Tell me about seaplane instructors

[dsffdssdf]

For a few months now, I've been swirling around my head the idea of becoming a seaplane instructor. Right now I have a CFI with about 700 hours of dual given, but no seaplane rating. One of these days if I can get some time off, I plan on traveling somewhere and getting the rating. (The nearest seaplane school from where I live is a 12 hours drive away.) Then if I like it, I'll start sending off resumes.

The only issue I see here is that in my google searches, it seems that the only places that do seaplane instruction are small mom&pop type operations where the instructors have either 10,000 hours of seaplane time, or have been flying seaplanes for 15 year. So i'm thinking I'll have a hard time finding work unless I'm either lucky or I become rich and am able to buy my own seaplane.

I always thought it was impossible for me to get a job instructing in seaplanes until I read that recent article in the AOPA magazine about this large seaplane school in Florida. They mentioned an instructor there who was young and I remember the article mentioned he had aspirations of going off to a regional airline. When I read that it was what sparked my interest in persuing a seaplane instructor job. Fifteen year seaplane veterans don't aspire to work at the regionals...

So I ask the populace of Pilots of America, tell me about your seaplane flight school/instructor. Theres got to be at least more than a handful of people who hold a seaplane rating. Where did you get it? What kind of qualifications did your instructor have?

 

[Henning]

You will have to buy the plane. If you are successful, the plane will pay for itself and put some $$$ in your pocket.

I used Shebles for my seaplane rating.

 

[TeenDoc]

Where are you located?

If in the NE, check Twitchell 3B5. That's where I did my seaplane training, both private and commercial ASES. Tom O'Connel was my instructor, knowledgeable, experienced and a lot of fun to fly with.

The limitation I see, if you're considering a career flying seaplanes commercially, is that they only have two C172 on floats and there's very little you can carry in a C172 on floats. You would need to look for operations with other planes like Beavers for further training.

Gil

 

[thepetrostate]

The Salton Sea outfit, Salton Sea Flying Service offers the cheapest rating
I've seen, they also use Supercubs. I don't know much else about them.

The suggestion to check out the Seaplane Pilots Association is a good one,
many places have a lone guy with a seaplane who does the ratings.

Be aware there are two types of ratings

- the Shebles, La Placa, Salton Sea - one day quickies. Just gets you some
fun flying and the ticket.

- "real" ratings that will acually train you to fly and survive seaplanes.

Whatever one you get, very few places will let you rent and go solo.

Some pictures on http://www.goodflying.com/flightlog/frameset_map.html

 

[dsffdssdf]

The Salton Sea outfit, Salton Sea Flying Service offers the cheapest rating
I've seen, they also use Supercubs. I don't know much else about them.

The suggestion to check out the Seaplane Pilots Association is a good one,
many places have a lone guy with a seaplane who does the ratings.

Be aware there are two types of ratings

- the Shebles, La Placa, Salton Sea - one day quickies. Just gets you some
fun flying and the ticket.

- "real" ratings that will acually train you to fly and survive seaplanes.

Whatever one you get, very few places will let you rent and go solo.

Some pictures on http://www.goodflying.com/flightlog/frameset_map.html

Great suggestions, but I'm more concerned about how difficult it will be for me to break out into the seaplane instructor industry without a huge amount of "seaplane cred". If I can't find anyone to hire me, a seaplane rating is worthless.

In the regular land plane flight instructor industry, all you really have to have is a fresh CFI certificate and you'll pretty much get hired anywhere. I just need to know if the same will hold true for seaplane instruction.

Also, do you have any more information on "Salton Sea Flying Service"? Ironically, a google search for that exact phrase returns exactly one hit; this thread...

 

[Ken Ibold]

I did my seaplane training at Jack Brown's -- precisely the place mentioned in the AOPA article. As I recall, the instructor I used had been hired with no SES rating and trained by the school to be an instructor. They've been doing it a long time and know just how to cover all the bases in the most efficient way possible. As I recall, my instructor wanted to take the seaplane experience he was getting and be an alaskan bush pilot. That was three years ago. Looking him up now on the airman database, his flight instructor rating is still active, but he has a number of type ratings. He's still in Florida.

 

[Henning]

Great suggestions, but I'm more concerned about how difficult it will be for me to break out into the seaplane instructor industry without a huge amount of "seaplane cred". If I can't find anyone to hire me, a seaplane rating is worthless.

Not impossible, but the opportunities will be very limited. If you have a lot of CFI time with a good record, that helps a lot. Much greater and better opportunity if you buy a plane though.

 

[CJones]

Just out of curiosity: Are there any quantifiable benefits to getting a SES other than the joy of having it on your ticket? Does Comm-SES have any potential for a revenue stream in the lower 48 states? I know nobody is going to get rich doing it, but I'm just curious if there are any business using SES for anything other than Alaskan/Canadian bush flying.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Just out of curiosity: Are there any quantifiable benefits to getting a SES other than the joy of having it on your ticket? Does Comm-SES have any potential for a revenue stream in the lower 48 states? I know nobody is going to get rich doing it, but I'm just curious if there are any business using SES for anything other than Alaskan/Canadian bush flying.

There are, I believe a few charter companies that are using Caravans on floats as air taxis between the mainland and islands in the northeast, and some in the bahamas as well.

 

[Henning]

Just out of curiosity: Are there any quantifiable benefits to getting a SES other than the joy of having it on your ticket? Does Comm-SES have any potential for a revenue stream in the lower 48 states? I know nobody is going to get rich doing it, but I'm just curious if there are any business using SES for anything other than Alaskan/Canadian bush flying.

You bet, I could make money with an SES or better yet, an MES right now and I live in SoFla. Paradise is a 45 minute flight away.

 

[CJones]

There are, I believe a few charter companies that are using Caravans on floats as air taxis between the mainland and islands in the northeast, and some in the bahamas as well.

You bet, I could make money with an SES or better yet, an MES right now and I live in SoFla. Paradise is a 45 minute flight away.

Interesting. I guess it makes sense. I just don't get to see it here in landlocked IOWA. Although there is a guy doing SES ratings on the Mississippi River between DVN and BRL. Fly up and down the river all day and take your checkride that afternoon in BRL with 'Uncle Tommy'.

 

[Henning]

Interesting. I guess it makes sense. I just don't get to see it here in landlocked IOWA. Although there is a guy doing SES ratings on the Mississippi River between DVN and BRL. Fly up and down the river all day and take your checkride that afternoon in BRL with 'Uncle Tommy'.

Yeah, it sucks a$$ to live in Iowa, I feel for you bro, I feel for ya... Well, keep up the good work, somebodies gotta live there, and I appreciate your sacrafice. Now there's a bottle of Pyrat XO in the freezer calling my name...

 

[Henning]

Interesting. I guess it makes sense. I just don't get to see it here in landlocked IOWA. Although there is a guy doing SES ratings on the Mississippi River between DVN and BRL. Fly up and down the river all day and take your checkride that afternoon in BRL with 'Uncle Tommy'.

MN is right up the way though and there's some great seaplane flying up there.

 

[dsffdssdf]

I did my seaplane training at Jack Brown's -- precisely the place mentioned in the AOPA article. As I recall, the instructor I used had been hired with no SES rating and trained by the school to be an instructor. They've been doing it a long time and know just how to cover all the bases in the most efficient way possible. As I recall, my instructor wanted to take the seaplane experience he was getting and be an alaskan bush pilot. That was three years ago. Looking him up now on the airman database, his flight instructor rating is still active, but he has a number of type ratings. He's still in Florida.

Is Jack Browns a large-ish school or is it pretty small? Do you recall how many instructors they had employed? Of all the schools I've seen, Browns seems to be my best bet.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Is Jack Browns a large-ish school or is it pretty small? Do you recall how many instructors they had employed? Of all the schools I've seen, Browns seems to be my best bet.

A thousand bucks, a weekend, a blast.

At any given time they have no more than a handful of instructors, I think. John Brown, the owner, is the DPE who gives the checkride. 3 or 4 J-3s on floats, a Seabee for MES. Pretty simple operation.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The last I knew, a NAFI member CFI could give instruction in an EXPERIMENTAL plane such as a homebuilt seaplane and CHARGE for the plane rental as well as for the CFI dual for transitional training of rated pilots. No primary training allowed.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Great suggestions, but I'm more concerned about how difficult it will be for me to break out into the seaplane instructor industry without a huge amount of "seaplane cred". If I can't find anyone to hire me, a seaplane rating is worthless.

In the regular land plane flight instructor industry, all you really have to have is a fresh CFI certificate and you'll pretty much get hired anywhere. I just need to know if the same will hold true for seaplane instruction.

Also, do you have any more information on "Salton Sea Flying Service"? Ironically, a google search for that exact phrase returns exactly one hit; this thread...

Try Salton Sea Seaples and look a few lines down from the top...

 

[Henning]

The last I knew, a NAFI member CFI could give instruction in an EXPERIMENTAL plane such as a homebuilt seaplane and CHARGE for the plane rental as well as for the CFI dual for transitional training of rated pilots. No primary training allowed.

Eeeee.... I don't see how you can do that. I can see you giving instruction is someone else's experimental and charging them money for the instruction, but in your plane and charge for it?

 

[tonycondon]

i thought there was an exemption from the FSDO that some had to do transition training in their experimentals. popular among the RV guys. I didnt know that NAFI had anything to do with it.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Eeeee.... I don't see how you can do that. I can see you giving instruction is someone else's experimental and charging them money for the instruction, but in your plane and charge for it?

Check with the EAA & NAFI for details, transitional training only, no primary flight students.

 

[Henning]

Check with the EAA & NAFI for details, transitional training only, no primary flight students.

How many people have been issued this authority?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Eeeee.... I don't see how you can do that. I can see you giving instruction is someone else's experimental and charging them money for the instruction, but in your plane and charge for it?

Eeeee.... here you go!:

(The FAA let the original blanket letter expire a few years ago. Now a simple letter from the FSDO allows for a CFI to CHARGE for the rental of their EXPERIMENTAL aircraft as well as for the dual instruction given for TRANSITIONAL training.)

Flag this message
Deviation Authority for flight training

Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:38 AM



From:
"Joe Norris" <jnorris@eaa.org>
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Final - FAR 91.319 Flight Training - EAA Conversion Program, Training Syllabus, 5-01-07.doc (37KB), Final - FAR 91.319 Flight Training - EAA Conversion Program, 5-01-07.doc (418KB), Final - FAR 91.319 Flight Training - EAA Conversion Program, FAR 91-319, 5-01-07.doc (32KB), Final - FAR 91.319 Flight Training - EAA Conversion Program, Letter of Application, 5-01-07.doc (32KB)





Hello Dave,

The regulation that allows experimental aircraft to be used for transition training is 91.319(h) – and it simply says that the FAA (i.e., the FSDO) can issue a letter of deviation to allow an individual to use his/her aircraft for such training.

FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 3, chapter 11 provides the details that an FAA Inspector needs to review prior to issuing the letter of deviation. Finding this information is the part the FAA made difficult. Here’s where the inspector needs to look online:

1. Go to – http://fsims.faa.gov
2. At the top left click on “8900.1 Contents”
3. Click on Volume 3
4. Click on Chapter 11
5. Click on Section 1. Use of airplanes…. Paragraph 3-292 is the only statement in this section that discusses this issue, and it is out of date because 91.310(h) now allows the owner of an experimental aircraft to receive compensation when the aircraft is being used for flight training.

There never has been a restriction on the use of experimental aircraft for flight instruction as long as the owner did not receive compensation for the use of the aircraft – the flight instructor could be paid, but the aircraft costs could not be – that is until the new 91.319(h) which now allows it for transition training purposes.

When the FAA converted our exemption (# 7162) into FAR language (5/2007), we prepared documents to help our members with this transition – they are attached. The intent of the entire 91.319(h) process was not to impose strict Part 141 flight school standards, simply to impose reasonable flight training goals for each student – very similar to the controls the FAA would have on a independent CFI flying a TC’d aircraft.

The operating limitations of an experimental aircraft do not have to be modified, amended, or re-issued to support a deviation issued per 91.319(h). The letter of deviation simply needs to be carried in the aircraft.

Hope this helps.

Joe

Joe Norris
EAA 113615 Lifetime
Homebuilders Community Manager

EAA—The Spirit of Aviation

Phone: 888.322.4636 Extension 6806
Fax: 920.426.6560

www.eaa.org

See you at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh—July 27 – August 2, 2009

 

[Henning]

Eeeee.... here you go!:

(The FAA let the original blanket letter expire a few years ago. Now a simple letter from the FSDO allows for a CFI to CHARGE for the rental of their EXPERIMENTAL aircraft as well as for the dual instruction given for TRANSITIONAL training.)

Excellent, finally they acted sensibly on this. Too bad it's restricted to transition training.

 

[KennyFlys]

How would you define transition training? Hence, what are the limitations for applying this to various experimental aircraft?

I've often thought the Lanceair 235 or 320 would be an ideal and cost-effective trainer for Commercial tickets. If I interpret this rule, it can only apply if I or the student owns the aircraft.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Excellent, finally they acted sensibly on this. Too bad it's restricted to transition training.

True, but transitional training also covers A LOT of possible flight scenarios -almost anything. A good exercise is to think why some type of transitional flight training would absolutely not be covered by the FAA's deviation allowance, especially with the purpose of the flight lessons enhancing overall flight safety.

 

[Henning]

True, but transitional training also covers A LOT of possible flight scenarios -almost anything. A good exercise is to think why some type of transitional flight training would absolutely not be covered by the FAA's deviation allowance, especially with the purpose of the flight lessons enhancing overall flight safety.

I have a feeling they may limit the use of the times applicability to further ratings. Most experimentals you could toss a 20 hr transition, beyond that.... Training someone to use a GNS 530 or do cross country navigation, that's not transition training because it's not type specific.

 

[Lawreston]

I'm just seeing this thread and haven't read any of the responses. However, here's my offering:

Twitchell's Airport 3B5 in Turner, Maine is known far and wide for its seaplane base and instruction. Yup; it's a small 60+ year old operation but the float plane rating seekers come from far away for the instruction. I was there at one time and was talking to a student who exited his car. When I saw the license plate I asked what part of Connecticut he called home. I was surprised when he said that the automobile was a rental car; and that his home is in England. He proceeded to tell me that Twitchell's Airport/Seaplane Base is "known all over Europe because of its proficiency and friendliness."

Let me qualify that I have no financial interest in Crosswinds Air DBA Twitchell's Airport.
However, they've done just about all the annuals on the 2 planes I've owned; and Dale Twitchell is my current CFI(who's told me that I'm on my "last 90 day Student Certificate." Sounds like check ride isn't far away.

HR

I took the photo when one of our not seen recently PoA members was in her training(or maybe was during her check ride) at Twitchell's. She was from down South.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Twitchell's Airport 3B5 in Turner, Maine is known far and wide for its seaplane base and instruction. Yup; it's a small 60+ year old operation but the float plane rating seekers come from far away for the instruction.

I can attest to that - The latest issue of Water Flying magazine, which showed up in my mailbox today, has a story written by a guy who learned how to fly on floats at Twitchell's in 1950!

and Dale Twitchell is my current CFI(who's told me that I'm on my "last 90 day Student Certificate." Sounds like check ride isn't far away.

Woohoo!

I can't wait to congratulate you.

 

[gismo]

For a few months now, I've been swirling around my head the idea of becoming a seaplane instructor. Right now I have a CFI with about 700 hours of dual given, but no seaplane rating. One of these days if I can get some time off, I plan on traveling somewhere and getting the rating. (The nearest seaplane school from where I live is a 12 hours drive away.) Then if I like it, I'll start sending off resumes.

The only issue I see here is that in my google searches, it seems that the only places that do seaplane instruction are small mom&pop type operations where the instructors have either 10,000 hours of seaplane time, or have been flying seaplanes for 15 year. So i'm thinking I'll have a hard time finding work unless I'm either lucky or I become rich and am able to buy my own seaplane.

I always thought it was impossible for me to get a job instructing in seaplanes until I read that recent article in the AOPA magazine about this large seaplane school in Florida. They mentioned an instructor there who was young and I remember the article mentioned he had aspirations of going off to a regional airline. When I read that it was what sparked my interest in persuing a seaplane instructor job. Fifteen year seaplane veterans don't aspire to work at the regionals...

So I ask the populace of Pilots of America, tell me about your seaplane flight school/instructor. Theres got to be at least more than a handful of people who hold a seaplane rating. Where did you get it? What kind of qualifications did your instructor have?

My instructor was also the DE that gave my checkride (I've used him for other checkrides as well) and he has several thousand hours of floatplane experience including a lot of dual given but also plenty of real world experience. And I feel that his experience allowed him to teach me important practical things that wouldn't likely be covered by a CFI with minimal actual float plane experience. OTOH, I haven't found much opportunity to use my Commercial ASES rating since passing the checkride although I'm still looking for a partnership in a LSA on floats. I think that the vast majority of pilots who go for an ASES add-on do so for the fun of it with little if any further ASES flying so the lack of all that real world experience might not be such a big deal.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm still looking for a partnership in a LSA on floats.

If I get a job in your area, count me in.

Help finding said job is appreciated.

 

[jnmeade]

Interesting. I guess it makes sense. I just don't get to see it here in landlocked IOWA. Although there is a guy doing SES ratings on the Mississippi River between DVN and BRL. Fly up and down the river all day and take your checkride that afternoon in BRL with 'Uncle Tommy'.

Jim Goetcsch is not doing those this year and probably will not again as the floats are bad. Tommy Tomkins is also rtired so where do you get a DE?

You're going to have to go out of state. Tom Brady in Traverse City, MI will get you the rating for about $1000, including the examiner, in one day if the weather cooperates.

 

[gismo]

If I get a job in your area, count me in.

Help finding said job is appreciated.

I've actually been thinking about that seeing you're still looking. Could you list your experience, education, and occupational desires in a PM? I can't promise anything but I do have quite a few contacts in a few industries but trucking isn't one of them.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've actually been thinking about that seeing you're still looking. Could you list your experience, education, and occupational desires in a PM? I can't promise anything but I do have quite a few contacts in a few industries but trucking isn't one of them.

That's OK, I don't really want to get back into that mess of an industry anyway.

I finally decided I do need an "all-inclusive" resume, which I haven't done in an awfully long time because I have a very wide variety of skills and experience that I just haven't been able to fit on one page, or make much sense out of. However, I see there's a new "skills-based" resume format that's becoming more accepted, so I'm working on one of those and I'll send it to you as soon as I'm done. Thanks!

 

[airdale]

I think that the vast majority of pilots who go for an ASES add-on do so for the fun of it with little if any further ASES flying so the lack of all that real world experience might not be such a big deal.

I am surprised that this issue has not come up before. With all due respect to the OP's dream and recognizing that the industry paradigm is for inexperienced instructors to pass their inexperience on to their students, I still think that anyone who participates in this as a student is either an ignorant victim (usually for PPL) or is just plain stupid. I'll go with the 10,000 hour seaplane instructor, thanks.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I am surprised that this issue has not come up before. With all due respect to the OP's dream and recognizing that the industry paradigm is for inexperienced instructors to pass their inexperience on to their students, I still think that anyone who participates in this as a student is either an ignorant victim (usually for PPL) or is just plain stupid. I'll go with the 10,000 hour seaplane instructor, thanks.

How do you think he got to 10,000 hours?

Frankly, sometimes the young instructors are full of energy and they make up for their lack of experience with an abundance of enthusiasm. Sometimes, you can learn WITH them when you ask the right questions...

 

[airdale]

How do you think he got to 10,000 hours?

Well, I would be looking for actual flying experience, not just "dual given." There is nothing wrong with "dual given" and it undoubtedly improves instructional skills but I don't count it the same as real world flying. IMHO anyway. It's the old question: "Do you have twenty years' experience or do you have one year year of experience twenty times?"

Frankly, sometimes the young instructors are full of energy and they make up for their lack of experience with an abundance of enthusiasm. Sometimes, you can learn WITH them when you ask the right questions...

I don't think I've ever flown with an instructor, or even another pilot for that matter, that I haven't learned something from. And the puppies, as you say, can be fun. But from that it doesn't logically follow that one would want to train with someone who has little or no real-world experience.

 

[dsffdssdf]

I am surprised that this issue has not come up before. With all due respect to the OP's dream and recognizing that the industry paradigm is for inexperienced instructors to pass their inexperience on to their students, I still think that anyone who participates in this as a student is either an ignorant victim (usually for PPL) or is just plain stupid. I'll go with the 10,000 hour seaplane instructor, thanks.

I'm not a seaplane pilot, but I don't really think it takes 10,000 hours (or even a fraction of that) to be considered "experienced". From all that I've heard about seaplanes, is that all it takes is an hour or two learning how to taxi on the water, then another hour learning how to land on various types of water surfaces. It's not exactly something that requires a lifetime of experience to do properly. Theres a certain plateau point where once you know how to do it, you know how to do it. Just because one instructor has 10,000 hours, doesn't mean he is 100 times better than a pilot who only has 100 hours. He may be a little bit better, which may be why 100 hour pilots typically charge slightly less than their 10,000 hour counterparts...

As long as you know how to do it, and you know how to teach, you can satisfactorily teach in seaplanes.

 

[airdale]

I'm not a seaplane pilot, but ... all it takes is an hour or two learning how to taxi on the water, then another hour learning how to land ... As long as you know how to do it, and you know how to teach, you can satisfactorily teach in seaplanes.

Wow. Please don't hesitate to amuse us with your opinions on other topics about which you know nothing.

My favorite internet cartoon: http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html

 

[dsffdssdf]

Wow. Please don't hesitate to amuse us with your opinions on other topics about which you know nothing.

My favorite internet cartoon: http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html

Dude, it doesn't take an expert to know what a seaplane rating entails. Read the PTS. It has all the tasks required for the rating. Its basically just water landings and water taxi operations. None of which require hundreds or thousands of hours to be proficient enough to teach.

 

[Henning]

I'm not a seaplane pilot, but I don't really think it takes 10,000 hours (or even a fraction of that) to be considered "experienced". From all that I've heard about seaplanes, is that all it takes is an hour or two learning how to taxi on the water, then another hour learning how to land on various types of water surfaces. It's not exactly something that requires a lifetime of experience to do properly.

Not a plateau so much as a lessened gradient. Hopefully you learn throughout your life. As far as a few hours, you can get the flying part in that, that's true, however, there is something else involved, you have to learn some seamanship as well. For someone with no nautical experience, there's about another 8 hours minimum of seamanship to cover. If you know you a bowline, French Bowline, various hitches: cleat, running, clove, rolling... a sheet bend and various other bends,and how to rig spring lines and secure to cleats, bits or pilings, how to read the water for what is underneath, how to dock in a 6 kt current, how to read currents and know where the eddies will be and the sandbars, how to sail, especially to weather, how to heave to,.... these types of things, you'll be good to go. If you don't know what I just said, if you have a 170 IQ and $700+ aircraft, I can get you through it in 8hrs. Normally it takes me a three day weekend out full time with someone to get them to that point.

So figure for real, unless you are already a competent seaman, it'll take about 20-30hrs to be competent to let go. Now, not all of that will be in the aircraft, figure about 8 hrs of ground school, and it also depends on how far you have to go to sample various conditions. The big difference is that water is a dynamic environment so there's more things to consider and correct for. Another biggie, and this is why very few of those 7hr Seaplane Rating places wont rent you the plane to solo (unless you do about 20 more hours with them), is that when things go wrong, they go wrong fast, and water carries extreme energy, if you have been to sea in a storm, you know, if not, you have no idea, take it for granted though, you get the plane in the wrong place in a current, thing will break. If you get ut upstream of a barge, it can pull you under and shoot you out the back, unless you get wedged in. Either way is not pleasant. It happens to big tug boats fairly frequently, a plane wouldnt stand a chance.