1 faa failure and two 121 failures, how to move forward

Hengelo said:
Holy Cow the “kids these days” energy here is eye watering. Sounds like a room full of bitter old dudes.

Stubben ones at that.

To quote the younger generation “You mad bro? You sound mad.”
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The difference between knowledge and wisdom? Age and experience.

It's not the fault of the kids, it's how they've been raised.
 
dmspilot said:
There have always been successful and unsuccessful people, responsible and irresponsible, those who can handle constructive criticism and those who can't. Seems like you are using the thread to make a cheap shot at an entire demographic and it doesn't even have any relevance to the thread.
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Then you need to read what I'm actually writing instead of what you imagine.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Not bitter. Just pragmatic. I was raised in the beginning of the participation trophy trend. I was lucky to have strong male role models in school, home and church. There is a lot of really twisted crap being taught in school these days. Having two teenagers at home I get the pleasure of having to un**** what the schools do on the reg.
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The kids are not responsible for how they've been raised or what they've been taught.
Our feelings don't matter to the world, our performance does.
 
I don’t know. Two OE busts, back to back, same airline??
It does give one pause.
 
dmspilot said:
What part is strange?
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The part about apparently getting through the entire syllabus, to include MTs/MV, and then stumbling twice on LOE. I'm sure all shops are a bit different, and I only have my own for reference, but LOFT/LOE were a lot easier than MV at mine. And you'd think someone struggling to apply the MT stuff in a practical setting such as LOE, might trip up in the pre-LOE LOFTs. I'm sure it happens, as there must have been a reason they preemptively hard scheduled all of us for an additional LOE sim the next day just in case (just like they did for the day after MV), but I didn't know anyone who needed it (unlike the MV). I guess that is a roundabout way of agreeing that it sounds as if OP shouldn't have been anywhere near a sim that/those days. But also sounds like, provided he/she were provided honest feedback and grading prior to those events, the OP had a bad day and has the abilities to recover.
 
35 AoA said:
The part about apparently getting through the entire syllabus, to include MTs/MV, and then stumbling twice on LOE. I'm sure all shops are a bit different, and I only have my own for reference, but LOFT/LOE were a lot easier than MV at mine. And you'd think someone struggling to apply the MT stuff in a practical setting such as LOE, might trip up in the pre-LOE LOFTs. I'm sure it happens, as there must have been a reason they preemptively hard scheduled all of us for an additional LOE sim the next day just in case (just like they did for the day after MV), but I didn't know anyone who needed it (unlike the MV). I guess that is a roundabout way of agreeing that it sounds as if OP shouldn't have been anywhere near a sim that/those days. But also sounds like, provided he/she were provided honest feedback and grading prior to those events, the OP had a bad day and has the abilities to recover.
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I'm not familiar with the inner workings of AQP and thought he was talking about operating experience. My mistake.
 
Kids these days…
School these days..
Your feelings don’t matter…
Raised wrong…
Participation trophies…
You’re imagining things…

you mad bro? You sound mad
 
Hengelo said:
Kids these days…
School these days..
Your feelings don’t matter…
Raised wrong…
Participation trophies…
You’re imagining things…

you mad bro? You sound mad
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upload_2022-9-3_10-5-41.jpeg
 
There is a balance between everyone gets a trophy, and it doesn't matter that your parent is dying, get out there and fly. I struggled a bit during the MV portion of my recent training, and got an extra sim session. One of the first things they asked me was if I had anything going on in my personal life. I appreciated the fact that they asked me that. And I didn't, I was just struggling.
 
How is it possible to fail LOE.??

I mean in the 207 and Navajo I told the guys if you kill me you fail...
 
dmspilot said:
I'm not familiar with the inner workings of AQP and thought he was talking about operating experience. My mistake.
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To be fair, other airlines might use slightly different terminology than mine, so you could be right. At my shop, your type rating is issued based on completion of systems test/oral + MV check sim + LOE check sim. LOE being the final check event before you go out the door for OE in the aircraft. I never actually cared enough to get a straight answer, but I believe all 3 of those events are considered to be "jeopardy" events in the AQP system.
 
Say what you want about the "kids these days" comments. I work with several 20 and 30 somethings it is funny how even they (the successful ones) recognize their peer group is a bit of a mess. If you think it's bad now wait till these Covid kids grow up. We ain't seen nothing yet. I work in IT in higher ed and I see a lot of this demographic and probably the biggest issue I see is them being told they can be anything they want. Well sure you can, doesn't mean there are jobs there or you can make a living at it, or more importantly pay off their 150K in student loans. I guess all the rest of us will be picking up the tab for that.
 
Hello guys, I am the OP here. I just wanted to post an update for all of you, and for future people who are/were in the same boat as me about to lose hope, Googled around, and came up upon this thread.

I was able to get picked up by a regional airline (actually, I was given two interviews for two different airlines), but settled for one of them, an unnamed one.

I passed everything with blind colors first try, and my checkride was completed recently and I am now an ATP. Currently waiting for IOE to fly the CRJ. The examiner (APD) said it was one of the best rides he'd ever conducted.

I remembered this thread I created a few months back, and decided to update it.

No thanks to all those who were negative in this thread, and a BIG thanks to those who were positive. Especially those who personally inboxed me.

I will see you guys out on the line!
 
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Johnny delmi said:
Hello guys, I am the OP here. I just wanted to post an update for all of you, and for future people who are/were in the same boat as me about to lose hope, Googled around, and came up upon this thread.

I was able to get picked up by a regional airline (actually, I was given two interviews for two different airlines), but settled for one of them, an unnamed one.

I passed everything with blind colors first try, and my checkride was completed recently and I am now an ATP. Currently waiting for IOE to fly the CRJ. The examiner (APD) said it was one of the best rides he'd ever conducted.

I remembered this thread I created a few months back, and decided to update it.

No thanks to all those who were negative in this thread, and a BIG thanks to those who were positive. Especially those who personally I boxed me.

I will see you guys out on the line!
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So you didn’t really want honest opinions from the group, but only those which supported you?

Regardless, I’m happy it worked out for you.
 
Johnny delmi said:
Hello guys, I am the OP here. I just wanted to post an update for all of you, and for future people who are/were in the same boat as me about to lose hope, Googled around, and came up upon this thread.

I was able to get picked up by a regional airline (actually, I was given two interviews for two different airlines), but settled for one of them, an unnamed one.

I passed everything with blind colors first try, and my checkride was completed recently and I am now an ATP. Currently waiting for IOE to fly the CRJ. The examiner (APD) said it was one of the best rides he'd ever conducted.

I remembered this thread I created a few months back, and decided to update it.

No thanks to all those who were negative in this thread, and a BIG thanks to those who were positive. Especially those who personally inboxed me.

I will see you guys out on the line!
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Glad you made it through at least most of the way. Good luck with the remainder of your training!
 
Hengelo said:
You're mad too huh?
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You seem to be looking for a response, a little attention, so here you go.

And this is a very typical response from a certain generation.
Functionally, it says "Your opinion conflicts with mine, therefore it cannot be valid and must therefore be belittled or mocked since it is invalid"

Now, some questions for you Hengelo.
Are you honestly suggesting society today is the same as it was 20, 30, 40 years ago?
Are you honestly suggesting the societal norms and mores are the same?

If you answered yes, to either of the above, we're done here and I appreciate your attention. If you'll provide your address I'll send you a gold star in the mail as I'm sure you'll appreciate it.

If you answered no, then explain why there can only be one valid interpretation of the changes. Also, provide citations as to what determines the valid interpretation and please don't say "I do".
 
Johnny delmi said:
Hello guys, I am the OP here. I just wanted to post an update for all of you, and for future people who are/were in the same boat as me about to lose hope, Googled around, and came up upon this thread.

I was able to get picked up by a regional airline (actually, I was given two interviews for two different airlines), but settled for one of them, an unnamed one.

I passed everything with blind colors first try, and my checkride was completed recently and I am now an ATP. Currently waiting for IOE to fly the CRJ. The examiner (APD) said it was one of the best rides he'd ever conducted.

I remembered this thread I created a few months back, and decided to update it.

No thanks to all those who were negative in this thread, and a BIG thanks to those who were positive. Especially those who personally inboxed me.

I will see you guys out on the line!
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Congrats, way to persist!!

Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense.

-- Winston Churchill
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Congrats! What do you think made the difference this time around? What did you do differently?
 
First off congrats to the OP for persevering. Going through indoc, sims and all that stuff at two different companies, and making it happen is something you should be proud of. If anything shows you are dedicated. Get some flight time and successful recurrent training behind you and no major airline is going to care about the initial failure.


35 AoA said:
To be fair, other airlines might use slightly different terminology than mine, so you could be right. At my shop, your type rating is issued based on completion of systems test/oral + MV check sim + LOE check sim. LOE being the final check event before you go out the door for OE in the aircraft. I never actually cared enough to get a straight answer, but I believe all 3 of those events are considered to be "jeopardy" events in the AQP system.
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As far as I know all AQP systems operate in a similar manner. The critical events are your KV (knowledge validation) MV (maneuvers validation) and LOE (line operations evaluation?) Prior to KV you have a few weeks of ground school and some tests, including a mock KV. MV and LOE comes at the end of simulator training.

I went through this process at a regional not too long ago and I was surprised at the number of people who had trouble with LOE. On paper, the MV is the hard one, its an hour and a half of approaches, landings, engine failures, V1 cuts, single engine ILS with a single engine missed approach. The LOE should be easier, its a routine flight from point A to point B with some average adverse weather.

If I had to venture a guess as to why the LOE was so difficult for some, I think it is because the training departments focus the sim time heavily in favor of the MV work, since those hand flying skills can't be developed with flashcards or a paper tiger. The LOE is focused on checklists, flows, limitations, procedures, briefings etc... it takes a lot of focused self-study to get proficient at that outside of the simulator time they give you.

LOE is the final checkride before you go out to fly the airplane on revenue flights on IOE (initial operating experience). With AQP the training and checkrides are the same for an ATP with 5000 hours in type or a 1500 hour flight instructor from riddle. I happened to take my LOE with the director of the training department who rarely gives checkrides. When we finished he casually asked me to confirm if I needed an ATP and Type rating.. I thought it was kind of a funny question "well if you're just handing them out, sure!"
 
Johnny delmi said:
Hello guys, I am the OP here. I just wanted to post an update for all of you, and for future people who are/were in the same boat as me about to lose hope, Googled around, and came up upon this thread.

I was able to get picked up by a regional airline (actually, I was given two interviews for two different airlines), but settled for one of them, an unnamed one.

I passed everything with blind colors first try, and my checkride was completed recently and I am now an ATP. Currently waiting for IOE to fly the CRJ. The examiner (APD) said it was one of the best rides he'd ever conducted.

I remembered this thread I created a few months back, and decided to update it.

No thanks to all those who were negative in this thread, and a BIG thanks to those who were positive. Especially those who personally inboxed me.

I will see you guys out on the line!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update, the internets need more of this!
Congrats on the perseverance and for calling out the negativity!
 
35 AoA said:
To be fair, other airlines might use slightly different terminology than mine, so you could be right. At my shop, your type rating is issued based on completion of systems test/oral + MV check sim + LOE check sim. LOE being the final check event before you go out the door for OE in the aircraft. I never actually cared enough to get a straight answer, but I believe all 3 of those events are considered to be "jeopardy" events in the AQP system.
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The only jeopardy event is the LOE. You can get some mulligans in the MV. AQP makes it pretty difficult to not pass a training program since everything is train to proficiency except for the LOE. Everything follows a script and there’s little room to deviate from the script so you’ll know what’s coming.
 
Hey OP - congrats again. Please share what you did differently this time. Thanks!!
 
dmspilot said:
Had more training.
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Maybe. Or maybe did it when personal things didn’t interfere. Or gave himself time to deal with something personal and when resolved has head in the game for test. DK
 
This was an interesting exchange:

Thread OP:
No thanks to all those who were negative in this thread, and a BIG thanks to those who were positive.

Followed by:
"So you didn’t really want honest opinions from the group, but only those which supported you?"

When people ask for help they want to hear how they can move forward and achieve their goals. Speaking in general if someone thinks the person should give up their dream and go away then they should just keep quiet. It's the old saying; if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Keep it positive.


 
E.W. said:
This was an interesting exchange:

Thread OP:
No thanks to all those who were negative in this thread, and a BIG thanks to those who were positive.

Followed by:
"So you didn’t really want honest opinions from the group, but only those which supported you?"

When people ask for help they want to hear how they can move forward and achieve their goals. Speaking in general if someone thinks the person should give up their dream and go away then they should just keep quiet. It's the old saying; if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Keep it positive.
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If people want only the positive advice that they want, they should ask someone they trust rather than half the Internet.
 
It is actually “unkind” to be positive if it leaves out necessary information even if that might be challenging. Need to be positive and complete, and honest.

Also not helpful if only say “you can’t do it” vs how you might overcome it. But sometimes you need to hear you won’t play professional football, be an astronaut, etc.
 
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E.W. said:
It's the old saying; if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.
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I would also suggest that “the old saying” applies to volunteering information when the person isn’t looking for information. Once the question is thrown out there, honesty is more appropriate than “only positivity”.
 
WDD said:
... But sometimes you need to hear you won’t play professional football, be an astronaut, etc.
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Bear in mind the OP specifically asked for advice on "how to move forward". Not how to move backward.

Telling them to give up comes across as self-centered arrogance. No one can know or decide if someone should or shouldn't be a pilot. That's just pretending to be God.
 
E.W. said:
Telling them to give up comes across as self-centered arrogance. No one can know or decide if someone should or shouldn't be a pilot. That's just pretending to be God.
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And while we’re at it, I don’t recall anybody asking for advice on how to answer the OP, so maybe you should follow he old saying,
E.W. said:
if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Keep it positive.
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Hey guys, just figured I'd pass along a small update since I've had a couple of people message me asking where I am at now, and also people in my situation asking what they should since they are in a similar predicament. Sometimes I forget I made this thread, but the email notifications I get that someone has messaged me on here, makes me come back, lol.

I've recently passed recurrent at my regional, then have gotten calls to interview with Southwest, Spirit, Atlas, and Frontier. I've already interviewed with one of them so far. So life is going good, even though I thought I was a complete failure!
 
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