Best Insurance Carrier (Underwriter) for Senior Pilots?

F

farmrjohn

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
411
Display Name
Display name:
farmrjohn
I've used the search functionhere and google-fu to no avail in determining the best insurance carrier/underwriter for pilots of a certain age (older, 70s+). There were several results referencing recommended brokers, but not the actual insurer. It's looking like a choice for a carrier going forward into the later senior years is between Global, Starr, and Avemco, and all of them don't care for retracts. It's also suggested to have your "final" plane by age 75 and not to change carriers. Thoughts?
 
Once you are an Avemco customer, they won't fire you for a birthday. They look at total hours and require annual physical and Flight Review. Not sure when that starts, I went back to them over 80. You are correct, they are not excited about retracts. I was told to ask again after a couple of years back on (was thinking T-34). I have a taildragger and they are OK with that. Won't do any rotary wing at any age, but the renter's contract is for any aircraft. So, you could rent a retract, or a helicopter for that matter.

I can't address any others.
 
I use Global through Aviation Insurance Resources. I'm not 70 yet so no idea how it works for those folks. I do know they were much cheaper than Avemco that I used for a few years prior ...
 
FormerHangie said:
I'm guessing then you have no one in your life who you think it would be important to leave an estate for, and don't care if you compensate anyone that your accident injures or destroys their property.
Click to expand...

What I do with my property, and how I handle business affairs is no ones business but my own.

If the government came out with a new regulation requiring aircraft owners to purchase insurance you and several others would lose your minds.
 
Doc Holliday said:
What I do with my property, and how I handle business affairs is no ones business but my own.

If the government came out with a new regulation requiring aircraft owners to purchase insurance you and several others would lose your minds.
Click to expand...
Too bad you don’t understand the concept of personal responsibility unless the government mandates it.
 
Doc Holliday said:
What I do with my property, and how I handle business affairs is no ones business but my own.

If the government came out with a new regulation requiring aircraft owners to purchase insurance you and several others would lose your minds.
Click to expand...

I'm not going any farther with this here out of respect for the OP, who asked a very reasonable question.
 
I have a good friend, 81, who insures his Comanche 260B with AVEMCO. Annual Class 3, yearly flight review, and a bunch of cash. Would insure a fixed gear single<200hp with a Basic Med and regular biannual reviews
 
FormerHangie said:
I'm guessing then you have no one in your life who you think it would be important to leave an estate for, and don't care if you compensate anyone that your accident injures or destroys their property.
Click to expand...
Does umbrella coverage exclude aviation? Or exclude if there’s no underlying coverage? I haven’t had umbrella in years so I don’t recall
 
Salty said:
Too bad you don’t understand the concept of personal responsibility unless the government mandates it.
Click to expand...

And exactly how to you know this?

Maybe he has available liquid assets in excess of the typical insurance coverage.
 
Randomskylane said:
Or exclude if there’s no underlying coverage? I haven’t had umbrella in years so I don’t recall
Click to expand...

Most require a minimum coverage underlying. So you can't insure your car for $10,000 liability, the put a $1 million umbrella over it. :)
 
Pinecone said:
And exactly how to you know this?

Maybe he has available liquid assets in excess of the typical insurance coverage.
Click to expand...
My comment had nothing to do with his coverage.
 
We are a small club with 1 aircraft (12 members) - the 2022 renewal added a clause that pilots over 75 had to have another younger pilot with them.

This year 2023 renewal (with Starr) removed that requirement but it was an additional $1800 to do it and required any CFI's we might use be pre-approved by Starr.

There was an EAA presentation in 2022 that basically indicated those over 75 may be S.O.O.L. in the future :)
 
Pinecone said:
Your comment implied he would walk away from an incident where he was at fault. There is no information in infer that.
Click to expand...
No, it didn’t. My comment asserted that he jumped directly to government force of responsibility rather than choosing a voluntary, fiscally sound way of assuring victims would be cared for. But now that you point it out, yeah, odds are pretty high that he doesn’t have a million dollars sitting around to pay for damages he may cause.
 
Salty said:
No, it didn’t. My comment asserted that he jumped directly to government force of responsibility rather than choosing a voluntary, fiscally sound way of assuring victims would be cared for. But now that you point it out, yeah, odds are pretty high that he doesn’t have a million dollars sitting around to pay for damages he may cause.
Click to expand...

Uh, no, he said to forego insurance companies. Not anything about government forcing anything.
 
Not to step into the ****ing match, but is it the liability that's hard to get at an advanced age, or just the hull? The comment about retracts implies that the issue is insuring the hull, and I can absolutely see skipping that side of it altogether and carrying just liability.
 
kayoh190 said:
Not to step into the ****ing match, but is it the liability that's hard to get at an advanced age, or just the hull? The comment about retracts implies that the issue is insuring the hull, and I can absolutely see skipping that side of it altogether and carrying just liability.
Click to expand...
From what I’ve seen it’s hull that’s the bigger issue
 
FormerHangie said:
I'm guessing then you have no one in your life who you think it would be important to leave an estate for, and don't care if you compensate anyone that your accident injures or destroys their property.
Click to expand...

You might be surprised about the number of aircraft owners who self insure and include large corporations.
 
Last edited:
Clip4 said:
You might be surprised about the number of aircraft owners who self insure and include large corporations.
Click to expand...
I’d wager zero private aircraft owners self insure. Some large corporations do. Self insurance means dedicating millions set aside in special accounts to pay any liabilities. Not having insurance is NOT self insurance.
 
Salty said:
I’d wager zero private aircraft owners self insure. Some large corporations do. Self insurance means dedicating millions set aside in special accounts to pay any liabilities. Not having insurance is NOT self insurance.
Click to expand...

Really? So your current aircraft insurance covers you for millions? Once you subtract the hull value and consider the per person limits, how much insurance do you really have? $100k a person with a 1 million policy isn’t much insurance yet the insurers will tell you they can defend you with a $100k a person limit.
 
Last edited:
Clip4 said:
Really? So your current aircraft insurance covers you for millions? Once you subtract the hull value and consider the per person limits, how much insurance do you really have? $100k a person with a 1 million policy isn’t much insurance yet the insurers will tell you they can defend you with a $100k a person limit.
Click to expand...
Self insurance is government regulated. To call yourself self insured you must meet their requirements, which are far more strict than if you use another insurance agency. If you don't, you are "not insured" - rather than "self insured". They are not the same thing.
 
Salty said:
Self insurance is government regulated. To call yourself self insured you must meet their requirements, which are far more strict than if you use another insurance agency. If you don't, you are "not insured" - rather than "self insured". They are not the same thing.
Click to expand...

Without a specific federal or state regulation requiring aviation liability insurance for Part 91, who exactly do you think cares? There is no regulatory burden to meet.
 
I guess if you want to call something insurance, that in no way is insurance go for it
 
You’ll notice the article never uses the phrase “self insure”. It says uninsured and no insurance.
 
Call it what you like, please post the regulation you believe prohibits any self insurance plan for a Part 91 operator.
 
Thanks for the replies. Political/philosophical discussions aside, does anyone have direct specific knowledge of which carriers insure older pilots and when or what restrictions they place on their coverage? For example after a specific age: annual FAA physicals vs. Basic Med, annual flight review, must be accompanied by a CFI etc.
 
Clip4 said:
Call it what you like, please post the regulation you believe prohibits any self insurance plan for a Part 91 operator.
Click to expand...
"Call it what you like" is the problem. You may call it insurance, but it's not insurance. You're misusing the word that actually has a meaning. Not having insurance is NOT insurance. Calling not having insurance, "insurance" defies logic at a basic level.
 
Salty said:
"Call it what you like" is the problem. You may call it insurance, but it's not insurance. You're misusing the word that actually has a meaning. Not having insurance is NOT insurance. Calling not having insurance, "insurance" defies logic at a basic level.
Click to expand...

You still have not shown ANY regulation that requires any amount of insurance for Part 91 flying.

And where the gov does mandate insurance, it is a bit lower than 1 million.

The Maryland auto insurance requirements are:
  • $30,000 for bodily injury
  • $60,000 for 2 or more people
  • $15,000 property damage

That goes a long way if you hit a brand new $70,000 (not uncommon) coming off the lot and injure someone.

Heck, the standard $1 million/$100K does doesn't much either. The hospital bill for my crash experience was $1.2 million.
 
Pinecone said:
You still have not shown ANY regulation that requires any amount of insurance for Part 91 flying.

And where the gov does mandate insurance, it is a bit lower than 1 million.

The Maryland auto insurance requirements are:
  • $30,000 for bodily injury
  • $60,000 for 2 or more people
  • $15,000 property damage

That goes a long way if you hit a brand new $70,000 (not uncommon) coming off the lot and injure someone.

Heck, the standard $1 million/$100K does doesn't much either. The hospital bill for my crash experience was $1.2 million.
Click to expand...
So? I've never claimed there was a requirement. I think you misunderstood my actual argument.
 
Clip4 said:
Call it what you like, please post the regulation you believe prohibits any self insurance plan for a Part 91 operator.
Click to expand...

Insurance, self or otherwise isn't required, but you're abusing the term.

Self-insurance doesn't mean "I'll just eat the costs if I get sued." It means that you've allocated funds specifically for that purpose. It's nearly NEVER done for liability claims. The term primarily is used for health care and related plans.

As for covering your aircraft hull, if you don't have a lienholder that is forcing the issue, it's up to you to you whether you fly uninsured for that or not based on what you are prepare to happen if you ball it up.

For liability, it's less clear that you want to go uninsured. The advantage of a liability policy is that the insurer will defend against a legal case against you or settle and that settlement always involves waiving further claims. Most owner-pilots fit into one of two categories: those without a whole lot of assets that a judgement is going to be a long lasting significant harm and those who have enough assets to be a big target to a greedy plaintiff.
 
Salty said:
So? I've never claimed there was a requirement. I think you misunderstood my actual argument.
Click to expand...

Salty said:
Self insurance is government regulated. To call yourself self insured you must meet their requirements, which are far more strict than if you use another insurance agency. If you don't, you are "not insured" - rather than "self insured". They are not the same thing.
Click to expand...

What regulations? You imply that people are doing something wrong, but how can they if there is no requirement for insurance????
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top