll let them chime in on the subject with greater specificity. Good luck!

 

[steingar]

Do not. Pilots are paid poorly these days, in my opinion. I've had several in my classes who have quit from being professional pilots and switched to other fields. They say it is really bad.

 

[wabower]

You're in one of the top schools in the country. Don't screw it up by going to some trade school. If it's not history, find something else you like and get a quality education where you are, many other opportunities are available. Talk to a counselor or other professionals there, but don't short-change yourself now. Higher education is supposed to be something in which you invest some money to learn enough about your chosen field that you can reasonably expect to make a decent living from the education received.

Learning to fly is a two-bit fall-down 3-month deal that any eighth grader could master if they lowered the age. The yahoo's on that website would be a little more credibile if they mastered the language on their home page.

 

[dmccormack]

If you master history, you can read, you can write, you can reason, and you can travel through time and space.

Those skills are hard to find anywhere, and don't believe the naysayers who say a history degree isn't worth anything.

Best option? Go to law school and buy your own airplane and fly whenever you want.

 

[poadeleted20]

Anybody know what one can do with a BA in history compared to what one can do with a CFI? My experience suggests that graduate school of some sort (law degree, masters/PhD, etc) is going to be necessary for someone with that BA degree to do much of anything outside flipping burgers, and being able to earn a few bucks instructing nights and weekends could help pay for grad school. But I would not recommend dropping out of college to pursue that pilot program -- a college degree is costly, but it's also priceless in life.

 

[brcase]

Finish your degree in anything you have any interest in. My airline pilot friends advice has been to get a 4 year degree in anything. Then proceed to get the flying qualifcations. IF money and time allow you could start getting with you private pilot certificate (and perhaps even other ratings) even before finish college, just don't let it get in the way of your degree.

I will second the opinion that you have really love flying to do it for living. Because few people do it for the money. Many McDonalds employees make more than many of the co-pilots on a lot of regional airlines. I am told it does get better as you get some senority but you have spend your time on the bottom of the pay scale to get there.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[dmccormack]

Anybody know what one can do with a BA in history compared to what one can do with a CFI? My experience suggests that graduate school of some sort (law degree, masters/PhD, etc) is going to be necessary for someone with that BA degree to do much of anything outside flipping burgers, and being able to earn a few bucks instructing nights and weekends could help pay for grad school. But I would not recommend dropping out of college to pursue that pilot program -- a college degree is costly, but it's also priceless in life.

Sorry, Ron, you're merely rehashing OWT.

I have had a very successful career as a Senior Engineer / Program Manager for years now.

My degree?

A BA in History, with a minor in Political Philosophy.

 

[Everskyward]

Finish your degree in anything you have any interest in. My airline pilot friends advice has been to get a 4 year degree in anything. Then proceed to get the flying qualifcations. IF money and time allow you could start getting with you private pilot certificate (and perhaps even other ratings) even before finish college, just don't let it get in the way of your degree.

+1 on this advice. You didn't say how close you are to getting your degree but I would definitely not leave the university to go to a flight school. Brian is correct in saying that a degree is important in aviation but unlike many other professions it doesn't matter what it is in. My situation was similar to yours. When I had about a year left of college I decided that my major wasn't really what I wanted to do but I finished up anyway. I also got my private during this time although I didn't think I would ever make flying my career. However it ended up that way. I would never go out and try to talk someone into an aviation career because it is so uncertain and there are a lot of dues to pay. However, I won't discourage anyone who wants to try either. You are rolling the dice, but you are rolling them in any other field too.

 

[gismo]

Sorry, Ron, you're merely rehashing OWT.

I have had a very successful career as a Senior Engineer / Program Manager for years now.

My degree?

A BA in History, with a minor in Political Philosophy.

That matches what I've experienced as well. Since many undergraduate programs teach very little that's useful in many entry level jobs outside of teaching and engineering it seems that a lot of companies consider almost any 4 year degree to be sufficient proof that an applicant can be taught what's necessary. And that's often all they really care about education wise.

 

[Richard]

Flying is an addiction and every pilot is looking for a way to pay for the habit. I'm coming to doubt ever more that flying for a living is a means to a living.

 

[dmccormack]

That matches what I've experienced as well. Since many undergraduate programs teach very little that's useful in many entry level jobs outside of teaching and engineering it seems that a lot of companies consider almost any 4 year degree to be sufficient proof that an applicant can be taught what's necessary. And that's often all they really care about education wise.

Precisely right.

 

[TMetzinger]

Precisely right.

Exactly. What you get an undergraduate degree in is less important than completing the degree. If you want to be a doctor or a lawyer, you'll need to go to the graduate schools. If you want to be a professor, you'll need to climb that ladder. But for engineering, management, most other fields, if you have a passion and an aptitude, a good employer will help you get whatever advanced/specialized training you need, often fully paying for it.

I echo the other advice here to complete your degree where you are - and then pursuing flight training. If you can pass a military flight phyisical you might find that an army/navy/airforce/marines/coast guard career may be interesting. You'll get taught to fly (and taught well), you'll get exposed to TONS of different things via collateral duties, and if you work at it you'll get lessons in leadership and things that really matter you won't find anywhere else. You'll also get paid more than a starting out airline pilot.

If you decide upon graduation that you want the airline flying career in spite of it's drawbacks, you can pick up the necessary flying certificates in a year of dedicated work, or a couple years of doing it outside your regular job - our own Ted DuPuis went from 0 to CFI in a flash, all while holding down a responsible full time job.

Unless you're unusually driven, it's not at all uncommon to change your mind on "what you want to be when you grow up" many times in your twenties, and then again in mid life. Some of the best aviators I know are those who are doing it as their "middle career" in their 40s-60s.

Best of luck, whatever you choose.

 

[Ted]

...Ted DuPuis went from 0 to CFI in a flash, all while holding down a responsible full time job.

Well, let's remember a few points in this. First off, I had some great opportunities in terms of affordable aircraft to use and local people who helped me along. Plus, let's not forget the ridiculous amount of money that 480 hours of flying in 2 years (about 1/3 of which is in my Aztec) has cost, which can be prohibitive to some. And Tony will tell you I'm a slacker - I had over 400 hours by the time I got my CFI, and still haven't gotten my CFII or MEI yet.

I think Tony or Brent have done a far more impressive job in terms of lots of hours, ratings, and experience accumulated in a short period of time, and probably have spent less money on it.

As to pursuing a career as a pilot - I have no experience there, but I would recommend getting your 4-year degree, and it probably makes more sense to pursue a more lucrative career in another field and then keep flying as a hobby if you want to have any sort of money. The people I know who own the nicest aircraft are not professional pilots, that's for sure. While a lot of places won't care what you get it in just that you have it, all the engineers at my company have at least a bachelor's degree in some form of engineering (many have or are working on a master's), and I'll leave my thoughts at that.

 

[dmccormack]

FWIW, most managers in engineering firms I've worked for (Martin-Marietta, Pratt & Whitney, CSC) have some sort of liberal arts background.

 

[Ted]

FWIW, most managers in engineering firms I've worked for (Martin-Marietta, Pratt & Whitney, CSC) have some sort of liberal arts background.

True, most engineers don't make good managers. Of course, most managers of engineering firms with such backgrounds are referred to as the pointy-haired boss, usually with good reason.

 

[dmccormack]

True, most engineers don't make good managers. Of course, most managers of engineering firms with such backgrounds are referred to as the pointy-haired boss, usually with good reason.

My current boss is a J.D., 24 year FBI Special Agent Veteran.

He's the best boss I've ever had.

The worst managers I've ever had have been engineers -- every problem is over-analyzed, the customer's problems are not our concern, and the world should bow at our genius.

 

[Ted]

And if you actually understood the reference, you'd see why that falls in line with what you said. I even said most engineers don't make good managers.

 

[dmccormack]

And if you actually understood the reference, you'd see why that falls in line with what you said. I even said most engineers don't make good managers.

I read Dilbert until it depresses me. Then I take a break.

(In my last job Dilbert and Office Space became surreal -- I couldn't read or watch because each was so true it wasn't funny anymore -- just sad).

No one loves every manager every day -- (if so, s/he isn't doing a good job). But the better managers know how to communicate, know how to listen, how and when NOT to listen, and how to balance the demands of the company with the needs of his/her people.

None are perfect, but I think a humanities background helps folks so educated to open up thinking to how and why people are different, how they are motivated, and how the long term good can be short term painful.

 

[RotorAndWing]

And if you actually understood the reference, you'd see why that falls in line with what you said. I even said most engineers don't make good managers.

Not as bad as having a retired military O-3 as a manager. No wonder why the military would never promote them.

 

[taters]

I would get a degree in something other than aviation, get all the ratings. Then teach as a CFI..you will meet all kinds of people and many career paths and opportunities will present themselves to you. Take a good look around... there are tons of pilot jobs other than the regional airlines(that pay WAY better too). ..Good luck to you..remember commiting to a career as a professional pilot is a major commitment and requires a highly focused desire to succeed. Take your time and look at all options. There is no other job I could ever imagine doing than flying for a living.

 

[Anthony]

I think a Liberal Arts degrees combined with either a technical, business or other discipline Master's Degree is a fine combination. I'm a bit biased as that's the route I took, but I find it makes better managers. Being able to read, analyze, write and work with others is just as important if not more as the technical aspects of the job.

 

[ScottM]

Sorry, Ron, you're merely rehashing OWT.

I have had a very successful career as a Senior Engineer / Program Manager for years now.

My degree?

A BA in History, with a minor in Political Philosophy.

How did your BA and MA get you the engineering position?

Or did you have some other experience that made you attractive to your employer?

Generally speaking Ron is correct. The history degree alone will not open a lot of doors for people. Lets be honest, not too many jobs for a BA in history, one needs extra training experience, or connections to put that degree to work. But your comment about skill obtained during the pursuing of the degree are also true.

I am back pursuing another grad degree myself and am running into lots of history majors who are pursuing additional graduate training in the hopes of finally being able to land a job that does not require one to recite 'would you like fries with that'.

Note to the OP.

Being a pilot now is as tough a road to hoe as it has ever been. The economy being down has affected the job market as it has in many other sectors too. But it is still possible to get jobs in aviation. I do not recommend that you drop out to pursue it though. If history is not your thing, change majors. If you want to pursue aviation do it part time while finishing your degree. Be prepared to pay your dues for a few years doing jobs that will not pay much. Follow Spike's advice and do not pay ahead.

 

[steingar]

The OP should talk to the faculty and professional counselors at his University. I do not honestly mean to be offensive (for a change) but I doubt strongly that any of us really know what kind of career path one can do with a given degree in today's job market.

 

[SkyHog]

Anybody know what one can do with a BA in history compared to what one can do with a CFI? My experience suggests that graduate school of some sort (law degree, masters/PhD, etc) is going to be necessary for someone with that BA degree to do much of anything outside flipping burgers, and being able to earn a few bucks instructing nights and weekends could help pay for grad school. But I would not recommend dropping out of college to pursue that pilot program -- a college degree is costly, but it's also priceless in life.

I disagree, Ron. School doesn't really teach you much, but for the older generation that REQUIRES(!!!) that degree, it gets you in the door. Seems just having a degree is good enough.

 

[Skip Miller]

The people I know who own the nicest aircraft are not professional pilots, that's for sure.

Greg Bockelman?

-Skip

 

[ScottM]

Greg Bockelman?

-Skip

Ted blew off everyone for the 6Y9 fly-in so he may not be familiar with Greg's plane.

 

[Ted]

Greg Bockelman?

Yes, and the 195 is a great aircraft. But the only person on my field who owns his own King Air is not a professional pilot, he owns a bunch of local car dealerships.

 

[Ted]

Ted blew off everyone for the 6Y9 fly-in so he may not be familiar with Greg's plane.

Hey! I have seen the 195 at Gaston's and at Osh (twice)!

I'm (probably) going to be at WV62... probably... maybe... we'll see.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Ted blew off everyone for the 6Y9 fly-in so he may not be familiar with Greg's plane.

He was at Gaston's. He knows what it is.

 

[CJones]

To the OP:

Not sure how far you are in your degree program, but if it is possible, I would recommend getting a degree in something other than History to fall-back on. My wife is currently a History major / Political Science minor. Unfortunately, she is pretty much limited to teaching as a career - luckily that is exactly what she wants to do. Unless that is something you are willing to do as a career if/when the pilot gig doesn't work out, I would consider getting a degree in a true 'entry level acceptable' degree.

Employers are extremely selective these days. With college attendance growing at major universities every year, there are MANY more people walking around with a 4-year degree than there were 20 years ago. Due to this, I don't think the OWT that "Any degree will get you in the door to almost any job" holds true like it did at one time. I will come out of school with a double-major (B.S. Business - 'Operations & Supply Chain Mgmt' and 'Mgmt Information Systems'). At the College of Business career fair earlier this week, I was being shunned for 'Logistics & Supply Chain Mgmt' jobs and some 'Software Engineering' positions and I'm pulling a 3.4 GPA in the combined majors while having some 'real' experience on my resume as well as having more 'life experience' than 99% of the other graduates. In my experience, the days of "Oh, you've been to college? Well, we can probably teach you everything you need to know for the job" are gone.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but just pointing out how the job market has shifted within the past 10-15 years. And I'm speaking from an active 'almost out of college, looking for a job' situation. I can't speak to the professional pilot program - even though I considered it at one time myself, 9/11 put a kabosh to my dreams - but having read about the volatility in the professional pilot field and seeing how the job market is situated right now, I would seriously consider having something more 'substantial' to fall back on than a History degree.

 

[ScottM]

He was at Gaston's. He knows what it is.

I see. So Ted just thinks you are unprofessional then? I let him take that!!

Although professional does imply that one is paid to do something. And while you may fly for a major airline these days that does not necessarily mean that you are paid.

 

[dmccormack]

Not as bad as having a retired military O-3 as a manager. No wonder why the military would never promote them.

Some O-3s attended OCS after 10 years enlisted (E-6), graduated top in his class, and was given a succession of plum leadership assignments in line units (Armor, Calvary, Infantry).

Those retired O-3s are usually "leaders," rather than mere "managers."

 

[wabower]

Out of college I worked in the office of a Big 8 CPA firm in KC, a city with few big-client home offices. Accordingly, we performed many "sub-orders" for work at local branch offices of big companies headquartered elsewhere.

A number of them were technical firms, staffed largely by engineers and others of that ilk. As I made the rounds of these offices, doing whatever needed to be done on the financial side, a distinct trend was noticeable among their people. Most of the branch managers were the firm's brightest engineers. They had excelled at their engineering jobs and risen through the ranks, only to find themselves in a job they weren't prepared for and didn't like.

One guy at Woodward, Clyde Sherrard (at the time, the country's leading soils analysis firm) had a wall-full of MIT degrees and professional credentials, and was quite vocal in his disdain for the management functions. "Here I am, with all this education and aptitude in the field I really like and have gotten pretty good at, and what am I doing? Analyzing tough core samples? Hell no, I'm sitting at this F(&$^ing desk doing budgets and HR reviews, getting bids on new trucks and a bunch of other crap that I'm not qualified to do and hate every minute. I'd gladly trade places with any of the guys that work for me, but the company won't let it happen. Now I'm thinking I may need to go to night school to pick up some business and management courses, or maybe even an MBA."

The guys who can get through engineering school are obviously waaay smarter than necessary to figure out the B-school stuff, so IMO it's not a question of whether they could do it as much as whether they want to do it, and whether it's the best fit for them. Several of the interim CEO (company turnaround) assignments I did in the late 90's had engineering departments that fell within my area of responsibility. Once I figured out which ones had some common sense to go along with their engineering smarts, they were easy to work with and easy to manage.

I didn't ever try to work on the personality or clean underwear issues, since I was pretty sure I wouldn't be there for the 10 years necessary to get that part on track.

True, most engineers don't make good managers. Of course, most managers of engineering firms with such backgrounds are referred to as the pointy-haired boss, usually with good reason.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Some O-3s attended OCS after 1 years enlisted (E-6), graduated top in his class, and was given a succession of plum leadership assignments in line units (Armor, Calvary, Infantry).

Those retired O-3s are usually "leaders," rather than mere "managers."

I'm speaking of a career officer, not from enlisted. We had a couple over the years that fit that category and trust me they were neither "leaders" or "managers" but they were god's gift, just ask them.

BTW my Chief Pilot is an Air Force retired Lt. Col. and is by far the best Chief Pilot I have ever worked for. On the flip side my DO is a retired Navy Capt. and can't manage where to put his pens on his desk.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

And while you may fly for a major airline these days that does not necessarily mean that you are paid.

That is the funniest thing I have seen in a while, Scott. I HAVE to laugh or else I would cry because it is too close to the truth.

 

[ScottM]

That is the funniest thing I have seen in a while, Scott. I HAVE to laugh or else I would cry because it is too close to the truth.

A couple of years ago my old CFI got a job at Mesaba. he got through his initial training, I think it was in the SAAB, and started flying but then got furloughed. The airline then tried to bill him for the training since, in their words he had left the airline prior to spending 3 years with him. YIKES!

Thankfully the union went to bat for the guys that were affected by that and with lawyers gearing up for a big fight the airline relented and he did not have to pay to be laid off any longer.

So sad to see what has happened with the way airline staff, pilots mechanics, et al. have been treated.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I think it was in the SAAB, and started flying but then got furloughed. The airline then tried to bill him for the training since, in their words he had left the airline prior to spending 3 years with him. YIKES!

WOW!!! Talk about rubbing salt into the wounds.

Thankfully the union went to bat for the guys that were affected by that and with lawyers gearing up for a big fight the airline relented and he did not have to pay to be laid off any longer.

As it should be.

So sad to see what has happened with the way airline staff, pilots mechanics, et al. have been treated.

Yup. I am not a big fan of unions, but that is why we need them in this industry.

 

[dmccormack]

I'm speaking of a career officer, not from enlisted. We had a couple over the years that fit that category and trust me they were neither "leaders" or "managers" but they were god's gift, just ask them.

BTW my Chief Pilot is an Air Force retired Lt. Col. and is by far the best Chief Pilot I have ever worked for. On the flip side my DO is a retired Navy Capt. and can't manage where to put his pens on his desk.

The Army has a move up or move out policy for officers which limits the allowable of time in grade. So it would be nigh impossible to retire as an O-3 unless the Captain was prior enlisted.

I finished up my term as an Infantry company commander (one of the hardest and best slots ever), had 21 years in, did not look forward to staff work as a Major, so handed in my retirement letter in June, 2001. It was also a 20 year anniversary present.

 

[bockwoman3]

The people I know who own the nicest aircraft are not professional pilots, that's for sure.

Apparently some of us have a misguided idea of what constitutes a "nice" airplane...

Cessna 195 vs. King Air? When you can fly a big, fast airplane for a living, what's so "nice" about flying something like a King Air as a hobby?