KWVI Watsonville MId Air, Multiple Fatalities

CaptainDoug said:
The Baron's (B58's) max gear extension speed is just about 155 knots, if I remember correctly -
it's been years since I've flown one. If it's not that exactly, it's very close to that - 152 maybe.

If the Baron pilot was doing a high-speed pass, he should have been at pattern
altitude for twins - which is 1,500' AGL. Going down low at that high rate of
speed makes no sense - it's not only idiotic, it's fatally dangerous!
Click to expand...

This accident was a Cessna C340 and has a gear extension speed of 140 knots
 
If anything good has come out of this accident is there is a lot of talk and a lot of working through different solutions to this problem. For what I can tell, you can not legislate good situational awareness and experience. As unfortunate as this accident was, based on what I read it was bound to happen. All we can do is learn from these three souls and hope to make the correct call when we are in that situation.
 
francisco collazos said:
If anything good has come out of this accident is there is a lot of talk and a lot of working through different solutions to this problem. For what I can tell, you can not legislate good situational awareness and experience. As unfortunate as this accident was, based on what I read it was bound to happen. All we can do is learn from these three souls and hope to make the correct call when we are in that situation.
Click to expand...
Well put. I'm gonna label this the "Probable Cause."
 
francisco collazos said:
If anything good has come out of this accident is there is a lot of talk and a lot of working through different solutions to this problem. For what I can tell, you can not legislate good situational awareness and experience. As unfortunate as this accident was, based on what I read it was bound to happen. All we can do is learn from these three souls and hope to make the correct call when we are in that situation.
Click to expand...

The problem is that only a small minority of pilots are here discussing.

And the likelihood is that pilots like Capt. Balls-to-the-Wall are even less likely to be participating.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
The problem is that only a small minority of pilots are here discussing.

And the likelihood is that pilots like Capt. Balls-to-the-Wall are even less likely to be participating.
Click to expand...

True but I still haven't gotten my PPL yet (end of the month I hope) and I have learned a lot from these discussions. Next time i'm in the pattern turning crosswind to downwind and someone calls a 5 mi final, I am sure as hell going to pay attention and think through my options. Of course it's not just me, it's me, my wife, my two kids, my mom, my 3 dogs, and my 1 cat. Oh and my sister, my boss my girlfriend, my best friend..etc
 
francisco collazos said:
True but I still haven't gotten my PPL yet (end of the month I hope) and I have learned a lot from these discussions. Next time i'm in the pattern turning crosswind to downwind and someone calls a 5 mi final, I am sure as hell going to pay attention and think through my options. Of course it's not just me, it's me, my wife, my two kids, my mom, my 3 dogs, and my 1 cat. Oh and my sister, my boss my girlfriend, my best friend..etc
Click to expand...
....."...I am sure as hell going to pay attention and think through my options...".....
Once again. well put. I declare this thread a success.
 
francisco collazos said:
Next time i'm in the pattern turning crosswind to downwind and someone calls a 5 mi final, I am sure as hell going to pay attention and think through my options.
Click to expand...

At this point in your training what do you believe would be your options? Serious question ...
 
wanttaja said:
Wasn't a Baron, was a Cessna 340. Gear speed for a 340 is 140 knots.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...
Ron, thanks for the correction - I forgot about that.

I didn't go back and check the thread even though I commentated
on it a couple of weeks ago. I mentioned the Baron 58 in the
other post too - but that was just to compare similar class twins
because I thought that they probably have similar gear extension
speeds. I definitely remember (without rereading
the thread and you pointing it out) that it was a Cessna 310 that
barreled in at a dangerously high speed down low.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
The problem is that only a small minority of pilots are here discussing.
Click to expand...

donjohnston said:
I would think most people learn just fine by reading and listening.
Click to expand...

Let me rephrase. We can all feel good that the small number or POA members here read, listened, and discussed this issue, and that we educated ourselves.

There were 671,900 certificated pilots in the US in 2020. The likelihood that even a fraction of the pilots in any airport airspace have read this thread is very, very low.
 
Shawn said:
Tell me again how the twin pilots failure to "see and avoid" regardless of who may have had right of way was not at fault here?

https://www.ksbw.com/article/ntsb-r...kq_vSPIynJ1JFugwNHSxwvAaaChwoUaZN0fgzb9G5WT50
Click to expand...
Wow, that photo taken by the office girl had to have been just as the 340 hit the 152. I don't see a landing gear, so I'm wondering if the camera was at the ready expecting a fly-by? The pattern the 152 was flying doesn't look very precise to me. Trying to beat out the 340 from a too-wide downwind? Are those vertical lines on the map representing altitude taken at the exact same time? If you count back about 10 or 12 each, then the 152 was looking at the 340 out his passenger window 90° to his right. It should have been obvious they were on a collision course if that's the case. Had it been more of a square base he could have turned right and followed. As it is, he could simply have stopped the descent and started climbing in just about any direction to avoid the collision, for those suffering from nightmares of being caught like him with nowhere to go.
 
Salty said:
I don't see gear.
Click to expand...
Or flaps. Throttle, prop? More and more, it seems like the twin pilot suffered some kind of cognitive disconnect: saying his intentions clearly ("full stop"), but not manipulating the controls of his aircraft to accomplish his stated goals.
 
It boggles my mind even more. The low wing was below the high wing. How did they not see and avoid?
 
exncsurfer said:
View attachment 110547

Wow, looks like he was just under the 152, a little less bank and we wouldn't be reading this thread.
Click to expand...

Was about to make the same post. That's a lot of bank, and at the speed he was traveling, I'm curious what the structural loading was.

Salty said:
I don't see gear.
Click to expand...

Yup. The collision map in the report has him at ~700' from the threshold. That's just over 2 seconds at 180 knots.

No clue how he was going to descend, lower gear, slow enough to drop out of ground effect, and stop before the end of the runway even if the impact didn't happen.

What's the gear extension time on a 340?
 
donjohnston said:
Really?

I think it's been posted about a half dozen times.

Here it is for the 7th time.

The gear extension speed for the 340 is 140kts :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I think he was asking about the actual number of seconds it takes to deploy the landing gear. I'm guessing 4-8s? But more than 2s for sure.
 
donjohnston said:
Really?

I think it's been posted about a half dozen times.

Here it is for the 7th time.

The gear extension speed for the 340 is 140kts :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Relax and take a deep breath, Don. Read it again.

It’s going to be OK. :rolleyes:
 
exncsurfer said:
View attachment 110547

Wow, looks like he was just under the 152, a little less bank and we wouldn't be reading this thread. (but its possible he never saw him anyway)

Among the many other things that could've saved the day.

So, in general would you think emergency evasive action would be better served with pitch vs. bank? Takes a little time to establish a turn.
Click to expand...
I was thinking the same when I saw this photo. Just a slightly diff bank angle…. Tragic.
 
CLOSE THROTTLES, extend gear (C340 sacrifices the gear doors), save your life. That’s basically what I did 10 years ago at FISKE as a Baron descended on top of me, though my gear was already down.

Expedited level descent, it is…..

if the Google Earth track is correct, Mr C152 will be found at fault although there was enough boneheadedness all around.
 
bbchien said:
CLOSE THROTTLES, extend gear (C340 sacrifices the gear doors), save your life. That’s basically what I did 10 years ago at FISKE as a Baron descended on top of me, though my gear was already down.

Expedited level descent, it is…..

if the Google Earth track is correct, Mr C152 will be found at fault although there was enough boneheadedness all around.
Click to expand...

Sad thing is, if the 340 hadn’t been flying like a mad man himself, he would have been cussing out the 152 while going around, but at least they’d all be alive.
 
Daleandee said:
At this point in your training what do you believe would be your options? Serious question ...
Click to expand...

I think for a lot of us newbees, when we are learning to fly there is a lot of information. In fact information overload is a thing and this as a person that went to veterinary school. I have never experienced information overload as I have learning to fly. So what does the new pilot tend to do. Well I think the pilot will focus on certain things and filter out other things. I think about the times early on while flying that the tower said something to you and the CFI say to you...did you catch that? We you didn't because you were busy flying the plane. A newbe in the pattern might be busy flying the plane and not really thinking about what is happening around he/her. To me, I will really listen to the call outs ESPECIALLY any callouts while on final and the distance too. Where am I in relation to the other aircraft because it can be life or death.

Also we have the benefit of hind sight in our analysis. Has anyone ever had a car pass them at 140 mi? I haven't but I imagine that the time between seeing them and what you can actually do is probably seconds if not less. Lets not forget that the C152 pilot had no idea this guy was approaching at 180mi
 
bbchien said:
if the Google Earth track is correct, Mr C152 will be found at fault although there was enough boneheadedness all around.
Click to expand...
What's the 152's track based on? I thought its ADS-B out wasn't operating.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
What's the 152's track based on? I thought its ADS-B out wasn't operating.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...

The C152 was pinging on 978mhz. A number of the services we commonly use like FlightAware can't see 978 signals unless the plane is closer to 1800' in the Watsonville area. Other services did have the ADSB content.

I know the gal who took the picture, know the people who own & manage the C152, and have only crossed paths with the C152 pilot and knew who he was. I also covered the accident as a reporter for a local radio station. The whole situation is pretty grizzly as a witness to the wreckage minutes after the crash.

Hopefully none of you ever see anything like this in your lifetime. It's distressing to hear all the armchair quarterbacking. Haven't yet met anyone at the airport who holds the C152 pilot accountable in any manner.
 
NordicDave said:
....I also covered the accident as a reporter for a local radio station. The whole situation is pretty grizzly as a witness to the wreckage minutes after the crash.

Hopefully none of you ever see anything like this in your lifetime. It's distressing to hear all the armchair quarterbacking. Haven't yet met anyone at the airport who holds the C152 pilot accountable in any manner.
Click to expand...

and your reporting wasn't biased at all, not one bit, I'm sure.
 
It seems to me that the armchair quarterbacking is necessary for the purpose of avoiding suffering the same fate ourselves. As for accountability, I doubt that matters to the deceased. Maybe it would have some impact on the insurance companies.

Maybe the FAA should have some accountability for writing confusing guidance, though.
 
It may be difficult to fully relate to these speeds in a close pass situation.

Play the short video below to get a perspective from the 152 point of view.

The second pass of these two cars at 0:25 calculates to 180 knots in the left lane and 43 knots in the right lane. Not exactly the same speeds as this incident, but really close.

The closure rate is stunning, and adds some additional insight into what a low time, saturated student pilot was seeing and doing.


Remember, this happened 700' from the runway threshold.
 
Last edited:
I think somebody said he was not a student pilot.
 
o_Oo_Oo_O
ElPaso Pilot said:
It may be difficult to fully relate to these speeds in a close pass situation.

Play the short video below to get a perspective from the 152 point of view.

The second pass of these two cars at 0:25 calculates to 180 knots in the left lane and 43 knots in the right lane. Not exactly the same speeds as this incident, but really close.

The closure rate is stunning, and adds some additional insight into what a low time, saturated student pilot was seeing and doing.


Remember, this happened 700' from the runway threshold.
Click to expand...
But the 152 was at fault. o_O
 
Salty said:
o_Oo_Oo_O
But the 152 was at fault. o_O
Click to expand...

If the slow car merged left into the lane and got clobbered by the fast car, I'd say the lion's share of blame might be his.

Glad we're not judging this using highway rules. :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top