Amtrak train schedule layover question

Ted DuPuis said:
It also comes down to a distance/time issue. Even if you're averaging 100 mph on your trip, that makes New York to San Francisco roughly 30 hours, whereas if you fly there commercially you'll leave after breakfast and get there in time for dinner. In Europe, Brussels to Zurich is an 8 hour train ride. When the price is similar, most people are going to take the option that's faster.
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Rachel's family housed a foreign exchange student from Germany when she was in high school. Before she went home, they took the train from Ft. Madison, IA to the Grand Canyon. The girl was ASTONISHED at how long they were on the train. I think her comment was something along the line of "If I rode the train for this long at home (Germany), we would be half-way through Russia by now!"

We *might* still do a train trip, but it will be a point-to-point instead of trying to do some sight-seeing in the middle. She has some friends in Boston that she has wanted to visit for a while, and that wouldn't be too bad of a trip.

Thanks for all the tips/stories about riding the train.
 
The other impediment to train travel in the US is the lack of adequate transportation alternatives at the destination. Since public transportation as a whole is woefully inadequate, you frequently need to rent a car there anyway. The idea of taking a train and renting a car instead of just driving your own car tends to push people towards just driving if they aren't flying. And I frequently can't understand why one would fly commercial for these relatively short distances.
 
gprellwitz said:
I could certainly see a midwest network with lines connecting (some of) Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Minneapolis, and some others. But it would require government involvement because you'd need the right of eminent domain, and I'm not at all convinced it would be economically feasible. You could not get it to work effectively on the freight tracks for the reasons Keith mentioned earlier. It might work from a public policy standpoint, though.

Edit: I posted before Keith's latest post. Listen to him, not me! :)
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That is the way to start. The New York to LA would not be a good business proposition.

Keith Lane said:
I get asked all the time about why the US doesn't build HSR in this country. Primarily it's the infrastructure cost. Imagine the cost to acquire the land to build a HSR line from Atlanta to Los Angeles. As soon as the route gets announced, the land values skyrocket. Happened in the 1800's, it would certainly happen again. The current fiscal bailout looks cheap by comparison. Any HSR line could have NOT ONE SINGLE highway grade crossing on it. (look at the Deusche Bahn's ICE trains, as an example). That means thousands of bridges and underpasses. Also, say there is a 250 MPH "bullet train" from ATL to LAX. Every city of any significance along the route understandably wants service/access to the train. So, Birmingham, Al, Shreveport, La, Dallas etc, etc, all have stops. Now what it the average speed of your HSR line now? Because of sparse population, HSR from Dallas to LAX makes sense, sort of, but still, the costs of building it would be paid off about the time teletransportation becomes widely accepted.
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But we have to start somewhere. Getting corrider cities set up is the way to start. Like Acella did with it run, the next thing would be say, Atlanta to Miami via Orlando. The cost with the stimulus bill could become a doable thing. We are Americans and we can find ways of making something work. Of that I am confident, depending fully on air travel in this day in age is not the best thing to do. It is far more economical to get some highspeed rail lines running on short haul trips. Even hooking them up to the airport hubs would be a good idea. In the Midwest a high speed link from Madison to Chicago with a stop at KORD would be very helpful, maybe as a 2nd step a continuation to St. Louis. Where a train stops can be managed. In Japan there are express and semi-express trains that people can choose from.
 
CJones said:
We *might* still do a train trip, but it will be a point-to-point instead of trying to do some sight-seeing in the middle.
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The one I would like to do with my wife is from Toronto to Vancouver. That would be a good trip.
 
EppyGA said:
The one I would like to do with my wife is from Toronto to Vancouver. That would be a good trip.
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I have stayed at several of the CP hotels. Though they are now owned by the Fairmont they were great. The hotels were built along that train line and are very nice!!

The part of the trip from Calgary to Vancouver is through some of the most stunning scenery on this planet.
 
smigaldi said:
I have stayed at several of the CP hotels. Though they are now owned by the Fairmont they were great. The hotels were built along that train line and are very nice!!

The part of the trip from Calgary to Vancouver is through some of the most stunning scenery on this planet.
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Here's a picture of the Fairmont Chateau Lake Louise, and the view from the hotel looking the other way towards where I was when I took the first pic.
 

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CJones said:
Rachel's family housed a foreign exchange student from Germany when she was in high school. Before she went home, they took the train from Ft. Madison, IA to the Grand Canyon. The girl was ASTONISHED at how long they were on the train. I think her comment was something along the line of "If I rode the train for this long at home (Germany), we would be half-way through Russia by now!"
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There's another factor in that that Europeans commonly forget, and that's the distance you're traveling. No doubt, European trains are much faster than anything in America, but you were also traveling quite a long distance to get from Iowa to the Grand Canyon. From her home in Germany, the distance you traveled probably would take her a good ways into Russia. :)

Normally, this is one of the reasons Europeans don't understand why we complain about gas prices when they pay much more. Europe is so packed that you actually can have public transit work well, since it's easy to have enough routes that cover where most of the people want to go. In America that simply doesn't work with a few exceptions (NYC, DC, and Boston being the three best examples I can think of). The end result is we drive more than they do because of how our country is built.
 
Everskyward said:
Here's a picture of the Fairmont Chateau Lake Louise, and the view from the hotel looking the other way towards where I was when I took the first pic.
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I have been there and have similar pictures. Anyone who was there may also recognize Alkali lake from the X-Man movies as being shot all around the Chateau.
 
Keith Lane said:
I get asked all the time about why the US doesn't build HSR in this country. Primarily it's the infrastructure cost. Imagine the cost to acquire the land to build a HSR line from Atlanta to Los Angeles. As soon as the route gets announced, the land values skyrocket. Happened in the 1800's, it would certainly happen again. The current fiscal bailout looks cheap by comparison. Any HSR line could have NOT ONE SINGLE highway grade crossing on it. (look at the Deusche Bahn's ICE trains, as an example). That means thousands of bridges and underpasses. Also, say there is a 250 MPH "bullet train" from ATL to LAX. Every city of any significance along the route understandably wants service/access to the train. So, Birmingham, Al, Shreveport, La, Dallas etc, etc, all have stops. Now what it the average speed of your HSR line now? Because of sparse population, HSR from Dallas to LAX makes sense, sort of, but still, the costs of building it would be paid off about the time teletransportation becomes widely accepted.
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How wide is the right-of-way for the high speed trains?


Trapper John
 
Trapper John said:
How wide is the right-of-way for the high speed trains?


Trapper John
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Good question... I also wonder how much existing RoW it could overlay.

No doubt Keith's main point about huge expense stands, though.
 
smigaldi said:
The part of the trip from Calgary to Vancouver is through some of the most stunning scenery on this planet.
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Now you've really made me want to do it.

Do you fly out of Lake In The Hills?
 
EppyGA said:
Doesn't the stimulus bill contain eight billion for a high speed train from LA to Vegas?
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We need one in the Midwest: Detroit and Toledo/Cleveland to Chicago to Springfield/St. Louis and Milwaukee.

Amtrak can't even keep the reasonable Chicago-Milwaukee Hiawatha Service line running. They canceled half the trains. It's fast and reliable enough that a handful of people still use it to commute to work.
 
EppyGA said:
Doesn't the stimulus bill contain eight billion for a high speed train from LA to Vegas?
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No, that's a bit of political misinformation that was floating around.

What it actually contains is $8 billion for HSR projects nation-wide, but doesn't specify where it's to be used. Apparently the FRA has some general plans, but specific decisions won't be made for a while yet.

Here's some interesting reading on it: http://thetransportpolitic.com/2009/02/19/stopping-the-wrong-project-before-it-happens/
 
CJones said:
Ohhhhhhhhkay... So train trip is definitely out of the question. :)

A road trip is a possibility. We were contemplating taking the Jeep somewhere for some 'wheelin, but then I got a wild-hair idea about the train trip. I guess we're back on the drive vs. fly decision - to a destination that is yet to be determined.
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Have you ever been out to Moab for the Easter Jeep Safari? If not, do that!
 
Ted DuPuis said:
There's another factor in that that Europeans commonly forget, and that's the distance you're traveling. No doubt, European trains are much faster than anything in America, but you were also traveling quite a long distance to get from Iowa to the Grand Canyon. From her home in Germany, the distance you traveled probably would take her a good ways into Russia. :)

Normally, this is one of the reasons Europeans don't understand why we complain about gas prices when they pay much more. Europe is so packed that you actually can have public transit work well, since it's easy to have enough routes that cover where most of the people want to go. In America that simply doesn't work with a few exceptions (NYC, DC, and Boston being the three best examples I can think of). The end result is we drive more than they do because of how our country is built.
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Absolutely correct.
 
EppyGA said:
Doesn't the stimulus bill contain eight billion for a high speed train from LA to Vegas?
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If it does, that'd be a good thing. But think, $8 Billion to build a non-stop train through the desert.......

Think about running it through the Atlanta-Orlando-Miami corridor. The environmental studies alone would probably cost that.:yesnod:
 
Trapper John said:
How wide is the right-of-way for the high speed trains?


Trapper John
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Dunno.....
Google Earth imagery, using the measurement tool on a random, double main track for the Acela looks to be 50-60 feet wide. However, there would no doubt have to be a noise buffer corridor along each side, and a HUGE anti-trespasser barrier. This HSR would be useless without double tracks. You can switch tracks out of service temporarily to run around Maintenance-of-Way crews. The freight line from Omaha to Wyoming on the Union Pacific is triple track, and they run ~~160-170 coal trains a day through there. They always have an East and a West track open and the third is used for run-arounds. Back in the heyday of passenger rail, the tracks were always double. The advent of modern signal systems prompted the railroads to sell off the extra tracks and rights of way. Now they wish they hadn't. All that extra capacity could be put to use now. Many small railroads were actually bought, the tracks pulled out and sold for scrap, and then the right of way leased to fiber optic cable/telecommunications companies for more than the original purchase price. Of course, many lines have been converted to bike trails because of the gentle grades and relatively simple conversion.
 
EppyGA said:
Unfortunately this is all just another indication of what happens when you let the government try and run something instead of private enterprise. After all these years the government will never let it fail they will only continue to pour more money (our money) into it.
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Where is Mussolini when you need him???
 
Ted DuPuis said:
There's another factor in that that Europeans commonly forget, and that's the distance you're traveling. No doubt, European trains are much faster than anything in America, but you were also traveling quite a long distance to get from Iowa to the Grand Canyon. From her home in Germany, the distance you traveled probably would take her a good ways into Russia. :)

Normally, this is one of the reasons Europeans don't understand why we complain about gas prices when they pay much more. Europe is so packed that you actually can have public transit work well, since it's easy to have enough routes that cover where most of the people want to go. In America that simply doesn't work with a few exceptions (NYC, DC, and Boston being the three best examples I can think of). The end result is we drive more than they do because of how our country is built.
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Actually, that was the point I was trying to make -- she was amazed at the DISTANCE they traveled - not necessarily the time. She couldn't believe that you could cover SO much ground and still be in the same country!

Heck, many moons ago, I dated a girl from Sweden. She said they would go to Prague to get their alcohol because it was so much cheaper. In the U.S., you MIGHT go to another county for booze or MAYBE the next state, but in Europe, they go to another COUNTRY.
 
Keith, thanks for all your insight on this thread. Fascinating! I knew that one of the biggest problems that the railways suffer is the requirement to own the land the tracks are on and maintain the tracks, but I had no idea about Amtrak using freight lines and having to deal with those politics.

I love rail and would like to see more, but there are certainly a lot of challenges the railroads face.
 
CJones said:
Actually, that was the point I was trying to make -- she was amazed at the DISTANCE they traveled - not necessarily the time. She couldn't believe that you could cover SO much ground and still be in the same country!
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Oh! That makes more sense. :yesnod:

My mom had some friends who came to America from Belgium, and were driving around the west. They had decided to drive from Colorado to California, saying it didn't look like it was far on the map. Apparently they were using the same scale as in Europe.

Heck, many moons ago, I dated a girl from Sweden. She said they would go to Prague to get their alcohol because it was so much cheaper. In the U.S., you MIGHT go to another county for booze or MAYBE the next state, but in Europe, they go to another COUNTRY.
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That's not uncommon. Many moons ago myself, I spent some time in France right near Switzerland. In fact, the woman lived so close to the Swiss boarder that she basically went to Switzerland for everything. The town she lived in in France had no stores or anything there. So, every morning we drove to a different country for the day and came home.

On that same trip, I covered... hmm... I want to say 4 or 5 countries in a month. My last trip to Europe three years ago I spent time in 3 countries in 3 weeks, but I also passed through another 2 or 3 on the train.
 
How does this look to everyone. Is it doable? Rachel has a friend in Boston we would spend a day or so with, then bounce along the NE on the way back home. This would be our first time in the area, so we would only be able to hit the 'high points', but the 'high points' are better than 'no points'. :)

$842 round-trip, and I could probably get another 15% off of that since we are both technically students:

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Ted DuPuis said:
Keith, thanks for all your insight on this thread. Fascinating! I knew that one of the biggest problems that the railways suffer is the requirement to own the land the tracks are on and maintain the tracks, but I had no idea about Amtrak using freight lines and having to deal with those politics.

I love rail and would like to see more, but there are certainly a lot of challenges the railroads face.
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Go here, http://goeurope.about.com/od/europeanmaps/l/bl-country-size-comparison-map.htm

You'll see that Europe is about the same size as Texas to New York and includes most of the midwest and Florida
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Keith, thanks for all your insight on this thread. Fascinating! I knew that one of the biggest problems that the railways suffer is the requirement to own the land the tracks are on and maintain the tracks, but I had no idea about Amtrak using freight lines and having to deal with those politics.

I love rail and would like to see more, but there are certainly a lot of challenges the railroads face.
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Ditto. I was under the impression that Amtrak was running on its own tracks. I can see how sharing time with the UP would be tiresome - I lived in Boone, IA about 3 blocks from the UP line, and now I live in Ames, IA about 4 blocks from the same UP line -- lots of traffic through the area.

It will be interesting to see what the future of the RR holds. RR *could* be the bloodline that helps kick the manufacturing aspect of the US economy back into gear. They're already running at or above capacity throughout the system. Multi-modal transportation is pushed hard in Logistics courses in school, but if the rails are full, they're just full.
 
CJones said:
How does this look to everyone. Is it doable? Rachel has a friend in Boston we would spend a day or so with, then bounce along the NE on the way back home. This would be our first time in the area, so we would only be able to hit the 'high points', but the 'high points' are better than 'no points'. :)

$842 round-trip, and I could probably get another 15% off of that since we are both technically students:

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Just FYI, that Union Station is the one I wrote about...
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=412663&postcount=23
....but it's fine in the daytime. :D Let's hope you actually ARRIVE in the daytime!

It has a decent food court open in the daytime. It's only two blocks to the Sears Tower Skydeck.
 
Keith Lane said:
I get asked all the time about why the US doesn't build HSR in this country. Primarily it's the infrastructure cost. Imagine the cost to acquire the land to build a HSR line from Atlanta to Los Angeles. As soon as the route gets announced, the land values skyrocket. Happened in the 1800's, it would certainly happen again. The current fiscal bailout looks cheap by comparison. Any HSR line could have NOT ONE SINGLE highway grade crossing on it. (look at the Deusche Bahn's ICE trains, as an example). That means thousands of bridges and underpasses. Also, say there is a 250 MPH "bullet train" from ATL to LAX. Every city of any significance along the route understandably wants service/access to the train. So, Birmingham, Al, Shreveport, La, Dallas etc, etc, all have stops. Now what it the average speed of your HSR line now? Because of sparse population, HSR from Dallas to LAX makes sense, sort of, but still, the costs of building it would be paid off about the time teletransportation becomes widely accepted.
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Not to mention the politics... nor the posturing by the airlines (and TSA folks who would either be out of a job or find a way to harass train passengers).
 
CJones said:
How does this look to everyone. Is it doable? Rachel has a friend in Boston we would spend a day or so with, then bounce along the NE on the way back home. This would be our first time in the area, so we would only be able to hit the 'high points', but the 'high points' are better than 'no points'. :)

$842 round-trip, and I could probably get another 15% off of that since we are both technically students:

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Certainly doable. Done the NE corridor between Washington and Boston many times and found it to be reliable. Did the Washington to Chicago once, it was a blast, although we did have a sleeper for that. Train travel is different, really can't be in a hurry and need to adopt a laid back "we'll get there when we get there" approach. Pack yourself a nice picnic basket of favorite foods, some good wine, a good book and just relax!!

Gary
 
mikea said:
Just FYI, that Union Station is the one I wrote about...
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=412663&postcount=23
....but it's fine in the daytime. :D Let's hope you actually ARRIVE in the daytime!

It has a decent food court open in the daytime. It's only two blocks to the Sears Tower Skydeck.
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Ahhh... But you forget that I drive a public transportation bus myself. ;) Granted, we're not flooded with looneys like downtown Chicago at night, but the few wackos we DO have here are the ones that depend on public transportation to get ANYWHERE. Add to that the fact that I drive the 'drunk bus' on weekends (runs from 10:30pm - 3am Fri/Sat night to shuttle drunks around), and I have a pretty good grasp on handling weirdos. Heck, last Saturday night, I had the joy of breaking up a fight on the bus and requesting police assistance. Fun times!

Gary said:
Certainly doable. Done the NE corridor between Washington and Boston many times and found it to be reliable. Did the Washington to Chicago once, it was a blast, although we did have a sleeper for that. Train travel is different, really can't be in a hurry and need to adopt a laid back "we'll get there when we get there" approach. Pack yourself a nice picnic basket of favorite foods, some good wine, a good book and just relax!!

Gary
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That's what we're thinking. She graduates in August and I'll graduate in December. After that, life will shift to kids, mortgage and 401k's (hopefully). This might be our last chance to do something like this without having to worry about dragging a screaming kid around. :)
 
CJones said:
After that, life will shift to kids, mortgage and 401k's (hopefully). This might be our last chance to do something like this without having to worry about dragging a screaming kid around. :)
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OK, I understand, after this trip, life as you know it will end! :D Actually, the kids loved train travel. We took one trip out of Seattle to Glacier NP, had the "family room", as wide as the car and maybe 15 feet deep? An excellent adventure, the kids were old enough to understand and respect other people, so they had a great time.

Gary
 
From Railway Age (www.railwayage.com)

The money breakdown for Railroads:

Stimulus ’09: What’s in it for rail?
H.R. 1, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, contains billions of investment dollars for rail projects, passenger and freight.
Passenger rail stands to benefit the most from H.R. 1. In addition to the $13 billion over five years authorized last October under H.R. 2095, Amtrak receives $850 million for capital and $450 million for security. High speed and intercity passenger rail programs get a massive combined infusion of $8 billion. Guidelines will be developed over the next few months, but the USDOT Secretary and the Federal Railroad Administration will be primarily responsible for distributing funds. Project applicants can be a state or group of states, an interstate compact, a public agency established by one or more states with responsibility for providing high speed or intercity passenger rail service, or Amtrak. Transit, including bus and rail, gets $8.4 billion administered through the Federal Transit Administration, including $750 million each for the Fixed Guideway Modernization and New Starts programs. The Department of Homeland Security will separately administer a $150 million rail transit security fund.
Freight rail stands to benefit as well, with access to as much as $29 billion: $1.5 billion in a new discretionary grants program for capital investments in surface transportation infrastructure that will have a “significant impact on the nation, a metropolitan area, or a region,” and $27.5 billion in highway formula spending that can be flexed to rail. Through the Federal Highway Administration, there is $27.5 billion in highway infrastructure investment money for state DOTs and local MPOs (Metropolitan Planning Organizations) using formula grants (half via the STP formula and half via FY08 obligation limitation ratio distribution). At their discretion, states may flex any amount of this funding for passenger and freight rail transportation and port infrastructure projects eligible for assistance under Subsection 601(a)(8) of Section 133 of Title 23, U.S.C. Projects may involve the combining of private and public sector funds, including investment of public funds in private sector facility improvements. States will have 120 days after apportionment, which must be made within 21 days of the H.R. 1’s enactment, to obligate the first 50% of their highway apportionments and until one year after apportionment to obligate the remainder. The federal share of projects is up to 100%.
 
you'll have to take off your socks, too, as they'll likely be stuck to the floor! :eek:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Rail Road crossing safety.

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:rofl: "Sir Robert Markson," huh? Are there any laws about impersonating nobility?

I just caught the episode of Top Gear where they tested American muscle cars by driving from San Fransisco to the Bonneville salt flats, all while avoiding being entertaining because the U.S. state department informed them they had visas allowing them to make a "factual documentary" only.
 
wsuffa said:
Like the private enterprise airlines always run on time. :rofl:

The trains in Switzerland run like clockwork. And they are state-subsidized.

Maybe we can blame the unions, too.
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I blame credit default swaps.
 
TMetzinger said:
Great, now I have to take off my shoes at Union Station.
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Obviously you've never been through there when the Amtrak cops are doing one of their "gunpoint" bag searches. I have a couple of times.

They have - literally - several cops in full riot/protection gear with automatic weapons, dogs, and two armed cops ransacking through "random" passenger bags. The searches are literally at gunpoint. It makes the TSA look like child-play (except the passengers don't go through metal detectors... but I've seen some wanded). I've also seen them walk dogs through trains and harass people seated to make them "present papers" (the same way the border guards in East Germany used to do).

This was on the Acela. And no royalt... er politicians that I could see.
 
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